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Ken Fry

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2012, 12:56:45 PM »
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« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 10:39:44 AM by Ken Fry »

Phil McDade

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2012, 01:21:00 PM »
Ken:

Well, that's a first (for me) on this board. My apologies if anyone was offended.

Look, it's not that hard to figure this stuff out. As others have noted in several threads here on GCA, access to courses (even those private) can often be found via a polite letter, or email, to the course or those affiliated with it (as might be the case with Culver Academies). We're not talking about Cypress Point or NGLA here; it's a school-affiliated course, of a well-known (at least here in the Midwest) private school, whose primary purpose is educational. It's just a guess -- but a polite, well-written letter to the coach, several days in advance of a planned visit, citing one's interest in the course (and golf architecture generally and Mr. Langford specifically) would likely result in some kind of invitation to visit the course.


Chris_Blakely

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2012, 02:31:42 PM »
Ken:

Well, that's a first (for me) on this board. My apologies if anyone was offended.

Look, it's not that hard to figure this stuff out. As others have noted in several threads here on GCA, access to courses (even those private) can often be found via a polite letter, or email, to the course or those affiliated with it (as might be the case with Culver Academies). We're not talking about Cypress Point or NGLA here; it's a school-affiliated course, of a well-known (at least here in the Midwest) private school, whose primary purpose is educational. It's just a guess -- but a polite, well-written letter to the coach, several days in advance of a planned visit, citing one's interest in the course (and golf architecture generally and Mr. Langford specifically) would likely result in some kind of invitation to visit the course.



They are very accommodating at Culver.  Several years ago, I told them my interest, said I would love to play their course and was more than willing to pay.  I gave them a copy of Langford's course list from C&W and that was that.  The course is really a treat.  It would have been better if Langford could have built all of the holes.


Chris

Ken Fry

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2012, 03:42:06 PM »
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« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 10:40:03 AM by Ken Fry »

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2012, 02:09:43 PM »
I have played the Mankato Golf Club that Pat put photos up of. It was a long time ago, but my recollection is that it is pretty fun.

Certainly not a world beater and not even in the top 25 in Minnesota, but a pleasurable way to spend a day.

BCowan

Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2014, 10:45:39 PM »
How is CC of Lansing?

Jud_T

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2014, 10:27:35 AM »
Cornish & Whitten list Marquette Park as a Langford design, but the Chicago Park District site lists Bendelow.  What gives?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2014, 02:25:17 PM »
St. Clair Country Club in Belleville IL , just across the Mississippi from St Louis, is a Langford design and a real gem. I played it last summer and in the foursome in front of us was Bob Goalby - a member there. He could not have been nicer. Its not everyday you meet a Masters champion. Its also the course Jay Haas grew up playing.

If you make it this way I'd be happy to host

BCowan

Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2014, 07:45:49 PM »
Playing CC of Lansing tomrw.  First Langford  :)

Nigel Islam

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2014, 07:54:16 PM »
Playing CC of Lansing tomrw.  First Langford  :)

Hopefully there are some good push up greens for you. I really like that engineered look even though I am a minimalist at heart.

BCowan

Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2014, 08:55:11 PM »
Nigel,

That is well said. 

Tomrw's recipe is Lanford + DeVries + Founders Brewery = Heavenly Day

Jason Thurman

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2014, 09:56:41 PM »
What are Langford's most preserved courses? Lawsonia, Spring Valley, and Culver?

I was actually thinking about this as I played a late evening round at my home course the other day, so it's interesting to see this thread revived today. Lawsonia is very well-preserved. Spring Valley may be largely unchanged since it opened, but it was also never completed and the greens have shrunken considerably. I wouldn't call it well-preserved, nor would I call Culver all that well-preserved based on what I've seen. A person with a good eye for architecture can see what should have been at those courses, but I don't think Bill would feature them in his portfolio on his website if he were still working today...

My home course, though, is very true to its original Langford design. The only change to the routing is the moving of the 13th tee from the left side of the 12th green to the right side. The greens are still very true to the original blueprints that we have in the club archives. We've added some length, but the playing angles haven't changed much at all. The prevailing strategies of the course also haven't been made obsolete by technology, thanks to an odd property with several ravines that limit bombers from blasting past the original landing zones on many holes. A few bunkers have been made shallower, and a few added or filled, but Moreau's shaping is still on obvious and full display on every hole. The "par" of a few holes has changed, but their yardage really hasn't when accounting for modern equipment. From the members' tees, our first hole was originally a 450-ish yard par 4, and is now a 460-ish yard par 5. Our 9th was originally a 460-ish yard par 5, and is now a 470-ish yard par 4. And our 18th was originally a 255 yard par 3 (in 1923!!!!!) and is now a 280 yard par 4.

