[Patrick_Mucci]

Shoulders meant to redirect ball flight.

I recently played Knollwood in Westchester and noticed an abundant use of shoulders/mounds that were cleverly intended to aid the golfer in the play of the hole.

The 18th hole probably had the most pronounced shoulder.
It was large, not just in height, but in breadth as well.

The green was elevated, well protected by a deep offset fronting bunker left.

The approach shot is very long.

But, to the right of the green is a great shoulder that the observant golfer can use to reach the green.
The golfer can use less club, aim away from trouble and funnel the ball to the center of the putting surface with a nice draw.

However, should you misgauge and hit a slice, or hit your shot too hard and go over the shoulder, a dire fate and difficult recovery await.

Other holes contain the same concept, the 1st in the sense that a large hill serves that purpose, the 2nd with the punchbowl surrounds, the 4th with some backstop, the 5th with a green and hillside bank, the Redan 8th, the 12th with more banks, the 13th and 14th with mounds and finally the fantastic 18th.

It seems that the feature most often associated with Redans was used systemically.

Many shoulders are typically confined to the putting surface and/or fringe, others to the area just removed from the putting surface.
Some even in the fairway.

Some are natural, some manufactured.

Which architects employ/ed this feature and which holes on which course do you see it as a very viable option ?

[Jim Franklin]

My brother-in-law just joined Knollwood. Is it worth playing? I know they have a pretty interesting history as Clifford Roberts was a member there.

As for shoulders, are they the same as "containment mounding" that Tommy N so vehemently hated?

[Patrick_Mucci]

My brother-in-law just joined Knollwood. Is it worth playing?

Yes, it's a fun, sporty course

I know they have a pretty interesting history as Clifford Roberts was a member there.

As for shoulders, are they the same as "containment mounding" that Tommy N so vehemently hated?

No.

And, containment mounding has it's place

[JSlonis]

Pat,

You'll see this feature prominently on display at Tavistock. Findlay incorporated this into many of his green sites. Shoulders are exactly what we call them. During our restoration we brought them much more into play by expanding greens that had shrunk back to the edges of the "shoulders".

I love the feature because while you can use them to your advantage, you can also penalize yourself if you miss them short sided. They are very tough to navigate on chips/pitches.

Hope to see you for a round at TCC soon. Along with Jason Walker and Jim Groeling, we'll get it together.

Jamie

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Patrick,

I’ve always advocated this style of design where multiple shoulders and hollows can direct the ball to certain parts of the green.
This adds an extra possible choice of getting the ball near the flag, compared to the usual direct line.
If the green is strongly contoured, it can also offer the preferred route to the pin.

It does mean the shoulders and hollows have to be maintained firm and fast though, with a low cut and a minimum of irrigation

I reckon any golf course architect worth his salt should include these kind of features regularly in a golf course, rather than isolating greens by raising them or surrounding them with too many bunkers.

[Adam Clayman]

Shoulder, pimple, knob...A rose by any other name...

Sleepy Hollow's use of the shoulder, on one of their opening sequence holes, is one of the best multi use features, with a perfect meld (low mowed), I've ever seen.

Don't remember if it's the second or third hole, but it transitions into the next teeing ground (1st Par 3) so eloquently and effectively.

Proctor and Axland holes are replete with features that allow the creative player to use, to his/her discretion. However, without the approriate firmness and subsequent roll out, they get mitigated and mutilated, in the hands of the wrong steward.

 

[David Cronheim]

Our second hole at Twin Brooks CC (NJ) features a green that is cut into the side of a mountain with the slope falling off severely to the right. The best way to get the ball onto the green is to take it up onto the shoulder to the left of the green and let it kick down right onto the playing surface. I've always found it to be a fun and interesting shot, particularly because it the shot is with a long iron. It's almost like a reverse redan kicker slope.

[Michael Ryan]

Patrick, are the shoulders "closely mown" areas?  Fringe height that work themselves into the green site?  Does Knollwood present them with the proper firmness to work when a shot is executed as you describe? 

Jamie, how about the same questions in relation to Tavistock?

I've played neither golf course, but features such as this are the reason I love GCA and nothing pains me more than a feature like this where the conditions don't match their ability to assist the golfer.  This game needs to be "more fun" and well thought out features like this with the proper maintenence can help it get there...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, are the shoulders "closely mown" areas? 

They can be, and I think that the most effective ones are closely mown.

Fringe height that work themselves into the green site? 

I like those large shoulders, ones that flow from off the green to and into the green
They typically send a clear signal to the golfer's eye.

Does Knollwood present them with the proper firmness to work when a shot is executed as you describe? 

I believe that they do, but again, Mother Nature can change that in a squall.
At Knollwood, I think that they're such an integral part of the playing surfaces, that the desire is to maintain them as functioning, not just visual features.

Jamie, how about the same questions in relation to Tavistock?

I've played neither golf course, but features such as this are the reason I love GCA and nothing pains me more than a feature like this where the conditions don't match their ability to assist the golfer.  This game needs to be "more fun" and well thought out features like this with the proper maintenence can help it get there...

[Patrick_Mucci]

My brother-in-law just joined Knollwood. Is it worth playing? I know they have a pretty interesting history as Clifford Roberts was a member there.

Jim,  OK, here's the deal.  Your brother-in-law is going to invite you and me to Knollwood next summer, on a hot day.
       There are two really great looking women who sun bathe in bikinis/thongs on the back porch of the house to the left of the 8th green.

        We will play that Redan over and over and over again, until someone gets a hole-in-one, or until we're invited inside for a drink

[JSlonis]

Michael,

The shoulders at Tavistock are maintained at green height to fringe up to the top edge and then normal rough.  You can see some examples from the pics on page 3 of Joe Bausch's Tavistock thread...especially holes 11 & 12.

I'll bump up that thread to the first page.

[Jim Franklin]

My brother-in-law just joined Knollwood. Is it worth playing? I know they have a pretty interesting history as Clifford Roberts was a member there.

Jim,  OK, here's the deal.  Your brother-in-law is going to invite you and me to Knollwood next summer, on a hot day.
       There are two really great looking women who sun bathe in bikinis/thongs on the back porch of the house to the left of the 8th green.

        We will play that Redan over and over and over again, until someone gets a hole-in-one, or until we're invited inside for a drink

Pat, you are on. I would love to play Knollwood with you, but I hope one of those sunbathers isn't my sister . She is a lot younger than I am and an actress to boot. She does have quite a few cute friends that I met there for dinner one night. I have not played Knollwood yet, but ate there after a round at Winged Foot. I look forward to playing with you.

[Joe Bausch]

Another neat green with some decent shoulders is the 3rd at LuLu (others and Ross).  These greens were built by Frank James, same fellow that built the greens for Findlay at Tavistock.

From short of the green where the fw flows right in:



From over the green where you can see the back is built up a few feet:



From a hill left of the green which shows the back left shoulder is most prominent:

[Bryan Izatt]

Here's another more dramatic one courtesy of Rod Whitman at Cabot Links.  From experience the ball can be caromed off the left shoulder on to the green.  The slope is dramatic enough and the ground sand-based enough that it will probably work in wet as well as dry conditions.

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