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noonan

Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« on: July 05, 2003, 07:28:00 AM »
If they do not get any rain......no one will break par.

Brown spots are abundant.

JK

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2003, 02:34:03 PM »
  Awesome.  There will be no rain.  The skies are gloriously blue.  Temps should be in the 80's today and tomorry.

By "brown" you mean sienna, right?
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2003, 04:44:00 PM »
Right now, it's about 95 and very humid here in SE Pennsylvania.  They just put up a severe thunderstorm warning.

Remind me - why did I move here from Oregon?

tonyt

Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2003, 09:24:17 PM »
Johnny Miller made the call today that he'd love to see ANY championship played here. Me not knowing the course from the mens' perspective, is he right?

What is it worthy of?

US Open?
PGA Championship?
One of the two WGC events after the PGA?
Or some regular Oregon based tour event in the fall?

Feel free to include logistics because afterall, they will come in to play.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2003, 05:32:00 PM »
I'm writing to bring this up to the top again.

It is sort of too bad that this tourney isn't really being followed by a lot of people.  Considering that a major is a big deal around here in Portland, I've been paying a great deal of attention.  I walked the course on Friday and was lucky enough to see Michelle Wie crack a few really long balls.  That girl is unreal, an amazing feat of genetics.  While Pumpkin has always had the infrastructure to handle a major, it now appears that when fast and firm, the course is a good test.

I have to admit that Pumpkin has impressed me this week.  The golf course is causing a great deal of difficulty for the LPGA pros.  There are a few places on the course in which tis better to be 50 yards away, underneath the hole, than 25 feet above.  

I love this!  

Someone should ask Tiger Woods if Witch Hollow is capable of holding a professional major.

Damn if Cupp and Fought haven't blindsided me !!!  I'm still not a huge fan of their work, but when playing fast and firm, Witch Hollow looks like a hell of a ride!!

Go Annika!!!!  She's down by two
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Bruceski

Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2003, 07:09:44 PM »
It was nice of NBC to bring to Oregon the birds that were singing a few weeks back at Olympia Fields.  ::)

noonan

Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2003, 07:49:44 PM »
JM made fun of the birds......there were some BRUTAL pins today.......USGA could make Pumpkin play hard for the men.

JK

A_Clay_Man

Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2003, 08:58:35 PM »
Pr really held her own today! It was one of the greatest finishes to a major anyone could watch and it isn't over.

 With the boys going on suspended play it was real drama watching the open versus the one in a million chance Tiger would pull a Norman.

I wonder why the USGA is so afraid to take a chance on a less than major metro area for the Men?

JakaB

Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2003, 09:02:59 PM »
Is this a once in a lifetime dry week in Portland....and I am interested as a fat golfer...do those women think a little fatness is good for their game...I thank a merciful god for not making me watch wet fat women...thank you, thank you, thank you.

Andrew_Roberts

Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2003, 09:22:27 PM »
I believe that Pumpkin Ridge has a couple of disadvantages to hosting an U.S. Open.

1.  The first and most important is the USGA's mentality on how to setup the golf course for the men.  First of all the Witch Hollow course has 5 par 3's and 4 par 5's.  A par 69 would be possible but I feel the USGA is reluctant at making a USopen a par 69.  More than likely a composite couse would be made for the USGA.

2.  The fairways are relativlely flat.  This would help scoring for the boys quite a bit.

3.  The USGA would probably look for more length and that might be hard to come by.

4.  The weather is another major factor in the deciding of things.  The weather this year in the Pacific Northwest has been much drier than normal.  This has allowed the USGA to get great playing conditions for the U.S. Womens open.  But this has been an exception.  Most of the time the weather in Mid-June (When the U.S. open is played) is that there is overcast in the mornings and clearing in the afternoon.  Much like the weather at Olympia Fields for the first two rounds.  The course in most years could not be that dry, unless they have unbelievable drainage.  With softer conditions the men would probably eat up the course with any setup.

