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David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« on: August 30, 2012, 07:09:57 AM »
As a bit of a beginner in this area I'm curious as to others experience and best practices here. I keep hearing of links courses being advised to utilize USGA best practices for building greens with respect to irrigation and even the use of systems like Subair. For some reason this just doesn't make any sense to me so my question to those of you that have been part of green rebuilds or laying new greens on links courses (assuming all have sand based ground to work with) how many of you if any have followed USGA guidelines in doing so? Any experience with systems like Subair in irrigating the greens? I just can't imagine this being done in the UK, Scotland and Ireland for example. However, maybe I'm completely wrong and this is the norm? That's exactly why I'm posting this. Any thoughts or help would be appreciated.

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Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2012, 08:56:12 AM »
You are right
High expenses don't make sense on a sand based site perfectly suited for playing golf.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2012, 12:43:17 PM »
Thanks Mike!

This site should be literally crawling with links course experts that would at the very least have an opinion about this?

I should open it up to Heathland course experts as well, sand based ground is sand based ground. Same applies.

Or does this question step out of the bounds of what considered appropriate on GCA?
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2012, 12:46:35 PM »
David:

Where have you heard of a links course being sold a Sub Air system?  I'm really curious.

Last I knew of it, Muirfield didn't have greens sprinklers at all, just a quick coupler so they could water the greens with a hose.  You've gotta work hard to overwater the greens if you have to do it by hand.

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2012, 01:19:15 PM »
Tom, thanks. It's happening here in The Netherlands. As I'm not an architect or a maintenance expert I thought I'd just ask before I use my natural instinct to jump up and down and tell everyone they are clueless. I have the documentation in front of me. Worst part is I've been provided the advice in this example from the agronomist that this is the wise thing to do. I'd love to scan and post this but I'm sure I'd get myself into trouble somehow so I will refrain.

Somewhere there must be a wise lesson to be learned here for links courses and courses with sand based ground in Continental Europe, as some are being illy advised in my "novice" opinion.

Excuse me for being so critical.
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Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2012, 02:36:03 PM »
David,

The big budget end of recent links course development was clearly Trump... Beyond them putting in wall-to-wall irrigation, I don't know what was specified / designed / installed...

On the new holes at Carne, it's greens and tees only. One ring round each green and 4 or 5 pop-ups located as much to do with winds as anything else. Make sure pressure gets the water there... And that's about it. Greens laid with local sod straight on to shaped white sand and topped with organic black sand (all local)...

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2012, 03:15:59 PM »
interesting, thanks Ally! I'm a big fan of Carne BTW. Perhaps the best food at a golf course in Ireland....
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Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2012, 10:16:20 AM »
Subair does not irrigate the greens. It is basically an underground air pump that is connected to the drainage system for sucking water out of the root zone and drawing fresh air in. You can also reverse the flow of air to push air from the subsoil back up through the profile. On a really hot summer like we just had Subair systems were effectively used to lower the soil temperatures near the surface by pushing cooler air deeper down, upwards.

I'm not sure why it would be used on a links site. But it would certainly be helpful if you have greens that are being built close to water table, in areas where the rainfall can be exceptionally high, and in areas where you would like to keep golf rounds going year round during cold weather.

Poa annua invasion of greens is much easier to control with drainage than it is irrigation. The conventional thinking is that irrigating sparingly will mitigate Poa annua but in most cases Poa annua is invading during the cooler times of the year when we are not even using irrigation. And it begins by invading areas of shade, compaction and poor drainage. If this particular links situation is located where you anticipate substantial golf rounds on soil moisture that is going to remain high owing to water table issues and unique weather patterns, then Subair could definitely mitigate Poa annua invasion. It might even be used in reverse flow mode to warm the surface soils, from warmer soils below, providing a better playing surface in the cold - some growth is helpful for ballmark healing.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 10:20:34 AM by Bradley Anderson »

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2012, 11:13:35 AM »
Bradly, thanks, that's very informative. Still don't think it applies to links ground. One thing for sure is the water level is high everywhere in The Netherlands. It would seem that simple methods like verticutting would suffice in terms of managing poa annua in links greens. In fact, this was pointed out to me during a round at Royal St. Georges about a month and a half ago.

