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Ken Fry

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Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« on: August 29, 2012, 05:57:09 PM »
I did a walking tour of Culver Academy's Langford 9 hole course today and left blown away.  What an incredible piece of property for Indiana!  The routing.  The bold features that can still be found after all these years of neglect.  The spectacular green complexes.  All outstanding!

To say the course condition is "rough" would be kind but understandable given the budget and very small staff.  It's a rather odd set up where the course is closed most of the time until they use it.  No one is there answering the phone.  I arrived on a Wednesday afternoon with sunny skies and 80 degrees and the gate was closed!

Be sure to take a look at Ran's write up of the course from 2006.  Although the order of the holes I walked was different than the write up, everything still flowed beautifully.  I could see so much of Lawsonia around the property.  Walking this course made me feel like I stumbled across an all original '67 Shelby Mustang sitting in a farmer's barn just begging to be restored.

Langford apparently designed around 200 courses in his career.  I know of courses like Lawsonia, West Bend and Harrison Hills.  I also realize a good number of his original designs won't exist anymore such as Butterfield.  Does anyone have access to or know where I could locate a definitive listing of Langford courses??

Ken

Mike McGuire

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2012, 06:54:22 PM »
Did you take any images?

Nigel Islam

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2012, 09:24:52 PM »
I think Vincennes Elks in Indiana and Eglin AFB Eagle are Langfords. Additionally if you go to worldgolf.com thru have a nice listing of their courses.

Ken Fry

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2012, 09:36:52 PM »

Did you take any images?


Mike,

I didn't take any photos for two reasons:  the photos in Ran's write up of Culver are good and also have players in the photos to get a sense of the scale of the hazards.  Second, the golf course was in pretty rough shape.  It's currently no where near the turf conditions displayed in Ran's review.  It's been a stressful season on most courses throughout the Midwest and Culver does the bare minimum of maintenance beyond hand watering and mowing the greens.

There was a school golf match later the day I toured the course.  All I could think was these kids can't appreciate the pedigree of the course they'll be playing because they'll be focused on how poor the condition is.  It's truly a shame because this place could really be something special.

Ken

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2012, 09:39:11 PM »
My son goes to school at Grace College in Winona Lake and the Culver Academy course is on the way to dropping him off. We stopped and played it this spring and I will be making the stop again.























« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 09:45:47 PM by Bradley Anderson »

Howard Riefs

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2012, 09:47:52 PM »
Here's a list of a couple dozen Langford courses to get you started:

http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/william-langford.html

Also, for those who haven't perused the invaluable "In My Opinion" section, there's this great write-up of Langford:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/mark-chalfant-the-architecture-of-william-b-langford/
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

PCCraig

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2012, 09:24:25 AM »
What a great thread Ken. Thanks for your report from Culver.

I love the idea of searching out other Langford Courses. There is actually a L&M design about an hour south of me in Mankato, MN. It's sometimes hard to tell via Google Maps, but there looks to be a few interesting features...even though you can tell the course has become over treed (including an in-house evergreen farm?) and there are a few bunkers returning to nature.

I have heard great things about Wakonda outside of Des Moines, IA as well.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 09:40:25 AM by PCraig »
H.P.S.

Jud_T

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2012, 09:36:23 AM »
He also did both the 18 hole course and the par 3 course at Winnetka Park District.   I'd love to see a complete list of his work.  He's one of my favorites and perhaps the most unsung great GCA from the classic era. Number 15 on Ian's list as well:

http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/06/architect-15-william-langford.html

Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Dan Moore

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2012, 10:58:01 AM »
I added a full course photo tour and comparison of features at Culver to other Langford courses in this thread starting around post 31.  Whitten's The Golf Course has a fairly complete listing of L/M courses and remodels. 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24891.0.html
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Andy Troeger

Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2012, 11:47:02 AM »

There was a school golf match later the day I toured the course.  All I could think was these kids can't appreciate the pedigree of the course they'll be playing because they'll be focused on how poor the condition is.  It's truly a shame because this place could really be something special.

