News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
A thought occurred to me while posting on another thread.  It seems to me that courses that are perceived as overrated or underrated in the various rankings tend to spawn a counterreaction of criticism or praise commensorate with the level of perceived injustice.  Its almost like we feel the need to fight fire with fire by either tearing down or talking up courses we believe are misplaced.  The resulting rhetoric portrays highly ranked courses that we think are a bit overrated as crap and unranked courses we think are underappreciated as great.  The truth likely lies somewhere between the percieved injustice and the excessive counterreaction.  If the highly rated course and the unranked course both checked in at a slot more reflective of their perceived status, would the criticism/praise be toned down or eliminated?  Thoughts?

Ed

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2009, 02:08:52 AM »
Ed

I tend add my own intro to all those sorts of conversations: nearly all the courses in question are good.  Folks are just trying to figure things out.  

The rankings are tainted with past and present  prejudices which often involves championships and history.  For instance, I wouldn't place Carnoustie, Lytham, Turnberry, Troon or Oakland Hills on any sort of list of courses which I consider the best, but that doesn't mean these aren't very good courses.  They more or less serve a specific function at the cost of what I think is the opportunity to be better courses if hosting championships weren't such a high goal, and that is fair enough.  

It will be interesting when Ian Linford posts his Best of List.  I am betting there will be some surprises, but I expect much of the list will be status quo because the members of this site aren't all that different from the golfing public at large.  Most want to play the championship courses and those with history and will boost these in ratings because they are meant to be great.  Its human nature to want to make connections with the past and in some way be part of it.  In a way, its almost like hero worship.  When we finally get to meet our heroes we don't want to believe they are less than awesome. 

Ciao  
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 02:12:06 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2009, 10:54:27 AM »
Ed:

Is it the reviewer or the audience?

In The Confidential Guide I generally had one or two paragraphs per course to say what I thought.  If I thought the course was overrated I would use those two paragraphs to point out flaws, but then I would still give the course a 7 or an 8 on the Doak scale; I actually only decided to use the number ratings late in the game to even out the critiques.

But, when you write even one or two paragraphs of criticism about a course which is generally perceived as great, people react like you have nuked their hometown.  To some, saying Olympic does not belong in the top 50 courses in the USA is a mean-spirited attack.

To be sure, there are people who exaggerate to get their point across, ESPECIALLY on this site.  We all know a few posters who are famous for it.   But I don't think it's as common as you say ... I agree with Sean that the status quo in golf is so heavily defended that the establishment makes almost any criticism seem over the top.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2009, 11:58:47 AM »
I think they do, even among panelists for the major mags.  A regular Joe might be more inclined to say "What's the big deal about XXX?"  I have heard this kind of comment up to and including St. Andrews and Scottish golf in general.  "Maintained worse than my local muni" etc.  Those guys are almost like little kids, so innocent when it comes to saying an honest opinion!

Someone in the know might search a little harder to find out why his opinion is so far from the mainstream of his favorite magazines.

I also think the tendency is for some new cousres that make the top 100 to get a "hmm.....not sure this is top 100 material" kind of comment, mostly because there is a bias of keeping the top 100 similar.  Maybe its like you have to really beat the champ to be declared the new world heavyweight. It might also be because there are lots of new courses that all seem pretty similar and its hard to know why one gets top billing and others don't.  The old cousres have sort of settled out long ago, and only a change in paradigm thinking (like appreciating the quirk of NGLA bringing it back on lists years ago) move them around a lot.

I think that I would NOT want to list courses that I wonder how made the list, but you guys are free to.  I do think most of us have played a few and left wondering why it was so highly rated.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2012, 08:18:30 PM »
Ed, YES!

I have been critical of Hamilton (Ancaster) in the past because of all the filled-in bunkers, added bunkers, awful mowing lines and more.  I have questioned is top-3 ranking in Canada.  And I have not written a review of the course because I believe it will come off as overly negative.

But, the thing is, I still think the course is really good.  I came up with a list of the best 50 courses in Ontario and placed Hamilton 4th, which would put it in the top-10 in the country.