However, your answer gives me a great indication as to why the clubs here might be receiving this advice.

I appreciate it.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2012, 11:08:12 AM »
Is water movement and oxygen exchange not vital to links courses in the UK? They are in the US at least. A USGA green is a sand green just like the links courses. And guess what? Sand greens in the UK are just as susceptible to bad water high in sodium and bicarbonates that completely break down soil structure and decrease pore space. Does the UK have perfect water quality? Does the links courses sand greens always drain perfectly? If so how is that possible and why is it different? Do links course greens in the UK not have grass types that create organic matter that builds up in the top few inches and slows down water movement? Yes, they are sand greens but they only drain as fast as the top few inches allow it to.

Water movement and oxygen exchange are the two most important aspects of green management, anywhere in the world. And there is no golf course, no matter how old and architecturally classic, that is not susceptible to poor water quality that causes issues in the soli profile. A few years ago the Head Greenkeeper at Lahinch read some of my posts on a thread about this kind of stuff and PMed me about some issues he was having. Every course has issues that need a solution. And new technology is a tool. SubAir is a tool. It's a very simple tool that either injects air for more oxygen in the root system or removes excess water in the soil profile. If you can say links courses in the UK have perfect water and perfectly draining greens...and there are no issues that have room for improvement....then I would say SubAir is completely unnecessary in any situation. But I would never say that as a blanket statement.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2012, 12:10:46 PM »
I guess the bottom line is it's all a function of budget, patience and knowledge... How much money do you have, how immediate do you want the perfect surface and do the people who are going to look after it understand how to do that best.... Although every case is different, I'd be as willing to bet that there have been as many (if not more) problems with links greens that have been over-specified as those just created from the local materials on-site.... That's not to say that it is the best approach in the case David is alluding to... But I would have thought the reasons need to be crystal clear why that extra money needs to be spent and that extra disturbance needs to be created... Maybe they are?

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2012, 12:25:19 PM »
Ian,

you ask a lot of interesting questions and some statements.


Is water movement and oxygen exchange not vital to links courses in the UK? They are in the US at least.

Yes, it is

A USGA green is a sand green just like the links courses.

Not really. On most links courses (excepting a few of the modern ones) UK link's greens are best described as dirty sand with a mix of the local sand and organic matter. A USGA green has a given set of standards to conform to and usually a sterile organic additive such as peat. Also, the depth of rootzone is usually much, much deeper where as those of a USGA are typically 10"ish


And guess what? Sand greens in the UK are just as susceptible to bad water high in sodium and bicarbonates that completely break down soil structure and decrease pore space.


And this is relevant how? Where is this sodium and bicarbonates  coming from?


Does the UK have perfect water quality?

The rainwater is generally is and most links irrigate from boreholes which are usually water filtered through quite a bit of sand.

Does the links courses sand greens always drain perfectly?


they drain at least as well as the fairways surrounding them

 If so how is that possible and why is it different? Do links course greens in the UK not have grass types that create organic matter that builds up in the top few inches and slows down water movement? Yes, they are sand greens but they only drain as fast as the top few inches allow it to.

Again, where is this relevant. If you have greens that drain super fast then you have a problem of them being too dry most of the time. But links land drains quite quickly due to the soil, wind and lack of high vegetation

Water movement and oxygen exchange are the two most important aspects of green management, anywhere in the world. And there is no golf course, no matter how old and architecturally classic, that is not susceptible to poor water quality that causes issues in the soli profile. A few years ago the Head Greenkeeper at Lahinch read some of my posts on a thread about this kind of stuff and PMed me about some issues he was having. Every course has issues that need a solution. And new technology is a tool. SubAir is a tool. It's a very simple tool that either injects air for more oxygen in the root system or removes excess water in the soil profile. If you can say links courses in the UK have perfect water and perfectly draining greens...and there are no issues that have room for improvement....then I would say SubAir is completely unnecessary in any situation. But I would never say that as a blanket statement.

Yes, all courses have issues but the question is are they of such magnitude as to warrant solving? Am I understanding you correctly in that you are saying that if a course does not have perfect water and drainage that it should install a Subair system?

