[Peter Pallotta]

I can't say for sure with the first 15 years of his work, but you have to believe he had to trust construction foreman to carry out his wishes when you realize there were no construction documents. He completed a lot of work without (known) associates during that period.

Ian - thank you. And sorry, but I'm going to ask a Golf Course Architecture 101 kind of question:

What do you think the affects were on Thompson's courses of the approach you mention above, i.e. leaving and trusting the construction foreman to carry out his wishes?

Is there a conventional wisdom on that, i.e. on what tends to result when an architect gives the construction foreman a lot of responsibility? (This is not a value judgement - I honestly have no clue as to the pros and cons of this approach).

Was that approach common back then? Is it more/less common today?

Thanks
Peter

[Andrew Balakshin]

Does Waterton Lakes have the potential to be more than it is?

Does anyone know the history of its design?

[wsmorrison]

Ian,

Are many of Thompson's drawings still in existence?  Is it possible to compile the ones that are?  Were aerial photographs made around Canada similar to the United States that may help determine the original course constructions?

[Ian Andrew]

Peter,

I can't answer your question. Thompson didn't write much so it leaves us guessing about the way he designed, the way he conducted his business and the way he built things.

I would need insight from him or some of his people to answer that. I have insight from around 1935 on, but as you can see he also did less work. He was there on site on a regular basis.

I still don't know whether Nichol Thompson or George Cumming still stayed involved from time to time in the early years. In fact the biggest question mark for me is what was the three men's relashionship as partners. His step-daughter seemed to indicate he kept the family employed - and not just the brothers. It seems like each brother worked for the company at one time and often ended up with jobs through his work at the clubs.


Andrew,

No clue, since I've never been there. Looks like I'll be there in early July with my two boys.


Wayne,

As far as we can tell, he almost never did any drawings beyond a master plan for the course. His plans are generally quite detailed and fun to stare at. Near as I can tell, about 1/3 of the routing plans exist - each are still with the club.

There are a set of rudimentary working drawings in The Stanley Thompson Societies collection from late in his career. There is also a survey book from Sunningdale (in Ontario not England) which has some sketches of green sites. At Thornhill there are two (renovation) green drawing plans.

Otherwise there is not that wonderful body like you have for Flynn. I wish we had more to go with, but the more I dig, the more it seems things were thrown out.

[Alan Carter]

Ian,

Are many of Thompson's drawings still in existence?  Is it possible to compile the ones that are?  Were aerial photographs made around Canada similar to the United States that may help determine the original course constructions?

Wayne,

Ian is correct.  The Stanley Thompson Society is trying to do their best to amass as much information on Thompson's work as they possibly can.  

Here in Jasper, we have a copy of the original plan and we have forwarded it on to the Society to make a copy for their archieves and return.  Our plan is very interesting to look at.  It is very detailed with side view elevation drawings, right down to the names that Thompson gave many of our bunker complexes.  It is a wonderful piece of history that I wish all Thompson courses were lucky enough to still have them in their possesion, but I believe that few do.

There is no question that his drawings were very much just a guide during the construction process.  I have photos dated from our first year (1924 and 1925) that show many changes from what are on the original plans.  What is more interesting is that Thompson was held on retainer for many years to visit Jasper most summers to tweak, make changes and report on conditions.  You can tell that in those years that followed when changes were made, many of the changes went back to the original plans that were seemingly tweaked during construction.

I would like to hope that as the Society continues to gather more and more information we will be able to learn more of the insights into this very uniquie individual.

[Evan_Smith]

For all of you that has not had the pleasure of playing one of Thompson's mostly intact designs, try and do so.  You will not be disappointed.  Ian has done a wonderful job in researching Thompson's work as well as restoring his bunkering on numerous courses.  The Stanley Thompson Society is collecting and archiving all that they find and we hope more of it shows up, but Ian could be correct that some was probably thrown away after Stanley's death.

A few corrections for the Thompson list.
1925-St. Andrews: No longer exists
1926- Huntsville Downs: Very little exists of his routing and he only designed 9 holes
1929-Chateau Montebello: The course was called the Seigniory Club until it became property of the resort in 1970.  Not too important, but could help if someone was searching for info on the origins of the course.
1930-Cataraqui:  The club was formed in 1917, but Thompson added 11 new holes and did some remodelling of the others.  He wasn't hired until 1931 to do this and the course opened for play on Thompson's course in May, 1933.  I am 100% certain of this because my Dad researched and wrote a book on the origins of the course from 1917-1933 (it's mostly unchanged since then).
Renovations etc.
Credit Valley: Thompson remodelled and added to an existing course which no longer exists.  The current Credit Valley sits beside the land where Thompson's course was, but has no Thompson holes left.