We could use some tree thinning, particularly from the back tees. But aside from that, the course is remarkably similar to its appearance in older photos and I would suggest we're nearly as well preserved as Lawsonia. We held a very popular hickory event for members last year as part of our 90th anniversary celebration, and there can't be more than a few clubs that have been able to so closely replicate what their members in the early 20th century would have played.

I'm happy to host GCAers visiting Cincinnati, and anyone interested in Langford's work would be well served to visit Clovernook.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jud_T

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2014, 09:22:06 AM »
What about the original 8 holes at Harrison Hills?

Jason-  I obviously haven't seen the course, but conceptually I love the idea of a 255 yard par 3 even though many obviously don't like finishing on a 3.  Any thought to restoring it?  Is the green receptive to a running shot?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 09:37:41 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Phil McDade

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2014, 11:09:35 AM »
Jason:

It's pretty obvious (to me at least) that Langford emphasized playing width in his original designs -- look at some old aerials of places like West Bend CC (front nine) or Acacia CC (NLE) and you'll see very few trees and generous playing corridors; Langford and Moreau built their courses with width in mind as a central part of the strategy of attacking those well-bunkered, well-defended pushed-up greens. While I haven't played Clovernook, I'd argue the work done at Lawsonia in the past decade or so on tree removal and enhancing the original design (latest incarnation here):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58578.0.html

is much more in line with Langford's intent than this (which strikes me as needing substantial -- not "some" -- tree thinning):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55672.0.html

I'd be interested in seeing old aerials of Clovernook; if as you mention it was originally built on farmland (as was Lawsonia, and West Bend), I can't imagine Langford would think its current state of tree-lined corridors was what he had in mind. Thus I'd argue -- in a broad sense of the word -- that Lawsonia is the "most preserved" of the Langford courses I've seen and studied.

Nigel Islam

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2014, 11:12:05 AM »
What are Langford's most preserved courses? Lawsonia, Spring Valley, and Culver?

I was actually thinking about this as I played a late evening round at my home course the other day, so it's interesting to see this thread revived today. Lawsonia is very well-preserved. Spring Valley may be largely unchanged since it opened, but it was also never completed and the greens have shrunken considerably. I wouldn't call it well-preserved, nor would I call Culver all that well-preserved based on what I've seen. A person with a good eye for architecture can see what should have been at those courses, but I don't think Bill would feature them in his portfolio on his website if he were still working today...

My home course, though, is very true to its original Langford design. The only change to the routing is the moving of the 13th tee from the left side of the 12th green to the right side. The greens are still very true to the original blueprints that we have in the club archives. We've added some length, but the playing angles haven't changed much at all. The prevailing strategies of the course also haven't been made obsolete by technology, thanks to an odd property with several ravines that limit bombers from blasting past the original landing zones on many holes. A few bunkers have been made shallower, and a few added or filled, but Moreau's shaping is still on obvious and full display on every hole. The "par" of a few holes has changed, but their yardage really hasn't when accounting for modern equipment. From the members' tees, our first hole was originally a 450-ish yard par 4, and is now a 460-ish yard par 5. Our 9th was originally a 460-ish yard par 5, and is now a 470-ish yard par 4. And our 18th was originally a 255 yard par 3 (in 1923!!!!!) and is now a 280 yard par 4.

We could use some tree thinning, particularly from the back tees. But aside from that, the course is remarkably similar to its appearance in older photos and I would suggest we're nearly as well preserved as Lawsonia. We held a very popular hickory event for members last year as part of our 90th anniversary celebration, and there can't be more than a few clubs that have been able to so closely replicate what their members in the early 20th century would have played.

I'm happy to host GCAers visiting Cincinnati, and anyone interested in Langford's work would be well served to visit Clovernook.

So you are telling me that was really a par I made on 18 last year >:(

Nigel Islam

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2014, 11:15:24 AM »
What about the original 8 holes at Harrison Hills?