I think you will find that links courses and indeed most courses in the UK have managed okay without them up until now

Jon


Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2012, 03:52:25 PM »
Jon,

Ian makes a good point about organic matter restricting the movement of water through linksland greens in the Netherlands.

My biggest concern managing turf in that environment would be organic matter accumulation. The conditions are so ideal for cool season grasses that organic matter control would be right up there on my radar.


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2012, 07:29:35 PM »
Jon,

Ian makes a good point about organic matter restricting the movement of water through linksland greens in the Netherlands.

My biggest concern managing turf in that environment would be organic matter accumulation. The conditions are so ideal for cool season grasses that organic matter control would be right up there on my radar.



Bradley,

it is indeed a good point about the organic matter but it is also a matter of balance i.e. not wanting an excessive movement either. He also makes the equally important note of air and aeration. I had trouble however understanding exactly what his conclusion was as it could be read both ways.

One thing for sure is that USGA and natural links greens are not the same. Something lost on many is the fact that most older links have a grass sward that has developed to suit its environment and not one made up of strains that have a liking for the environment. Also, a course should be built to give the best conditions through the average environment and not built purely on being playable even in the most extreme environment.

Jon

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 05:01:36 PM »
Jon, I don't care what kind of soil you are managing your greens on...your greens only drain as fast as your slowest layer within the soil profile. On links courses, being sand, your slowest point is the top 3 or 6 inches where all your organic matter and root system is. The organic matter is a sponge retaining moisture. The speed of the drainage comes from the sand below, where water movement is less important. Your greens health and performance comes from how fast your moving water through your top 3-6 inches.

And where you try to describe the difference between links course sand profiles and USGA mix...I just don't get it. You described links course sand with local "dirty" sand. That's exactly what USGA is straight sand dirtied up with peat to help retain water and increase CEC for nutrients. Peat is not sterile at all. Straight sand is. Hence the reason used to increase CEC and microbial activity.

As far as your statement on Sodium and bicarbonates...are you saying that in the UK that you will never see either on a water report? I highly doubt that. Well water is exactly where you will find sodium, bicarbonates and not to forget sulphur. All of which work to destroy soil structure and decrease aerobic environments.

Which then goes back to SubAir. I'm not saying at all that they are required or that UK links courses haven't done ok without them. What I am saying is that whether it's UK or US courses...it doesn't matter...agronomy is the great equalizer. UK links courses are not immune to poor water quality from wells. So it doesn't matter where I'm at, if I had poor water quality that is working against soil quality for high performance greens...I would use any tools out there to fight that. And that's all SubAir is, a tool. It's not a sign of everything excess, bad or over the top.

Roots like oxygen. That's a fundamental agronomist fact. And to maintain adequate oxygen levels water needs to move through the profile delivering dissolved oxygen, flushing out the bad elements and keeping macropores open for air. SubAir takes what mother nature already does and does it ten times better. So when you say UK courses have done ok without it...what's so wrong with doing it even better? Water immediately sucked out and oxygen immediately injected. Root systems go crazy over it. They can't get enough of it.

I'm sure you would see in a core physical analysis test between a UK links course and a US USGA green that there will be little difference in how fast they drain where the slowest layer is up in the top 3-6 inches where it matters the most. And thinking back to The Open at Royal Lytham...that links course was soggy. Water just sat up in top part of the soil profile in the organic mat and thatch at field capacity.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2012, 05:54:29 PM »
Ouch Ian,

who rattled your cage ???


Jon, I don't care what kind of soil you are managing your greens on...your greens only drain as fast as your slowest layer within the soil profile. On links courses, being sand, your slowest point is the top 3 or 6 inches where all your organic matter and root system is. The organic matter is a sponge retaining moisture. The speed of the drainage comes from the sand below, where water movement is less important. Your greens health and performance comes from how fast your moving water through your top 3-6 inches.

I don't believe I said anything else

And where you try to describe the difference between links course sand profiles and USGA mix...I just don't get it. You described links course sand with local "dirty" sand. That's exactly what USGA is straight sand dirtied up with peat to help retain water and increase CEC for nutrients. Peat is not sterile at all. Straight sand is. Hence the reason used to increase CEC and microbial activity.