I have had a similar problem in discussing Crystal Downs.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2012, 09:18:57 PM »
Ed - I think so, yes. We'd sure look harder and dig deeper if we were told we'd find a buried treasure instead of last year's easter eggs.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 09:32:06 PM by PPallotta »

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2012, 09:36:39 PM »
Yes.

But, here is another important aspect of this issue that I've noticed.

When I (or anyone else) offers a few constructive criticisms of a highly esteemed course or architect, (even when couched in the proper language:  "I think xxxx country club is a really fantastic course.  It is clearly great, but I have noticed xxx as flaws) the overall response fails to consider that you still really like the course.  You are seen as a pariah for providing any negative comments. 

All courses have weaknesses.  In order to perform a fair and balance analysis, those weaknesses most be considered.

Bart


Mark Bourgeois

Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2012, 08:16:20 AM »
Ed, you're describing the prevalence of the Anchoring and Adjustment Heuristic.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2012, 08:55:55 AM »
Ed, you're describing the prevalence of the Anchoring and Adjustment Heuristic.

I'll bite. What is the A&A Heuristic?


Peter Pallotta

Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2012, 09:00:50 AM »
Ed, you're describing the prevalence of the Anchoring and Adjustment Heuristic.

I'll bite. What is the A&A Heuristic?

He LIVES for this moment, Bob. It was kind of you to indulge him.....


Peter

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2012, 09:10:02 AM »
I think of myself as being Ed McMahon to Mark's B's Johnny Carson.

Bob

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2012, 09:49:50 AM »
I think of myself as being Ed McMahon to Mark's B's Johnny Carson.

Bob

Ha! In that case we're not doing so hot.

Anchoring and adjustment is a bias problem. It just means that where we end up depends on where we start. In Ed's description, the ranking ("anchor") determines the volume of the screaming ("adjustment").

Search "anchoring" in this article for the detail: http://tinyurl.com/cr4hmy6

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2012, 09:58:49 AM »
This conversation is why many wine critics do blind tastings. In order to minimize or even eliminate these types of biases not knowing what is in the glass can make for some very surprising outcomes. Obviously there is no way of doing this in reviewing golf courses. Throw in the whole issue of exclusivity and access it is quite obvious that any rating system will be seriously impacted by this. Of course, if for some exclusivity and trophy-hunting/belt-notching is part of the overall experience and pleasure than the biased ratings would actually be desired.

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2012, 10:15:55 AM »
This conversation is why many wine critics do blind tastings. In order to minimize or even eliminate these types of biases not knowing what is in the glass can make for some very surprising outcomes. Obviously there is no way of doing this in reviewing golf courses. Throw in the whole issue of exclusivity and access it is quite obvious that any rating system will be seriously impacted by this. Of course, if for some exclusivity and trophy-hunting/belt-notching is part of the overall experience and pleasure than the biased ratings would actually be desired.


Good point Jim. I'm a panelist and, to me, that was the biggest flaw. Understanding how to rank courses was guided by the current rankings of top golf courses, as if the numbers assigned to those courses were set in stone. Of course, it's hard to assign values in the abstract too so I can't think of a better way to do it besides saying "ANGC gets a X.X" "#91 gets a Y.Y."
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2012, 10:46:38 AM »

Anchoring and adjustment is a bias problem. It just means that where we end up depends on where we start. In Ed's description, the ranking ("anchor") determines the volume of the screaming ("adjustment").

Search "anchoring" in this article for the detail: http://tinyurl.com/cr4hmy6

Makes sense. Once ratings are established, it's very hard to make radical adjustments to them. Which helps explain why deserving modern courses don't break into the top tier. It would be too much of an adjustment. You'd have to break too many eggs.

It's not that they don't merit being highly ranked; it's that doing so would cause too much "screaming".

Bob

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do Rankings Influence the Level of Praise/Criticism of Courses?
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2012, 11:54:03 AM »
Mark B, thanks for the AAH enlightenment.

Jim and David, I don't think this is about rankings.  Rather, it is about the response to rankings.  It seems to me that the response is the mirror image of the ranking.  When we believe a ranking to be out of line our response is often just as off base.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back