Jason-  I obviously haven't seen the course, but conceptually I love the idea of a 255 yard par 3 even though many obviously don't like finishing on a 3.  Any thought to restoring it?  Is the green receptive to a running shot?

I would say that Harrison Hills would be in his portfolio for sure. One thing about Langford that I always wonder is whether he intended for bunkers to be grass bunkers or whether his intention was to have them eventually be filled in? I find he used the concepts of grass bunkers more than any other architect I have seen. I guess someone with original plan pics might be able to answer that better than I.

Phil McDade

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2014, 11:44:13 AM »
One thing about Langford that I always wonder is whether he intended for bunkers to be grass bunkers or whether his intention was to have them eventually be filled in? I find he used the concepts of grass bunkers more than any other architect I have seen. I guess someone with original plan pics might be able to answer that better than I.

Sand -- original plans for Lawsonia, West Bend CC and Spring Valley that I've seen, plus old aerials/drawings of places like Key West and Acacia, show Langford wanted his bunkers to be filled with sand. Lawsonia still has some grass bunkers that were originally sand-filled, and the bunkerless Spring Valley was designed to have sand bunkers.

Jason Thurman

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2014, 03:20:27 PM »
Phil, I agree with you that Lawsonia is better preserved. However, when we start talking about Spring Valley and Culver, GCA aficionados who haven't visited Clovernook are making a mistake in looking past it. It's extremely true to its Langford roots and in far more playable condition than either of those courses. I would argue that the course is far more reflective of Langford's ideals than those unfinished works, and also far more enjoyable for someone who just wants to play golf.

Clovernook does have too many trees, though the photos exaggerate their effect. In fact, the course has corridors wide enough for strategic placement but harsh tree-induced penalties if those corridors are missed. However, the primary strategy of the course is not width-driven, but length driven. This is due to a pair of ravines that cross the property and are mostly traversed by playing across rather than alongside the hole corridors. The ravines effectively limit bombers from hitting 330 yard missiles and force them instead to throttle back, thus preventing them from rendering the original landing areas obsolete. Meanwhile the average player may reckon with them on his second shots. But throughout the course, the ravines ask players to determine whether they can effectively make carries or not, and how close they want to get to the ravine edge to set up a shorter approach. That would have been the case in 1923, and it's still the case today.

It's pretty reductionist to suggest that all of Langford's courses featured playing strategies based on width. Truthfully, Langford's portfolio is less studied than any other Golden Age architect of significance and much of our judgment of his work appears to be based on what Ron Forse has restored at Lawsonia, which is fantastic but still a small sample size. Spring Valley is fairly narrow and doesn't offer a lot of strategic lines off tees, and I doubt that was much different when it was first built simply due to its fairly compact property width. Likewise, Clovernook has been somewhat narrowed by trees but was always a tight property for the length of course it contains. To suggest that Langford intended for it to have Lawsonia's width without having visited and seen the property seems a bit presumptuous. As you know, I've made the trip from Madison to Cincinnati many times. I'd encourage you to do the same. There's a direct flight between our cities and the drive is less than 7 hours. It's not as good an example of his work as Lawsonia, but it's far truer to its original design than Spring Valley, Harrison Hills, or even Wakonda which I have loved from outside the fence on MLK but which hardly features Moreau's trademark shaping.





Jud, the 18th really hasn't changed aside from the number written in the "Par" row of the scorecard. A front left bunker was added many years ago, but it's still possible to run the ball on with an accurate shot up the right side (that's the only way I've done it). I suspect that from our way-back 330 yard tee on that hole, it poses a similar challenge for the modern player to what it posed in 1923. I doubt the scoring average has changed by more than .05 strokes from 1923 to today. Clovernook traditionally plays more match play than stroke play, and regardless of what par is ascribed to the hole, it's a wonderful closing hole in a match where anything from a 2 to a 6 is in play.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Nigel Islam

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2014, 05:44:14 PM »
I have never played Culver or Spring Valley, I have however seen pictures, and I don't think you would being Langford a service skipping Clovernook to play either of those. Another interesting nine that is well preserved is Franklin Hills CC in Southern Illinois part of an 18 hole course. Ryan Hillenbrand might be able to comment on St. Claire CC near St. Louis.