I believe the course would be perfect for a PGA and US Women, Senior, and Am events and maybe a Ryder Cup. (The PGA wouldn't do this because of time differences between Europe and the West Coast.  So that leaves the Ryder Cup only in the Eastern half of the U.S.)
I say this because the driest months of the year are usually in August and September.

Peter_Herreid

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2003, 11:57:47 AM »
I'm hesitant to weigh in here, as a member of Pumpkin Ridge I am decidedly biased, but here goes....

I believe that Witch Hollow is capable of holding any type of championship that would be played there.  As was mentioned on the telecast, wetter conditions can be balanced out by tucking pins.  Softer conditions would also make approaches into the tricky greens play longer, as although almost every one of the greens is accessible on the ground, some of the run-up areas can be quite soft, even as late as mid-June.

Were the US Am or perhaps the US Mens Open to come to Witch Hollow the fairways would certainly be narrowed, which would likely come at the expense of some of the flatter areas of the fairways.  While I agree that there are flat areas in almost every fairway out there some place, I disagree that the fairways lack "cant" or useful contours.  The three mostly flat fairways (#4, #8 and #16) have the most dramatic green contours.  The other 11 fairways have carying degrees of internal slope at certain locations which can be used to considerable advantage in positioning for the approaches.

This fact was never more dramatic, but not pointed out on the telecast, than in Annika's approach to the 18th on Sunday.  The left part of that fairway (closest to the ESA) is the flattest and far and away the best side to come in from.  Getting to that part of the fairway means an aggressive tee shot flirting with the hazard.  Annika was too far to the right in the fairway, and that right side is significantly canted right to left.  She had a hanging lie, and I'm sure the idea of pulling it into the collection area left of the green was her first concern.  Those trees on the right are really quite a bit more in play than you can tell from TV.

Pumpkin Ridge and the USGA have had a "shotgun wedding" relationship from the very beginning of the Club.  This is a club that has hosted 5 USGA events now, in its first 12 years of existence!  The infrastructure in place, in terms of parking, space, available lodging and access within an hour radius, is just what the USGA hopes for from a host site.

However, the relationship may be about to change.  It seems as is if the 06 Senior Open is as good as gone, and some of the political leadership at PR is upset that the USGA would yank that tournament after PR stepped up and held this year's Women's Open a year early.  If the 06 Senior Open is moved, without some kind of concession in terms of another US Am or Women's Open, then perhaps PR would look elsewhere to host a tournament, but I don't know if it will ever come to that point...

As far as a Men's Open goes, I just don't see it happening without major revisions to the course, for many of the reasons others have mentioned.  The course isn't long enough now for a men's stroke play tournament, let alone in 2011 or 2012.  One of the par-3's would have to go, leading to some sort of composite course, a la Brookline.  There are several narrow spots in terms of spectator movement, which aren't a big deal for the Women's Open, or perhaps even the US Am again, but would be death for a Men's Open.  The course conditions in mid-June could be variable, and it would indeed be harder to get the uniform firm and fast conditions evident this week.

Witch Hollow is really a terrific match play course, as just about every hole can have every number made on it.  Sure, disaster in the form of an ocean or a big blow-out bunker is not available, but there were all kinds of doubles and triples this week on just about every hole.

Even with the way the college kids drill the ball now, I think that may be the best fit for Witch Hollow.  US Men's or Women's Am, Curtis Cup, Walker Cup, Women's Open--those are the ones I think Witch Hollow will be on a fairly regular rotation for.  I'm just not sure the Club will turn its back on the USGA just yet...

In any event, this was one week that Witch Hollow played like most of the hard-core GCA devotees would have loved, with lots of creative options for shot-making, dry and brown conditions throughout, and an exciting finish (even thoughit's not done yet!)

Peter


JohnV

Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2003, 05:28:31 PM »
As a former member of Pumpkin Ridge, here is my two cents worth.  I have been told by one person who is in the know at the USGA that Pumpkin Ridge will never get a US Open.  That being said, I believe that the consensus was that if it did, it would either be at Ghost Creek or on a composite course.  There are two options for a composite course.