No Ian, USGA is fundamentally different because as I explained it is conforming to certain particle size, shapes and size % where as the local sand found in most old links is just that. Also, the idea that peat is exactly the same as the organic matter in the rootzone of such links courses is just not true though I do admit that sterile was maybe not the right word but it does not have the same amount/balance of micro-organisms in it. It is organic but not the same though it can and should develop as such over time

As far as your statement on Sodium and bicarbonates...are you saying that in the UK that you will never see either on a water report? I highly doubt that. Well water is exactly where you will find sodium, bicarbonates and not to forget sulphur. All of which work to destroy soil structure and decrease aerobic environments.

Where did I say that UK links don't see water reports? It is poor form to start putting words into the mouths of others. Quite honestly it is a tactic I would expect from someone who knows he has lost the discussion and not from someone a knowledgeable as yourself. I also notice that you have ignored my question on this point. Now why is that??? You only need to know such things if they are a problem but if they are not then ....

Which then goes back to SubAir. I'm not saying at all that they are required or that UK links courses haven't done ok without them. What I am saying is that whether it's UK or US courses...it doesn't matter...agronomy is the great equalizer. UK links courses are not immune to poor water quality from wells. So it doesn't matter where I'm at, if I had poor water quality that is working against soil quality for high performance greens...I would use any tools out there to fight that. And that's all SubAir is, a tool. It's not a sign of everything excess, bad or over the top.

I agree with you totally on this point that where needed SubAir can be a great tool. I suspect that the biggest difference might be that as far as I can gather you are trying to run a maintenance program to cope with the extremes that the climate throws at you where as most greenkeepers here in the UK are setting up to cope with the average conditions. I believe this might have something to do with the US climate having bigger extremes of heat, cold, dryness, humidity and rainfall than the UK

Roots like oxygen. That's a fundamental agronomist fact. And to maintain adequate oxygen levels water needs to move through the profile delivering dissolved oxygen, flushing out the bad elements and keeping macropores open for air. SubAir takes what mother nature already does and does it ten times better. So when you say UK courses have done ok without it...what's so wrong with doing it even better? Water immediately sucked out and oxygen immediately injected. Root systems go crazy over it. They can't get enough of it.

Agreed on the whole but it is a case of value for money

I'm sure you would see in a core physical analysis test between a UK links course and a US USGA green that there will be little difference in how fast they drain where the slowest layer is up in the top 3-6 inches where it matters the most. And thinking back to The Open at Royal Lytham...that links course was soggy. Water just sat up in top part of the soil profile in the organic mat and thatch at field capacity.

The last summer in England has been unbelievable wet. To construct a course to cope with such weather would in many greenkeepers minds be wrong as you would be building a course that would suffer from all sorts of drought issues in normal weather conditions. It is not so long ago that many clubs in the south of England were worrying about the prospect of irrigation bans.

Whilst I accept and agree with much of what you say Ian, I am afraid that some of your points including the last are quite frankly sensationalism that is poorly thought through

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 06:52:22 PM »
Gentlemen,

Thanks for the excellent discussion on this topic. Would these conclusions be fair so far?

- Budget is a key issue and while "tools" like Subair's system could possibly even benefit links greens it might be an ideal solution in some cases but not a necessary one. Perhaps a luxury problem to have the possibility to even choose. I understand Bro Hof Slot in Sweden where they play the Nordea Masters even has some kind of heaters in the greens in order to protect them during the extremely cold winters I guess. So when money is no object....

- The principals for the most part seem to be the same. in Western Europe/UK and Ireland where the majority of the world links courses are we have for the most part a maritime climate which is mild year round (and sure this varies between the Scottish highlands and the Almost tropical south of Ireland, I get that). The links ground is sandy in all cases and located in dunes land for the most part. Water drainage is an issue but only a major problem when like was the case this year we have record breaking rainfall. I would agree that constructing greens for this extreme would be unpractical, almost as unpractical as building bomb shelters for nuclear annihilation (but please let's not discuss this analogy).

- the proof for the links courses would most likely be in whether are not there are many, if any links courses utilizing these other tools. I don't know of any. Does anyone else know of any links courses using a system like Subair or Subair itself. Not to pick on them but it's relevant in this example.

What am I missing?