I'm sure there are other minor changes, but these are the ones that I have knowledge on.

[Sean_A]

Tom MacWood supplied me with a pamphlet from Thompson and Jones that clearly lists it as a completed new course. Do I think this is enough to go on? not really - its one source and that's not enough for me to say absolutely yes. But I can say it looks like it is a Thompson course - so far.

Ian

Thanks for doing this piece.  It was most enjoyable.

In Klein's Discovering.... he clearly lists Hyde Park as a 1925 Ross.  There is also an indication that the facts were checked on site.

Ciao

[Ian Andrew]

FromTom MacWood, more evidence that Hyde park was a Thompson:

"Thompson listed Hyde Park in both magazine ads and his advertising pamphlet. Ross did not list Hyde Park as one of his in his pamphlet. i have yet to find a mistake with either architect's list of courses.

American Golfer 12/1925: "Hyde Park another new community in the making in the same general section near the St. John's River in which the San Jose and Venetia courses are, is the third new privately controlled course for the city. It is being built by Frank Thompson, or rather Stanley Thompson and Company, of which the Frank is a member, and under the latter's personal supervision. It is not expected that construction work can be completed in time to have this course ready for play during the coming season, but it will certainly be ready and fit for the 1927 season."

Earlier in the article Ross is mentioned prominently as the architect of the other two new courses San Jose and Venetia, and Venetia was constructed by Thompson. There is no mention of Ross being involved at Hyde Park, but I can see how those compiling the Ross list may have been confused.

Ross lists Jacksonville Municipal as a course he designed which ironically neither the Ross book or the Ross society list. Its possible they confused Jacksonville Muni with Hyde Park, thinking they were one and the same, but they are two different courses, the first being built in 1923 and HP in 1927."

[Ian Andrew]

Thanks Evan,

re: Credit Valley

There were four existing holes that were clearly indicated on Robbie Robinson's drawing. They were the first, the par three that followed in behind - rememnents are still there, the current 18th played from a tee up top which is still there, and the second half of the 6th which was a par three - tee at the river edge. There is also a large clearing from back of 6 and through 8 that indicates the line of a former hole too.

I'm quite certain part of the course was in the valley and quite a few holes crossed the upper plateau too. An aerial would help determine this much better.

[Paul Stephenson]

I received Mike Bell's book on The Golf Courses of Stanley Thompson a couple of weeks ago.  Great pictures and articles about his courses.

In the forward to the book Carrick seems to refer to Midland as being a Stanley Thompson course.  Is this the case?  I was under the impression that it was a Nicol Thompson.  Did Stanley design it while working for Nicol and George Cumming?

[Ian Andrew]

Is there a picture of the current version of this green (or the greensite) at St. George's to compare new vs old?  The course profile in Courses By Country skips over the 3rd hole.

There is nothing left, but there is another image that shows another angle. Unfortunately there is not one from the tee.

[Gary Slatter]

For all of you that has not had the pleasure of playing one of Thompson's mostly intact designs, try and do so.  You will not be disappointed.  Ian has done a wonderful job in researching Thompson's work as well as restoring his bunkering on numerous courses.  The Stanley Thompson Society is collecting and archiving all that they find and we hope more of it shows up, but Ian could be correct that some was probably thrown away after Stanley's death.

A few corrections for the Thompson list.
1925-St. Andrews: No longer exists
1926- Huntsville Downs: Very little exists of his routing and he only designed 9 holes
1929-Chateau Montebello: The course was called the Seigniory Club until it became property of the resort in 1970.  Not too important, but could help if someone was searching for info on the origins of the course.
1930-Cataraqui:  The club was formed in 1917, but Thompson added 11 new holes and did some remodelling of the others.  He wasn't hired until 1931 to do this and the course opened for play on Thompson's course in May, 1933.  I am 100% certain of this because my Dad researched and wrote a book on the origins of the course from 1917-1933 (it's mostly unchanged since then).
Renovations etc.
Credit Valley: Thompson remodelled and added to an existing course which no longer exists.  The current Credit Valley sits beside the land where Thompson's course was, but has no Thompson holes left.

I'm sure there are other minor changes, but these are the ones that I have knowledge on.

Huntsville Downs (great name, why aren't more courses "Downs"?)   This was a nine hole course for almost 75 years, that nine did not change until a second modern nine was built.  I was born in the clubhouse in 1945, my parents ran the course from opening until sometime in the 50s. Father had worked at Royal York prior to Huntville Downs.

