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michael_j_fay

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2003, 06:06:14 AM »
Pat Mucci:

The Donald Ross Society has worked for 14 years to undo these things and prevent them from happening. We have been somewhat successful but cannot affect the will of the members of the Clubs. It is their Club and their property.

What really annoys me is the the ASGCA has never gotten behind restoration. I can understand their motivation. The ex-President of the ASGCA has participated in the Renovation College which I see as a very destructive force to Classic designs. Brad Klein has countered with a Restoration University which should be applauded.

Renovation College is "give me a million dollars, I will remove all the classic features, smooth out your greens and you will save $ 10,000 a year in maintenence". A more deplorable scenario I cannot imagine.

I have said before that any Architect that wants to work on a Classic design should be forced to fix at very least ten bad golf courses. This will never happen because the budding Architect cannot resist to have a course referred to as a Ross/Jerkberger design. It is the nature of the beast.

In the past 14 years the Donald Ross Society has participated in some 110 restoration projects. Our input has been limited by our finances. What effect we have had is important at least to those of us that have followed the trend.

I cannot say that we have been 100% effective, but I will say that a Green Chair will rarely go hog wild in renovation as they did back in the 50's and 60's.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2003, 09:11:56 AM »
Tom MacWood,

It would seem to be no more of an effort then the original modification that altered the original golf course.

I think the restoration process might look embarrassing for a club, an admission that they degraded their golf course and are now trying to undo those changes.  But, if it's for the good of the golf course and the members, I can't see why more clubs don't undo work that disfigured their course in the past.

It would also seem that enough time has lapsed since those in power made the renovations that those currently in power aren't impeded by undoing their handiwork.

But, one only has to look at GCGC, where ONE hole is totally out of context with the rest of the golf course, and ask yourself, why hasn't this hole been restored ?

Some objections that I've heard are"

It will disrupt play for the membership
It will cost money.
It's not such a bad hole the way it is.
It may not have the same quality putting surface.

I think that there may be a natural resistance to change, even change for the better, yet, I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say that the new hole is better than the old hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2003, 09:28:22 AM »
"I think the restoration process might look embarrassing for a club, an admission that they degraded their golf course and are now trying to undo those changes.  But, if it's for the good of the golf course and the members, I can't see why more clubs don't undo work that disfigured their course in the past."

Interesting conjecture...unfortunately for Scioto the reality is restoration would be impossible because the changes were so drastic.

12th at GCGC another example of Jones and Wilson in their heyday.

It might useful to thoroughly document that dark era and the impact that it had upon so many grand courses. I suspect many of these clubs are not aware of how good their courses were prior to the changes - courses like Bel-Air, Hollywood, Ponte Vedra, Lakeside, Sea Island, Oakland Hills and Scioto.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2003, 09:58:45 AM »
Messrs. Fay and Klein,

Just curious, were either of you consulted or even contacted about the extensive renovation taking place at Belle Meade CC in Nashville?  After RTJ's and then Gary Roger Baird's work all that remained of Ross' course was the routing.  

I'm scheduled to get a look this month, but from the road the place looks like ground zero and I understand the course is closed for the year while Rees Jones does the job.  Great opportunity for restoration, but likes like a complete renovation - again.

Regards,

Mike

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2003, 10:42:28 AM »
Micheal,

Not sure if you're referring to me as a frequent participant on this board, or to any ex ASGCA President in general.  Also, I would like to know if you have attended any of the Remodeling U programs we have offered?

I agree that ASGCA has not endorsed the restoration trend as a cure all for every course - because frankly it isn't, except for about 2% of the classic courses in the country - but I have participated as a panelist in two of these, and in both, one of the first topics addressed is deciding whether to restore, sympathetically renovate, or rebuild in a new image.  Of course, we don't make decisions for you, just explore what might influence the decision.  We then cover the entire process and likely problems for those who need to know, which are similar whether you restore or remodel completely, like selling the program, timing it, costing it, etc.