Does anyone know what's been done at Bandon, ok let's say Pacific Dunes (since I know that answer might be closest)? What about Chambers Bay? These are the closest courses to links courses I can personally think of. God Bless the Pacific Northwest. What a great place ;-)

One last point, healthy discussion is good on this issue but as it's my thread please avoid taking things personal gents. That's not the point. It may be and very well could be that there is no "RIGHT" answer. Often that's the case in life. There are only varying degrees of different things that all can work depending on all the factors.

Cheers
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2012, 07:32:35 PM »
Jon, don't take anything I said the wrong way on here the cage hasn't been rattled  ;D

I think you misunderstand me on a couple points I wrote. I didn't put words in your mouth by saying courses in the UK don't see water reports. I was trying to ask you if you are saying that as a blanket statement UK courses don't ever see high levels of sodium, bicarbonates or  sulphur ON the water reports? Especially in well water? Water reports can vary differently between courses right down the street from each other. So I think it's inaccurate to say UK courses all have good water and never have to deal with sodium, bicarbs or sulphur.

I understand your point about USGA mix being particle size specific. But I don't understand how that proves anything or makes a better case one way or another. Don't over think all of it. At the end of the day it's all just sand that drains faster than clay and it has organic material within it to retain water and nutrients. A links course sand being native doesn't make it better or perform more efficiently than USGA.

As far as cost? Using a SubAir doesn't have to be expensive. At LACC all I did was attach a slice valve to all greens drainage outlets, used an old SubAir unit sitting in the old North Course shed and transported it from green to green hooking it up at the drain day lights on the back of the green. Very cheap and efficient for the results we got from it. I could pump out all water from flushing greens or heavy rains instantly forming them up and never soggy and soft. It was the biggest factor in keeping them fast and firm. Not to mention healthier from disease. A dry green is a healthy green. It also cured our black layer problem from our bad water. Also, pumping air into them during the winter would warm the rootzone and you could essentially lengthen the growing season or keep a green that always got morning frost warmer. It was all a win/win situation.

But on a links course, if I had sulphur in my water that smelled like eggs along with bicarbs clogging up the thatch and sealing off the top few inches I would consider doing the same thing. I would find an old and used SubAir for cheap. Throw in drainage tile on a herringbone pattern right into the sandbase without gravel or any USGA mix. Just pipe into the sand. It's then going to kinda be like an XGD system. Water will go right to pipe because it's the path of least resistance. And just like at LACC throw on slice valves to isolate the pipe in the green and hook up a SubAir at the daylight.

It's faster water movement and increased oxygen. I can't think of any greens in the world that wouldn't benefit. And you are right, it's about cost. But it can be done cheaply if you think outside of the box. You don't have to convert to USGA greens and contract out SubAir to come in and install it. Dumb it down for what it is. A big blower hooked up to drain lines to either pump water or blow air. And those functions are the most important aspects of a greens health. Get it done cheap and it's nothing but return on investment.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2012, 07:47:33 PM »
Does anyone know what's been done at Bandon, ok let's say Pacific Dunes (since I know that answer might be closest)? What about Chambers Bay? These are the closest courses to links courses I can personally think of. God Bless the Pacific Northwest. What a great place ;-)

Cheers

Not surprisingly, I know what's been done at Bandon, David.  None of the four courses have Sub Air, or even USGA green construction: 

Bandon Dunes' greens sand was all imported from one location -- the dune which was cut through to reach the clubhouse at Pacific Dunes.. 

Pacific Dunes' greens are built on the native soil that existed at each individual green site. 

Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald generally used sand imported from clean sources elsewhere on those sites ... in fact a lot of the fairway areas on both courses were sand-capped to varying degrees.

I'm not sure about Chambers Bay, but they've had more problems on their greens than all of the courses in Bandon put together.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2012, 04:09:18 AM »
Jon, don't take anything I said the wrong way on here the cage hasn't been rattled  ;D

good to hear. A problem with writing is you can read what is being said but not the tone.

I think you misunderstand me on a couple points I wrote. I didn't put words in your mouth by saying courses in the UK don't see water reports. I was trying to ask you if you are saying that as a blanket statement UK courses don't ever see high levels of sodium, bicarbonates or  sulphur ON the water reports? Especially in well water? Water reports can vary differently between courses right down the street from each other. So I think it's inaccurate to say UK courses all have good water and never have to deal with sodium, bicarbs or sulphur.