Ken

Ken,
More than you know! I played and coached high school matches at the Culver Course. I hated the place as a player--the "home course" advantage for the CMA/CGA teams is huge because there is but one yardage marker on the entire course. Familiarity is huge out there anyway, but the kids really play blind the first time or two around. The conditioning was never very good either. I consider their coach (not sure if he's still there) a friend, but that course was not fun to deal with.

Truth be told, however, there is a lot to like architecturally and I see that now. I think 8 of the holes have a lot of potential if the course were taken care of in a reasonable fashion. I think the 6th (#1 in Ran's review) is a terrible hole, however, with in-course OB down the left side because of the big dogleg to the left, a fairway sloping hard right, and heather grass in spots on the right that leads to unfindable golf balls. It could probably be fixed, but its current configuration is a total disaster. The two par threes after that in the valley are wonderful, however. And I still remember it pretty well, even having not been out there in years.

BCrosby

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2012, 01:52:09 PM »
Andy -

I was on the CMA golf team for four years and played the course hundreds of times. No doubt about there being a home course advantage.

Was your old friend Tony Mayfield, by chance?

I have heard that funds are being raised to 'restore' the course. Any word on that?

People might be interested to know that Culver originally planned to build 36 hole complex. I believe L&M actually did plans only for 18. I have never seen them, but have always been curious. There would be lots of property beyond the curent course (opposite side from the clubhouse) towards what used to be a landing strip.

Happy to hear the CMA course is getting some attention. The Maxinkuckee course just down the road is also a lot of fun.

Bob

Ken Fry

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2012, 03:26:00 PM »
Here's a list of a couple dozen Langford courses to get you started:

http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/william-langford.html

Also, for those who haven't perused the invaluable "In My Opinion" section, there's this great write-up of Langford:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/mark-chalfant-the-architecture-of-william-b-langford/

Howard,

I saw the World Golf listing and Mark's write-up of Langford is excellent.  If Langford did indeed design over 200 hundred courses I'd like to locate a listing to search more courses out that I'm not aware of.

Ken

Ken Fry

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2012, 03:29:24 PM »
I added a full course photo tour and comparison of features at Culver to other Langford courses in this thread starting around post 31.  Whitten's The Golf Course has a fairly complete listing of L/M courses and remodels. 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24891.0.html

Dan,

Thanks for bringing up your course tour.  I did a search before posting my thread and never hit your thread.

My question to those who have played the course:  how did you go about getting on to play?  There's no one at the course to call.  It's only available to Culver Academy students, alums or employees.  Who do you talk to?

Ken

Ken Fry

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2012, 03:45:46 PM »

 I think the 6th (#1 in Ran's review) is a terrible hole, however, with in-course OB down the left side because of the big dogleg to the left, a fairway sloping hard right, and heather grass in spots on the right that leads to unfindable golf balls. It could probably be fixed, but its current configuration is a total disaster.


Funny you bring up the 6th hole Andy because that was the one hole I thought was a bit odd.  The tee shot looks excellent.  That big valley up to that swooping fairway looks like a lot of fun.  The blind 2nd shot would be fine but that cantor of the fairway looks extreme given firm conditions.  I must admit I loved the green.  From the fairway, the green looks unremarkable and flat.  When you get down to green level though, WOW.  I love the false front and the spine running from the front left through the center of the green.  You can't see ANY of that from the fairway.

Ken

Ken Fry

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2012, 03:50:43 PM »

I have heard that funds are being raised to 'restore' the course. Any word on that?

People might be interested to know that Culver originally planned to build 36 hole complex. I believe L&M actually did plans only for 18. I have never seen them, but have always been curious. There would be lots of property beyond the curent course (opposite side from the clubhouse) towards what used to be a landing strip.

Bob
 

Bob,

When I spoke with Randy, the gentleman who's been taking care of the course for 30 years now, he mentioned they have a plan to possibly restore the course if funds can be arranged.  He thought Bobby Weed had done up plans for a restoration.

In Ran's write up, he mentions the original plan was for 27 holes designed by Langford.  Randy informed me with a restoration, an additional 9 holes is also being considered, again if funds can be secured.  If it was possible to build 9 more holes off the Langford plans, wow what a place they could have.