Jud_T

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2014, 08:56:37 PM »
Skokie is not particularly wide either although the Langford work was one of a series of renovations, albeit the dominant one currently.  Also a course that should not be missed.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

BCowan

Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2014, 10:30:28 AM »
I was thoroughly impressed with CC of Lansing.  Having played my first Landford/Moreau I am excited about my next one.  The HP showed my a magazine with the 1946 routing in it.  The great Horton Smith won a tourney there.  The routing is still the same, but a couple holes like the 18th fairway was twice the size it is now.  I txted my friend after playing about how solid the course was and if they only would cut down 2000 trees it would be awesome.  He told me that a MSU prof. has told the board a number of times that tree removal is needed big time.  If his opinions fall on deaf ears, well nothing you can do.   The trees are dense, right off the fairways, in front of bunkers, and around greens  :-[.  The bunkers were redone by Bruce Matthews and they have a lot of flash to them.  Bunkers were moved more in play and also on different sides of the hole.  Without playing or studying Langford/Moreau i don't know if flash bunkers was one of his trade marks or not.  The green complexes were very very good.  The movement was wonderful.  Some of the coolest i've seen.  The sad thing is if a storm came and knocked 2000 trees down  :), the club would prob plant 5,000  :(.  I hope to have the photo tour up soon.  With Lawsonia looking so good it makes me want to move to Wisconsin, CCL isn't a slouch imho.  
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 11:00:54 AM by BCowan »

Nigel Islam

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2014, 10:52:22 AM »
I really like L&M courses. It's nice that the courses tend to be a little easier to get on too. Ben have you played a MacRaynor? I tend to think of L&M courses comparing to MacRaynors as Maxwell courses do to MacKenzies.

BCowan

Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2014, 10:58:53 AM »
Nigel,

   Lookout Mtn is only Raynor/banks I have played.  No MacRaynor for me.  Does L&M have a distinctive bunker style?

Jason Thurman

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2014, 11:28:21 AM »
Without playing or studying Langford/Moreau i don't know if flash bunkers was one of his trade marks or not.

Lack of play or study has never stopped you from opining and drawing conclusions before. Don't start changing on us Ben.

Flashed bunkers are completely incongruous with Langford and Moreau, but featured on several of their courses today thanks to well-intentioned but misdirected alterations over the years. If you watched any of the Champions Tour at Wakonda this weekend, you saw another example of a Langford course that features a fairly intact routing but a lot of rounded greens and flashed bunkers that don't match his trademark style. There are rumors that Wakonda will soon undergo a restoration, which could be hugely exciting if done correctly as the property is phenomenal.

A few traits that you'll commonly see on Langford courses are:
1. Steep, grass-faced bunkers coupled with pushed-up greenpads, not dissimilar to what you saw at Lookout Mountain. There should be at least a few greenside bunkers that are around 8 feet deep or more. This is the signature element of a Langford and Moreau design.
2. Extremely varied greens, some featuring severe tilt but more featuring substantial and rumbling contours. His greens are generally large relative to other Golden Age designs, though many of his courses now suffer from substantial green creep.
3. An emphasis on par 3s of varied lengths. Most Langford courses with which I'm familiar have 5 par 3s, and they usually range in length from around 140 yards or so to as much as 240 yards.
4. On a similar note, there's a blurring of "par" on a lot of Langford holes, as he was really at his best when building half-par holes of both the easy and difficult variety. Lawsonia features 7 "half-par" holes in an 8 hole stretch from 4-11, by my count. While the bold shaping is probably his most defining aesthetic trademark, it's this prevalence of half-par holes that defines how his courses actually play, at least for me. His courses also generally close on a half-par hole, or at least a hole where big scoring swings are very possible due to a balance of risk and reward. This is true at Wakonda (311 yard closing hole), Lawsonia (reachable par 5 closer), Spring Valley (short par 4 closer), Portage (350 yard closer), and Clovernook (280 yard closer).
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2014, 11:40:57 AM »
''Lack of play or study has never stopped you from opining and drawing conclusions before. Don't start changing on us Ben.''

   I can listen to a couple Nickleback tracks to know that I am not going to buy their album or take out of the library.  My conclusions are typically spot on. 

Back to L&M.

1. No grass-faced bunkers, but they had depth to them.  No push up green really either. 

2.  Definitely bold contours and some were large.

3. Definitely, 120-225 there.  Great par 3's. 

4.  Not as many half par's, club prob removed them.  Closer was a challenging par 4, original fairway was prob 70-80 yards wide. 

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