No, I am not saying that poor irrigation water is not an issue but think that due to our climate irrigation is less of an issue. It is certainly something that is little discussed amongst greenkeepers in Scotland

I understand your point about USGA mix being particle size specific. But I don't understand how that proves anything or makes a better case one way or another. Don't over think all of it. At the end of the day it's all just sand that drains faster than clay and it has organic material within it to retain water and nutrients. A links course sand being native doesn't make it better or perform more efficiently than USGA.

Here I do disagree though the principle might be the same the practical side is very different. Sand can vary differently and also there is a huge difference between having 10" of sand before the gravel drainage and having many feet. This is even more the case in dry conditions where fescue roots can extract moisture at 3'+ if the root zone allows it but this is obviously not possible on the shallow depth of a USGA. With old links greens you have a soil profile, a micro organism culture and a grass sward mix that has evolved to suit its particular climate perfectly. With USGA it is at best a compromise but rarely a very good match meaning the maintenance program has to compensate.

As far as cost? Using a SubAir doesn't have to be expensive. At LACC all I did was attach a slice valve to all greens drainage outlets, used an old SubAir unit sitting in the old North Course shed and transported it from green to green hooking it up at the drain day lights on the back of the green. Very cheap and efficient for the results we got from it. I could pump out all water from flushing greens or heavy rains instantly forming them up and never soggy and soft. It was the biggest factor in keeping them fast and firm. Not to mention healthier from disease. A dry green is a healthy green. It also cured our black layer problem from our bad water. Also, pumping air into them during the winter would warm the rootzone and you could essentially lengthen the growing season or keep a green that always got morning frost warmer. It was all a win/win situation.

Thats great Ian. If I were closer I would love to see it in operation

But on a links course, if I had sulphur in my water that smelled like eggs along with bicarbs clogging up the thatch and sealing off the top few inches I would consider doing the same thing. I would find an old and used SubAir for cheap. Throw in drainage tile on a herringbone pattern right into the sandbase without gravel or any USGA mix. Just pipe into the sand. It's then going to kinda be like an XGD system. Water will go right to pipe because it's the path of least resistance. And just like at LACC throw on slice valves to isolate the pipe in the green and hook up a SubAir at the daylight.



This would be also a good idea except I have never found nor heard of a links green that smelled like eggs plus not many old SubAir units in the UK ;)

It's faster water movement and increased oxygen. I can't think of any greens in the world that wouldn't benefit. And you are right, it's about cost. But it can be done cheaply if you think outside of the box. You don't have to convert to USGA greens and contract out SubAir to come in and install it. Dumb it down for what it is. A big blower hooked up to drain lines to either pump water or blow air. And those functions are the most important aspects of a greens health. Get it done cheap and it's nothing but return on investment.

I have to disagree. I think most golfers in the UK do not expect perfect conditions after very heavy rainfall. Also I do not think that many of the links courses are shut at the moment due to poor green conditions and indeed many have as good and some better during the winter. You could have a point however that some of the inland courses (parkland) might benefit during the shoulder season greatly from this

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2012, 03:08:13 PM »
I wanted to come back on this and report the findings and reasoning behind the advice we have received and had double checked and triple checked as well. I found it interesting as some of you might too.

The reason the sub-air system was recommended at Noordwijkse which essentially is a links course is because of the holes that exist in the forest. Now clearly the best option and my choice is to remove the trees....all of them. However, I'm not going to get my way on that one anytime soon unfortunately. We will thin them out. However, what's unique about our situation is that we essentially have two completely different environments to work with. The tree lined holes (all 5 of them) hold the moisture and dampness far more than the open links holes. the greens don't benefit from all day long sun, wind etc. In the winter months especially it remains very damp there and dark. This results in poor air/light etc more struggles with moss and other troubles.

As we want to have the best possible chance to have all our greens being the same it has been advised that we take on the subair system and rebuild these greens and eventually all the others with the USGA specs.

The argument for rebuilding the other greens as per USGA specs is that it won't hurt, it might not really be necessary but on the 5 greens in the trees it is and that is also where the subair systems will most likely be put to use.