The first one uses GC 1-9, 13, WH 5-8,3, GC 16-18.  I don't like this because 16 and 17 are probably not a USGA caliber finish.  16 would be lengthend to about 165 yards for this.

The second one, which I came up with and which some at the USGA liked was:  GC 1-6, WH 6-11,3-5, GC 7-9.  This would total out to about 7400 yards and a par on the current card of 74.  There are two par 5s (WH 4 & 11) that could easily be made into long par 4s to get the par down.  I suppose they could even play GC 8 from 498 and make it a par 4 to get it down to 71.  There are only 3 par 3s on this course.

Witch Hollow can't really be lengthened much because most of the tees are as far back as possible, although I suppose they could build some new greens instead.  If they did that, holes like 8, 11, 13, 14 and 17 could probably be pushed back.  Ghost Creek can be lengthened by quite a bit.

The reason I would not like to see PR get an Open is what it would do to the course(s) used.  Because the fairways are bent and the rough is rye, you can't just grow narrower fairways.  You would have to rip up bent grass and sod with rye and then afterwards reverse the process or live with the narrower fairways (the probable outcome.)  This would mean a bad few years for the members and a course that wasn't as much fun afterwards.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2003, 10:50:35 PM »
Peter- I retract my comment from watching Saturday's telecast about lack of cant. Sunday's showed more movement than I had previously witnessed. And today's telecast showed it all. It really looked beautiful with all the textures and the color brown.

CHrisB

Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2003, 12:44:45 AM »
I'm traveling this week and I played Pumpkin Ridge Ghost Creek for the first time today (also went and checked out #18 Witch Hollow--I thought Annika's 2nd shot on #18 looked bad on TV but having seen the hole in person it must have been really bad!).

A strong front was blowing through at the time we played, so it was playing tough (the wind was such that #9 was L-to-R into, and #18 was R-to-L into with pin back right!).

The course was mostly green and lush compared to WH next door which still has that neat brown-green look that we saw at the Women's Open. The golden native-grass-covered hillsides made for a striking contrast to the green grass everywhere else.

Overall, I liked the course and especially the par 3's, which I thought were a diverse set. No real jaw-dropping holes, but solid throughout; favorite holes were the par-3 3rd, the par-5 4th (which I hear will be redone for the Senior Open), the brutal 9th, and the three finishing holes.

One thing I didn't care for quite as much: the very narrow rock-lined streams that run along holes like #6, #9 (with the hard left-to-right hurting wind the best play was probably to blow it into the 1st fairway and come in from there, avoiding the water altogether), and #11. I suppose the desired effect is something like what you'd find at #16 at Hazeltine, but seems contrived to me, and the fact is that a big miss will turn out better than a small miss on holes like #9 and #11. My playing partner hit a weak cut on #11 to the back-right pin that landed short-right of the stream, bounced over the stream and finished not far past the pin. I'm glad we weren't betting!

I have one question for those who are familiar with the course: When the U.S. Senior Open comes to Ghost Creek in 2006(?), do you think they will reverse the nines? On the one hand, the existing finish is exciting but #16-17 are quite short for a championship finish, and even though the arena at #18 provides all sorts of seating, I wonder if the USGA wouldn't rather finish on #'s 7-9 from a difficulty standpoint.

Anyone have an idea?

Peter_Herreid

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2003, 06:38:15 PM »
Chris:

Hope you had a good time at Ghost Creek!  The turf conditions are very different at the moment from Wtich Hollow, as you could tell...

No need to worry about how the course will be arranged for the Senior Open--it is only a matter of formalities until the tournament is pulled from Pumpkin Ridge.  The plan was for the nines to be switched for a variety of reasons, but mostly because 16 and 17 are perhaps not quite the stoutest holes for the 70th and 71st holes of a national Open championship...

Peter

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2003, 07:27:17 PM »
Peter - why is the USGA pulling the Senior Open from Pumpkin Ridge?

Cheers,
Darren

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pumpkin Ridge is fast and firm
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2003, 08:04:39 PM »

Darren,

   Because another Senior Major - The Tradition is moving to Portland beginning next year and this would give Portland 2 majors within about a month.