While not a Ross course, I have just completed what started as a restoration, but ended as a sympathetic renovation.  In that case, it was hard for the members to consider returning the course to its exact original state because:

maintenance needs are different
some bunkers don't come into play as intended
members have some good memories of holes as they are now
some renovated holes are frankly better than the originals

There are a lot of tough questions any renovation project need to answer.  pat answers of "we need to restore" don't really cut it.  As a few here have noted, I find it difficult to attribute outright bad motives to either architects or greens chairmen who precipitated a renovation.  There was almost always a good reason for it in their minds.  That they didn't have the hindsight we can now have in making their decisions, is of course, obvious. That they may want to improve the course - not every hole of every golden age architect was great - for the members who pay dues now, rather than keep it as it was for the sake of concerned outsiders is also understandable.

For all we know, history will reflect as badly on this era of pure restoration, considering it an unfortunate, misguided fad, or quaint "time piece" of thinking, like bellbottom pants from the 70's, as it does right now on the 50's era remodels.  In fact, I would almost count on it, because historic revisionism has always been with us, and we are currently teaching the next generation well how to do that!

Just my (50%) opinion, and (50%) attempt to stir the pot. ;)


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2003, 12:32:08 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Most of the bunker removal at Hollywood was done internally, by the club, without an architect.

Bunker removal, is so much easier than the re-introduction or restoration of bunkers, which often necesitates an architect's involvement.

Brad Klein,

I was thinking about your post relative to "salesmanship".

Before a salesman can make his pitch, he has to get your attention, he has to get in the front door and be given an opportunity to get in front of you and do his magic.

But, once again, these fellows didn't just show up at a club.

The club had to develop the notion that they needed to amend their golf course, internally, then invite these fellows in to make a presentation, based on the clubs idea that they needed to make changes to their golf course.

While the architect may have been the instrument of change, the genesis for the idea/project had to come from within the club, amongst the members or the power base.

Perhaps it was the fad at the time, to update or modernize your old course.

But, in the ultimate, it is the membership/power base at a golf club that bears the responsibility to preserve their architecture and the blame/responsibility for disfiguring their golf course.

The architect is but a catalyst.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2003, 01:02:02 PM »
Obviously you missed my point.  Hollywood and the other courses hired these men during this dark era to modernize their courses. (Hollywood hired Wilson.) The point I was trying to make is these clubs most likely have no idea their golf courses were once considered among the very best in the world. If someone documented the excellence of these courses pre-RTJ and Wilson, it might enlighten them....and you too.

Are you familar with RTJ's self-promotional activities in the 40's and early 50's. He built his career upon his redesign work at ANGC and Oakland Hills -  the Monster that Hogan slayed. Are you familar with Red Hoffman?

Many of these clubs that hired RTJ and Wilson had aspirations to host major championships. The USGA fed the notion and these guys took advantage of the situation. With so many high profile courses going this route it became a domino effect and the second teir courses also wanted to keep up with the Joneses - no pun intended.

Can you name a US Open venue of that era that didn't hire one of these guys - there weren't many? In Ohio Wilson redesigned Scioto, Columbus and Morraine - all were interested in hosting majors. RTJ redid Firestone.

Dr. Kevorkian didn't just show up the door step either--but he was sure a master of publicizing his activities. Do you see the connection Dr.Death and the Open Doctor?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2003, 03:07:18 PM »
Tom MacWood,

The Hollywood membership was fully aware of their golf course's greatness, that it was amongst the very best in the world.  It had been intended to design a championship golf course in the early beginings, and, the finished product fulfilled the mandate.

I think the the championship nature of the design, the enormous number and variety of the bunkers overwhelmed the evolving membership, who began removing the bunkers as each new green chairman took office, catering to the pet peeves of his crowd.

If Pine Valley had a "typical" membership, I can assure you that changes would have been forced onto the golf course by the membership, not outside architects.

I've known Red Hoffman my entire golfing life.

Below is a list of the US OPEN courses that Jones or Wilson worked on immediately prior to a US OPEN  What did they do, other then adding tee length at the courses that they worked on ?