Ken

Phil McDade

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2012, 03:53:49 PM »
Ken:

Amazon has used Cornish and Whitten for @ $25:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Architects-Golf-Beginnings-Encyclopedic/dp/0062700820

or check through your local library.


BCrosby

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2012, 04:28:41 PM »
Ken -

I had forgotten that Weed had done a plan. In fact, I think I have a copy of it at home somewhere. Bobby was a good choice, though I'm not sure what he can do about the 6th. (His 'restoration' of Strong's Ocean Course at Ponte Vedra several years ago was very good.)

Keep us posted. I haven't been to the shores of beautiful Lake Maxinkuckee in many, many moons.

Bob

Andy Troeger

Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2012, 06:19:59 PM »
Ken,
Good point. I have no issue with the 6th green. Its just getting there that's extremely awkward. The 9th tee shot is a little odd as well, but its one that just takes a few plays to understand the risk/reward.

The tee shot on the 6th also seems to kick hard right if you hit it far enough. You have to kind of hug the OB to not get propelled into the thick stuff on the right. If you lay back off the tee then the 2nd becomes even more awkward. But without the on course OB it would be easy to just blast it left and take the 2nd over the trees in some fashion.

Bob,
It wasnt Tony. Fred Haase has been the coach there for at least the 20 years that I've known him--but I'm not in very good contact with the family since I moved to NM.

Mike McGuire

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2012, 08:48:57 PM »
The Maxinkuckee course just down the road is also a lot of fun.

Bob

I think Maxinkuckee was in Alice Dyes backyard, and a heavy influence on Pete's style.

Ken Fry

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2012, 09:16:16 PM »
Ken:

Amazon has used Cornish and Whitten for @ $25:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Architects-Golf-Beginnings-Encyclopedic/dp/0062700820

or check through your local library.



Phil,

Thank you.  That's an excellent suggestion.  I'm looking into it now.

Ken

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2012, 09:51:00 PM »
Ken
I have a copy of Cornish & Whitten and I have scanned the relevant entry for Langford. Quite extensive.
Hope this assists.


Brad Tufts

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2012, 10:52:12 AM »
I added a full course photo tour and comparison of features at Culver to other Langford courses in this thread starting around post 31.  Whitten's The Golf Course has a fairly complete listing of L/M courses and remodels. 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24891.0.html

Dan,

Thanks for bringing up your course tour.  I did a search before posting my thread and never hit your thread.

My question to those who have played the course:  how did you go about getting on to play?  There's no one at the course to call.  It's only available to Culver Academy students, alums or employees.  Who do you talk to?

Ken

Any answer to this question?  I do a fair amount of travel to Indiana, and would love to stop by sometime.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Phil McDade

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2012, 11:20:06 AM »
I added a full course photo tour and comparison of features at Culver to other Langford courses in this thread starting around post 31.  Whitten's The Golf Course has a fairly complete listing of L/M courses and remodels. 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24891.0.html

Dan,

Thanks for bringing up your course tour.  I did a search before posting my thread and never hit your thread.

My question to those who have played the course:  how did you go about getting on to play?  There's no one at the course to call.  It's only available to Culver Academy students, alums or employees.  Who do you talk to?

Ken

Any answer to this question?  I do a fair amount of travel to Indiana, and would love to stop by sometime.

Hey guys:

There's this really cool website; not sure if you've heard of it. It's called: "google"

The way it works, you type in the word "google" to your web-browser, and then click on the link that says "google." That brings you to the "google" page and something called a "search engine." Type in the words "culver academies" and you'll quickly find the "home page" for the school. A few more "clicks," and you'll find this page: http://www.culver.org/athletics-page/boyssport/golf/coaching-staff

Mr. Haase looks like a nice enough fellow. I'd suggest sending him an email, or perhaps even a letter.

Just a thought...

PCCraig

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2012, 11:28:54 AM »
I found a fair amount of pictures of L&M's course in Mankato, MN. Can't say there looks to be much there: http://www.examiner.com/slideshow/mankato-golf-club

Tree planting program anyone?:


What are Langford's most preserved courses? Lawsonia, Spring Valley, and Culver?
H.P.S.