[Gary Slatter]

Is there a picture of the current version of this green (or the greensite) at St. George's to compare new vs old?  The course profile in Courses By Country skips over the 3rd hole.

There is nothing left, but there is another image that shows another angle. Unfortunately there is not one from the tee.

I wonder if Dr Pam Newall still lives in that house to the left of #3. She pioneered forensic DNA science in Canada.

[Robert Thompson]

I received Mike Bell's book on The Golf Courses of Stanley Thompson a couple of weeks ago.  Great pictures and articles about his courses.

In the forward to the book Carrick seems to refer to Midland as being a Stanley Thompson course.  Is this the case?  I was under the impression that it was a Nicol Thompson.  Did Stanley design it while working for Nicol and George Cumming?

It is Nicol, one of the inconsistencies in the book.

The truth is we don't exactly know the relationship between the three -- Thompson, Cumming, Thompson. In some cases (Brantford), it appears Nicol did the design work and Stanley did the construction. Is it possible Stan had a hand in the design? Quite possible.

Did that happen at Midland? I don't think there are indications of that -- I just think Doug is wrong on this one.

[Ian Andrew]

Paul,

The club is quite clear that the original nine 1-5,8,12,11 and 9 are by Nichol Thompson.

The back is by Ross Perrot, which is quite good in spots too.

The 11th is a stunner and one of my favorite drop shot threes around.

[Garland Bayley]

Ian,

Thanks for the Thompson intro.

If you have not been to the Waterton Lakes area before, I am sure you will be in for a treat.

[Mark Saltzman]

Is there a picture of the current version of this green (or the greensite) at St. George's to compare new vs old?  The course profile in Courses By Country skips over the 3rd hole.

[Mark Saltzman]

This is a topic I've been thinking about lately as I've been making an effort to see (and re-see) as much of Thompson's work as I can.  Of course, I am limited because I can only see the golf courses as they lay today and do not know if they are as designed.  

A few things I've noted...

1) Unbelievable micro-contouring in his flatter fairways

1b) Some of the most macro-contoured fairways I have ever seen.  Interestingly, it seems Thompson liked the most wild terrain / extreme undulations to be an integral part of the hole.  I feel some GCAs would have instead routed the course so that these areas were not in play, Thompson embraced them, adding a level of quirk and interest.

2) Thompson is a master is siting his greens (the best ever?).  It is amazing how many times you play one of his holes and you say "yep, this is where the green should be."  But there is so much variety.  Even on a course no-one has ever heard of (Legacy Ridge FKA Owen Sound), his siting of greens was exceptional (even if green contours and sizes seem to have been dumbed down over the years).

3) Flair in bunkering.  Ian noted that it was an evolution for Thompson to start designing the bunkers he is now so well-known for.  But, I think that courses that are being restored are all being restored in that evolved Thompson style, whether or not that is how they were designed.

4) Visual deception with bunkering.  I find most ODGs used their bunkers entirely with strategic intent.  Not so with Thompson who likes to place bunkers (sometimes) in places that may have more of a visual effect than a strategic one.  The bunkers short of the green on 1 and 2 at Burlington are two of the most cleverly placed I have ever seen.

5) Built-up greens.  Again, Ian noted that this was an evolution for Thompson and I am sure he is right.  Nonetheless, I have noted that most of his greens are pushed-up, many with falls-off on at least 2 sides and almost always at the rear...

6) Protecting the back of the green (ties into 5).  On greens where there is no fall-off, there is often mounding.  Thompson may have used the terrain to route his holes, find his greensites and design his fairways, but he wasn't afraid to move some dirt around the green.  

7) Uphill walks between holes.  In an era where short green to tee walks are commonplace, Thompson was not afraid to make his golfer trek a hill to reach the next tee.  Obvious examples at Highlands Links, St George's, The Summit and Legacy Ridge.

That's it for now.  Thoughts and corrections welcomed.

Edit: If there is interest I will add photos describing each of the above.

[Don Hyslop]

Mark, as a devoted fan of Thompson's work, I would love to see photos illustrating your points.

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm now up for a return to Whirlpool in Niagara Falls, Ontario. That's my closest Thompson.

[Mark Saltzman]

Ron, is Bridgewater Thompson? Maybe we can arrange a day with Matt and meet at St Catharines?

[Ronald Montesano]

Brdigewater is half Nicol Thompson, half who knows. The difference is measurable. The holes closer to the clubhouse are fine; the others, not so much.

http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f140/buffalogolfer/Bridgewater-October%202011/

is a link to my Bridgewater photos.

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