Year  Course            Did Jones or Wilson work on them

1940  Canterbury          NO
1941  Colonial               NO
1946  Canterbury          NO
1947  St Louis              NO
1948  Riviera                NO
1949  Medinah              NO
1950  Merion                NO
1951  Oakland Hills S     YES  JONES
1952  Northwood           NO
1953  Oakmont              NO
1954  Baltusrol               YES  JONES
1955  Olympic                YES  JONES
1956  Oak Hill                 YES  JONES
1957  Inverness              YES  WILSON
1958  Southern HIlls        YES  JONES
1959  Winged Foot          YES JONES
1960  Cherry Hills            NO
1961  Oakland Hills S       NO
1962  Oakmont               NO
1963  The Country Club    NO
1964  Congressional         NO
1965  Bellerive                NO
1966  Olympic                 NO
1967  Baltusrol L             NO
1968  Oak Hill E              YES  JONES
1969  Champions             NO
1970  Hazeltine               NO
1971  Merion                   YES  WILSON
1972  Pebble Beach           NO
1973  Oakmont                 NO
1974  Winged Foot            NO
1975  Medinah                  NO
1976  Atlanta Athletic Club  NO  
1977  Southern Hills            NO
1978  Cherry Hills               NO
1979  Inverness                 NO
1980  Baltusrol L                NO
1981  Merion                     NO
1982  Pebble Beach            NO
1983  Oakmont                  NO
1984  Winged Foot             NO
1985  Oakland Hills   S        YES  JONES
1986  Shinnecock Hills         NO
1987  Olympic                   NO
1988  The Country Club      NO
1989  Oak Hill                    NO
1990  Medinah                   NO
1991  Hazeltine                  NO
1992  Pebble Beach            NO
1993  Baltusrol  L               NO
1994  Oakmont                  NO
1995  Shinnecock Hills         NO
1996  Oakland Hills             NO

The facts don't seem to match with your allegation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

T_MacWood

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2003, 04:28:55 PM »
Try to stay focused. We are talking about the 50's and 60's. You need to go back re-check your facts. You missed a few.

And knowing Red all your life I'm sure you are aware of the publicity-hype machine Trent created that he was an intregal part of (being his ghost writer and publicist).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2003, 04:38:21 PM »
Pat -

I'm not entirely sure the point you are trying to make, but I am not sure you are including all the facts.

1.  You skipped years. 1951, 1961, 1967, 1968, 1980, 1985
The US Open was played on Oakland Hills (51, 61 & 85), Baltusrol (67 & 80), Oak Hill (68)

2.  Bellerive and Hazeltine were designed by RTJ, Sr.

3.  I think 9 holes from Congressional Blue was built by RTJ, Sr.

I am sure you had a reason for doing it, but for someone who is continually asking people to present findings of facts and decrying bias and misleading tactics, I would have thought you would have avoided this appearance of impropriety.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2003, 06:12:52 PM »
Dan Grossman,

Courses designed and built by RTJ can't be considered as courses where he altered/disfigured the original architects work, it was his own work, not someone elses.

RTJ modified Baltusrol Lower in 1952 two years before the 1954 US OPEN, but didn't do anything further to the course, which went on to host the 1967, 1980, and 1993 US OPENs.

I concede that Oakland Hills was his toy, with alterations being done to the South course in 1950, 1972, and 1984 and the North course in  1953.

With respect to Oak Hill, he worked on the course in 1956, and I listed that, I missed the 1967 work he did.
I will amend my list to be all inclusive, and I'll continue it a little further.

The questions are, on the courses that he worked on, what was the extent of his work.  If it was adding length to the tees, I don't find that objectionable. and did he damage or improve the holes he worked on, such as the 4th at Baltusrol Lower ?

One simply can't make the statement that he and Dick Wilson ruined golf courses at the USGA's suggestion, in preperation for the US OPENs.  One has to examine the actual work done on each hole and evaluate its merits.

Dick Wilson worked on two OPEN courses in about 50 years, and the question is, what was the scope of his work at Merion and Inverness ?  Did he irrepairably damage both courses ?  I think not.  Everyone continues to rave about Merion, so I can't see that his hand harmed the golf course one bit, and I never heard anyone claim that he harmed Inverness.  Wilson either added or renovated 28 bunkers and removed several others that the green chairman refered to as "nuisance traps for the average player" which suggests that even more of Ross's cross bunkers were grassed over.
Wilson lengthened 8 holes and shortened 1 hole, the ninth, which had its par reduced from 5 to 4.

In 1931 the course for the US OPEN played at 6,181 yards.
Wilson added yardage such that the course played to 6,919 when he was done.  It is my understanding that the course didn't suffer at Wilson's hand, and that the majority of the criticism is directed at the Fazio's work.

Tom MacWood,

You may not be aware of this, but many people hire publicists and ghost writers.  There is nothing wrong with that.

I read Red Hoffman's columns when he wrote for the Newark Evening News, Star Ledger, Golfworld and other publications for 40 years.  I don't recall his columns touting RTJ, they were more event related.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

T_MacWood

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2003, 07:22:20 PM »
1951  Oakland Hills S - YES  JONES
1952  Northwood - NO (New course designed in 1948)
1953  Oakmont - NO (JONES later redesigned 1964)
1954  Baltusrol - YES  JONES
1955  Olympic - YES  JONES
1956  Oak Hill - YES  JONES
1957  Inverness - YES  WILSON
1958  Southern HIlls - YES  JONES
1959  Winged Foot - YES JONES
1960  Cherry Hills - NO
1961  Oakland Hills S - YES
1962  Oakmont - NO (JONES later redesigned 1964)
1963  The Country Club - NO
1964  Congressional - YES
1965  Bellerive - RTJ ORIGINAL
1966  Olympic - YES
1967  Baltusrol L - YES
1968  Oak Hill E - YES  JONES
1969  Champions - NO (New course 1959)

Between 1951 and 1969 every US Open venue (including many traditional venues) were remodeled by RTJ and Wilson. The only courses not touched by these men were Northwood and Champions two new designs and Cherry Hills & Brookline. Once altered always altered - did you expect RTJ to totally revamp Oakland Hills every decade?

As someone who ironically claims to be a fan of GCGC 12th and the original Hollywood, once again you seem to be an apologist for change. Do you really believe RTJ and Wilson were innocent bystanders during this era? And this is just the tip of the iceburg -- it appears you either are unaware of history or would like to re-write it.

Which architect hired a ghost writer and publicist before RTJ? Was he the first?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

T_MacWood

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2003, 08:00:13 PM »
Do you dispute Wilson & Company disfigured Scioto (another Open venue)? Wilson redesign activities were just getting untracked when he became ill (early 1960's) - he was well behind RTJ in numbers but he did have several big commissions. He died in 1965. RTJ was the true Open Doctor - no?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2003, 09:25:42 AM »
Tom MacWood,

You've indicated that RTJ altered the following courses in preperation for the following Opens.

1961  Oakland Hills S
1966  Olympic
1967  Baltusrol

However, I can find no record of any work done by RTJ on these three courses anywhere near those dates.

Jones worked on
Oakland Hills South in 1954
Olympic in 1954
Baltusrol in 1952

7 years, 12 years and 15 years before the OPEN came to those sites.  Surely you didn't mean to count a single alteration, done a decade or so prior to an Open, multiple times.  That wouldn't be reflective of what actually happened, would it ?

And, you can't list an OPEN year and say that he later altered the course, that's counting the work twice, or more again, and that's disengenuous.

Perhaps, you should amend your list to more accurately reflect what was done in preparation for each year's OPEN.

Strangely, Both RTJ and Wilson are listed as having worked on
Winged Foot West in 1958, that seems odd, and creates doubt that one or both performed substantive work.

Do you know the scope of the work RTJ did at each course ?

Did he just lengthen the courses, or did he make substantive alterations to individual holes ?

It is important to get the facts right.

Hollywood and GCGC have nothing to do with your allegation that Jones and Wilson altered/wrecked many US OPEN courses in preparation for US OPENS in cahoots with the USGA

It's clear from my listing that Wilson had almost ZERO involvement, in altering courses in preparation for US OPENS and when I pressed you to tell us what he had done that was so terrible at Merion, you can't answer the question.  
You have a style of making allegations first, and doing the research after you're challenged.  The harm in that is, that if you go unchallenged, your allegation stands, as if it's fact.

Would you care to retract your allegations with respect to your blanket statement referencing Dick Wilson, the USGA and his altering golf courses in preparation for US OPENS ?

A review of the last 63 years of OPEN venues don't seem to support your contention.

I'm not an appologist for either man, nor did I ever say that they were innocent bystanders, those are your words.

And, I'm not trying to re-write history, I'm just trying to more accurately report it in the face of false allegations against men who aren't here to defend themselves on this issue.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the preservation, alteration and restoration of a golf course lies solely in the hands of its membership, not the architect they retain to do their bidding.

Who do you blame for not restoring Hollywood and the 12th at GCGC,  Wilson, RTJ, Rees, Doak, or the memberships ?

It's the memberships Tom, not outsiders.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2003, 10:43:32 AM »
"Would you care to retract your allegations with respect to your blanket statement referencing Dick Wilson, the USGA and his altering golf courses in preparation for US OPENS ?"

No. Wilson completely remodeled Scioto with the understanding the course would be chosen to host the US Open. And when I say completely I mean completely.

I don't think it is useful to focus on if RTJ reworked each course prior to each championship. For example the reworking he did at Oakland Hills in preperation of the 1951 Open was so extensive who cares if he reworked the course prior to the 1961 Open - the '61 Open venue was largely a RTJ's course from his previous job. The point which is getting lost is the fact that a large percentage of these courses were revised during this dark period.

You can try to spin it any way you like - but the bottom line far too many courses were altered - including Hollywood, Scioto, GCGC, Bel-Air, Sea Island, Oak Hill, Oakland Hills, Olympic, Congressional, Pinehurst #4, CC of Detroit, Burning Tree, Southern Hills, Eugene, Ponte Vedra, Broadmoor, ANGC, Baltusrol, Canton Brookside, Aronimink, Milwaukee, etc. These boys sure got around. According to you stupid membership disease must have been catching!

I don't know enough about the politics surounding the restoration of the 12th at GCGC. I know you blame Doak; he may have a different take. What Doak, you and I can all agree upon RTJ butchered the 12th.

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing or do you actually believe this was good period for many of our most revered old designs? Or do you have the Joneses for the Jones family?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2003, 01:27:10 PM »
Tom MacWood,

You prefer to demonize a few architects, and solely blame them, in conjunction with the USGA for disfiguring golf courses.  I see it differently.  I see the memberships and the power bases at these clubs as the parties responsible for the alterations to their golf courses, good and bad.

I didn't notice Scioto in the list of USOPEN courses from 1940 to current date, so I don't know how you can include them in the list of US OPEN courses that Wilson or RTJ altered in preparation for a US OPEN, at the behest of the USGA.

I don't consider adding tee length, even if the angle of attack off the tee is slightly altered, to be a substantive change, and in many cases, that's all that was done to many holes.

If you can document substantive changes that Wilson and RTJ made to specific holes, prior to the USOPEN, that adversely affected those holes, it would be most informative.  I'm not saying that damaging work wasn't done, but, in the interest of accuracy, you should be able to distinguish lengthening from material alteration.

Some say that the 4th hole at Baltusrol Lower was a substantial improvement in the hole, not a disfigurement, so I think each hole must be looked at individually as well as in the context of the entire golf course.

You indicate that Scioto was completely redesigned by Wilson,
But, It was the membership that asked him to put forward a plan, the membership who voted to approve the plan he presented, and the membership who funded the work that was done.  They approached him with a preconceived idea of altering their golf course.  Who's fault is that ?

Tom, it's never ceased to amaze me how copycat disease spreads and infects memberships.  A member visits another club, sees something he likes, and brings it back to his club.
One only has to look at colored balls in the fairway that indicate yardage, those little broken tee collectors on tees, boxes of seed mix on the tees, colored flags on the green to indicate pin location, fountains in ponds/lakes, etc., etc..

One club hears that another is doing something to their course, be it renovation, modernization, planting trees, removing trees, adding bluegrass around the collar of their greens, removing the bluegrass from around the collar of their greens, and now, restoration, and the keeping up with the Jones's syndrome takes hold.  That's just the way it is.
And, it's not an architect's fault, the fault lies clearly with the membership, the custodian's, the keepers of their golf course.

With respect to the 12th at GCGC, It was the members who wanted to change that hole back in the 60's.  It was the members who went out and solicited RTJ.  The members approved what they wanted done to the hole.  A signature hole that they somehow were dissatisfied with.

I don't blame Doak for the club's failure to restore the hole.  
I blame the members of the committee and the membership.  
I also think that there was a window of opportunity that was allowed to open and close and I think Tom could have been more pro-active in support of his true restoration rendering, which he presented to the committee, but, in the ultimate, there were members who thought:
1  It would disrupt play during construction
2  It would be expensive
3  They liked the hole the way it was
4  They didn't think the green would putt the same
5  They didn't want change.
 
Hopefully, restoration will come back on to the agenda once the course is returned to firm, fast and acceptable conditions, which is the present, if not sole focus of the club at this moment.  The weather isn't helping in this pursuit.

Tom, I'm putting forth my opinion based on my experiences at a number of golf clubs, experiences gained from serving on various Green Committee's for almost 40 years, from serving on boards for almost 30 years, from being a Green Chairman, Tournament Chairman, and from witnessing membership meetings for 40 years.

In recent years, I believed, that two architects, wanted to alter my home course, taking it further away from its architectural roots, I fought hard to prevent any design departures or disfiguring of the golf course.  In one case the committee rejected a radical master plan, and in another, the architect resigned the project due to something I posted on this site.   I posted, without naming names, or identifying the golf course or anything that could lead one to identify the golf course or the individuals involved, my disatisfaction with the direction he was headed, and I questioned his ability to be totally objective in light of previous work he did, which was a departure from the prior design integrity of the golf course.  He may have been embarrassed by what he proposed, and objected to my dissatisfaction with his prior work.  My reward for due diligence and trying to protect the architectural integrity of the original design was removal from the committee.  Now, the architectural future of the club lies in the current power bases's hands, which will affect the architect chosen and the architectural future of the golf course.

Do I think that the two architects were headed down the wrong architectural path, absolutely, but they could only do so with the club's approval.

For years, I have been recommending either Ron Forse, Ron Prichard or Gil Hanse, but to date, the powers that be are much more knowledgeable then me in these matters and, in their choices.

The blind are not necessarily led by the blind, just sometimes.

Since Wilson and RTJ are no longer with us, focus your dismay on the present membership's of these clubs, unless of course, you're concerned about repercussions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2003, 05:05:41 PM »
"You prefer to demonize a few architects, and solely blame them, in conjunction with the USGA for disfiguring golf courses.  I see it differently.  I see the memberships and the power bases at these clubs as the parties responsible for the alterations to their golf courses, good and bad."

I think you may have stumbled on to the wrong website. This is GolfClubAtlas which is devoted to "the subject of golf course architecture." I think you might be looking for GolfClubMembership.com.

If you will go back and re-read my posts you will see that I said of course they had to be invited. I think it is naive to believe that the USGA did not play a part in the modernization movement and the modernization of these courses - including Scioto - it is common knowledge. And once on site I don't think the membership designed any of these golf holes - like any professional the architect takes full responsibility for his actions, for the design, for the finished product, he puts his name on it.

The fact that these architects pursued the redesign jobs of these many fabulous old designs can not be ignored. It says something about their attitudes. I think Brad Klien described them as salesmen-hucksters. Afterall they are the professionals, the experts, the membership trusted their judgement (and the judgement of the governing bodies).

And once the membership gives the architect his 'marching orders' - as you like to call it - they aren't out their doing the designing, the architect is. The 12th at GCGC is RTJ's design, not some member. The 17th at Scioto isn't the work of a member, its Dick Wilson & company's. The out of character holes at Inverness weren't designed by a member - Fazio. At Bel-Air, at CC of Detroit, at Baltusrol, and so on and so on.

It wasn't a good time for the preservation of many important works of golf architecture. I believe most students of golf architecture agree....but obviously not everyone.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2003, 06:37:40 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Ask yourself, now that we've agreed that these architects were invited into these clubs, WHY were they invited into these clubs ?

My read is as follows, they were invited into these clubs because the members had already made up their collective minds that they wanted to alter their golf course, and these fellows were merely the instruments, the machinery to effect the changes that the membership desired.

The process goes something like this.

Club invites architect into club
Club tells architect that they want to improve their golf course
Architect renders plans for changes
Membership approves plans for changes
Membership funds cost for planned changes
Architect changes golf course in accordance with membership approved plan.

While I agree that the membership might not have designed  the specific holes, in some instances, the concept for change on given holes came from the membership before an architect was ever consulted.

Something about the 12th hole at GCGC became a lightening rod of discontent, and I'm sure that many membership theories, with respect to how to alter the hole were bandied about, until some elements within the membership suggested the retention of an outside architect.  I'm sure the selection of an architect was debated, and that RTJ was suggested by some, and eventually retained.  He then had to listen to the
"VOICE" of the membership about the 12th hole.

Remember, he touched no other feature on the golf course, just the 12th hole.

He then drew up a plan, a rendering, that was submitted to the membership for approval.  The membership voted for the plan and for the funding of the plan and the hole was re-built.

Did he act independently, or did he fulfill the will of the membership as evidenced by their retention of his services,  approval and funding of his plan ?

Here we are, about 40 years later, and the hole remains, despite almost universal recognition that it's an eyesore, and that it should be restored.  But, the impediment to that restoration is.......... the membership.

Doak, or any other capable architect should be able to restore that hole in their sleep, yet it remains.....

With respect to the USGA, it had been my understanding that they did not make specific architectural recommendations regarding any course seeking an OPEN.  However, I can connect the dots, and see the apparent cause and effect of altering your course and getting an OPEN.

But, you have to ask yourself, what was going through the membership's collective mind.... preserving a great golf course that had served the membership well, or the perceived prestige of hosting a USOPEN.  And, do you know what, Tom,
It was the membership that sold out, not the architects.
It was the collective ego of the membership that disfigured the golf course, and if it wasn't RTJ, it would have been someone else, the die had been cast, and the course was at risk in an effort to gain perceived prestige.

I think that you and I lament the loss of these classic courses, we just see the process of disfigurement differently.

The question is, will these memberships see the value of the original golf course and restore it, or be content to leave things as they are, or, will they embark upon additional changes in the name of ...............

I agree that it wasn't a good time for preservation, but sometimes fads take hold, like planting trees on every fairway to isolate every hole from every other hole.  And now, the fad is to remove these trees that have grown to impede lines of play and the agronomic health of the golf course, but, it was the membership's fault, not the landscape architects who did their bidding.

What I am surprised at, is the out of character nature of holes
# 3, 5 and 6 at Inverness and # 12 at GCGC, and the clear failure to retain continuity in feel, look and play.
While I place that blame squarely on the shoulders of the architect, I place even more blame on the shoulders of the membership for approving holes that represented a radical architectural departure.

Tom, also remember, that these clubs were populated by intelligent, successful members, so I don't buy the notion that they were hoodwinked by the architect.  They brought him into the club, and I believe that they pushed and sold the plans he presented, as requested, to the membership.

I would say, to every club considering alteration:
caveat emptor.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: 100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2003, 08:34:32 PM »
"I would say, to every club considering alteration:
caveat emptor."

Pat:

I agree with you and would also say caveat emptor when hiring an architect. But by that I mean that every architect simply will not and can not do the same thing for you simply because you tell him what to do which seems to be a philosophy you believe in particularly with restoration architecture.

It's a bit like if you get in a taxi that has a wild driver and two blocks down the road he gets into a bad accident and you get hurt.  

Who's fault it that--yours for getting into that taxi or the taxi driver's for getting into an accident?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:100 years, 6 architects and 1000 trees
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2003, 08:54:32 PM »
How was Inverness perceived in the recent US SENIOR OPEN and will it be awarded a US OPEN ?