Phil McDade

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Re: Culver & Langford Definitive Course Listing
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2012, 12:06:09 PM »
Pat:

Dan Moore is the resident GCA in-house expert on all things Langford.

From what I know, Lawsonia probably comes as close as any Langford-Moreau designed-built course to the original plans and design of an L/M course. That is, if you wanted to show a novice golf architect nut the epitome of a Langford/Moreau course, you should take them to Lawsonia. Dan's definitive thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37022.0.html

There have been a few changes here and there (Dan mentioned in a previous thread that Ron Forse indicated the 14th green had been rebuilt; the opening par 4 1st hole at one time was likely a par 5 with a tee near the current putting green; several sand bunkers original to the course are now mounds, such as the one on the par 4 8th hole), but I'm guessing about 90-95 percent of what you see at Lawsonia is the original course as intended (with Forse playing a pretty key role at one point in "restoring" the original vision of the course through some tree-cutting and other enhancements).

Spring Valley is an interesting case study, in that the owners there know what they have in terms of an original Langford (the architect's final drawing for the course is hung handsomely in the modest clubhouse), and little has apparently been done to the course over the years. It's rough around the edges, no doubt, but that's part of its charm, and it would be really neat to see the course with all the bunkers originally planned for the course filled in. I think the biggest issue with Spring Valley, after repeated visits, is that the original greens have shrunk considerably over the years; you could expand nearly every green out there to "fill out" the green pads as Langford designed them. Still, the Spring Valley you play today is -- educated guess here -- probably little changed in the past 50 years or so. (I've been taking pictures of Spring Valley for several years now, and my goal before the snow flies this year is to post a hole-by-hole thread on the course.)

Ozaukaee, in the northern Milwaukee suburbs, has a ton of intact Langford over some interesting terrain, with a great set of Langford greens. But there is some distinctly un-Langford-like mounding and sand traps out there due to 1970s-era renovation work. Worth playing for the greens alone: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44430.0.html

Some on the GCA board have played the Kankakee Elks course, which has significant original Langford left. But it's said to be overly treed in several spots: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30665.0.html

The "Heritage" course now associated with Greywalls up in the U.P. of Michigan is an original Langford nine, but not sure how much of his original work remains; hard to tell from these pictures, but I know some on the GCA board have played it: http://marquettegolfclub.com/gallery_heritage/

Wakonda, in Des Moines, is said to be routed over some great terrain, but I've never gotten down there to play it.

Skokie, of course, has some trademark Langford features, but it'd be a stretch to call it a true Langford, as that course is the work of several architects, including Ross: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/skokie-country-club-il-usa/

The original nine holes of Langford at Harrison Hills are said to be extremely well-preserved L/M: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/harrison-hills-in-usa/

I've also played the original front nine at West Bend CC northwest of Milwaukee, a terrific set of holes by L/M over some very good terrain, with some tweaking over the years. Probably over-treed in some cases, but the architectural bones there are terrific.

Others of note:

-- Tom Doak was looking for courses in Arkansas to study for possible inclusion in the updated Confidential Guide, and some of us recommended Texarkana CC, done by Langford and Moreau in 1927.

-- As noted in Neil's post, L/M did a lot of work in Illinois and Indiana (and more generally in the Midwest), but I've gotten the impression (esp. with his work in Illinois) that much of their work in these parts  has been significantly altered. A lot of L/M courses in the Midwest are NLE, largely due to post-WWII expansion of housing and development.

-- He did several courses in Florida, but most are NLE; Wexler's "Missing Links" devotes a few pages to Key West, which looked like a really neat design.

-- Dan has also mentioned that, post-Depression, the L/M firm did lots of small and relatively modest projects, sometimes perhaps without attribution, as a way to simply pay the bills when golf course construction took a dive. One such course is said to be here in Wisconsin, and it certainly has some characteristic L/M elements, but I haven't been able to verify it (yet...) as an L/M course.





« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 12:07:56 PM by Phil McDade »

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