It's been a big struggle to make these decisions and a lot of effort has been made to "debunk" these recommendations however in the end the 2nd and 3rd opinions all came up with the same answers interestingly enough.

They all said, ideal situation is removing the trees. Ah if it were only that easy, I'd be that much happier :-)

I'll settle for thinning them out for now and hope for some kind of tree disease for later wiping them all out.
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Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2012, 03:51:02 PM »
Thank you David
I wouldn't be surprised if you got 10 more opinions and they all said the same thing.
The person who suggested rebuilding greens because it won't hurt, obviously isn't using their own money.
Have you sought out the opinion of someone who wouldn't recommend sub-air, except for at Augusta?
Cheers & good luck
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Steve Okula

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Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2012, 04:45:26 PM »
Peat is not sterile at all. Straight sand is.


Actually, sand isn't sterile, unless maybe you've got kiln dried sand fresh from the process. Naturally occurring sand is loaded with micro-organisms, which invade and replicate in practically any exposed soil.

Here is a link to supporting research:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v212/n5066/abs/2121059a0.html

A sample of the text:

Micro-organisms attached to Marine and Freshwater Sand Grains

P. S. MEADOWS & J. G. ANDERSON

Department of Zoology, University of Glasgow.

THERE have been few studies on the microbial flora of marine and freshwater sands. Early work1 was concerned with the estimation of bacterial numbers in the same way as had been the practice for mud sediments, that is, numbers were quoted as bacteria/g of wet sand. Pearse, Humm and Wharton2 appear to have been the first investigators to consider bacteria in detail on the surfaces of marine sand grains. We3 extended this work and gave estimates of total and viable numbers of bacteria per unit surface area of sand grain surface from various intertidal sources. Round 4 reported diatoms on the surface of freshwater sands, and suggested that the latter is a specialized habitat. The present report extends our concept of the sand grain as a habitat for micro-organisms by (1) recording the distribution of different groups of micro-organisms on the surfaces of sand grains, (2) showing how this varies geographically and at different tidal levels and water depths, and (3) comparing marine and freshwater sands.

References

1. ZoBell, C. E., J. Sed. Petrol., 8, 10 (1938). | ChemPort |
 
2. Pearse, A. S., Humm, H. J., and Wharton, G. W., Ecol. Monogr., 12, 135 (1942). | ChemPort |
 
3. Anderson, J. G., and Meadows, P. S. (in the press).
 
4. Round, F. E., Brit. Phycol. Bull., 2, 456 (1965).
 
5. Buck, J. D., and Meyers, S. P., Limnol. Oceanogr., 10, 385 (1965).
 
6. Wilson, D. P., J. Mar. Biol. Assoc. U. K., 34, 531 (1955). | ISI |
 
7. Crisp, J. D., and Ryland, J. S., Nature, 185, 119 (1960). | ISI |
 
8. Meadows, P. S., J. Exp. Biol., 41, 499 (1964). | ISI |
 
9. Meadows, P. S., and Williams, G. B., Nature, 198, 610 (1963). | ISI |
 
10. Maitland, P. S., The Fauna of the River Endrick, 194 (Blackie, Glasgow, 1966).
 




The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2012, 06:25:38 PM »
David,

Send me a message with an email address and I will give you the particulars on Pac Dunes and Old Mac


Paul Gray

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Re: Green irrigation procedures - links courses
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2012, 06:45:58 PM »
David et al,

As an interested newbie here I'll try to tentatively put forward a couple of questions and hope someone a) answers them and b) doesn't shoot me down in flames. If I can draw a response that may be of some tiny benefit to David then all is well.

1) Reference is made to the potentially beneficial effects of using Subair to increase green temperatures in the autumn/fall and thereby extending the growing season. However, have I been misinformed or didn't a mild autumn in the UK last year create all sorts of disease issues which wouldn't have been so prevalent if temperatures had been lower?

2) This whole discussion regarding drainage seems to assume that 5 inches of rainfall will always equal 5 inches of water for greens to absorb. Are local climatic conditions not likely to alter this? To cite the most obvious example that comes to mind, links courses rely heavily of course on the wind to blow them dry. Now I come to think of it, and this one I fear may well be dismissed as nonsense, is the salty air not likely to have some small effect? I know it does on my car!
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich