Golf as part of recreation mix on Public Land

[Greg Ramsay]

We've been keeping a pretty low profile regarding a fabulous landform in Hobart's Derwent Harbour, where we are proposing a multi-purpose public recreation space.

Please see www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=6wuIumfe4SI and the masterplan at www.armend.com.au  

Golf will be the main commercial ingredient, which will underwrite significant environmental rehabilitation/revegetation, with the upgrade and creation of a network of walking trails, cyle-ways, picnic pavillions, interpretation look-outs, all connected to downtown Hobart, by a 20minute ferry ride. Neil Crafter & Paul Mogford have been Site Masterplanners for over a year now, and we're thrilled to have the talents of Line Mortensen and Mike Nuzzo as Consulting Architects (how could we resist Mike's brilliance after seeing his mastery at Wolf Point!)

As you'll see in this feature below, while we meet all the management criteria of the site's Nature & Recreation Reserve Status, there are still some residents who don't accept that while golf will only take up a small amount of the total property, they feel it will dominate and not be compatible with walkers, cyclists etc. Please see

www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-25/golf-on-crown-land/4222532

I am very keen to hear of any articles that celebrate golf as part of the public recreation mix, and contribute to an environmentally sustainable, economically stimulating outcome!

We've already observed Sean Arble & Robin Hiseman's glowing accounts of Minchinhampton Old (more to come on that when i get around to it; Peter Toogood, Tasmania's most successful golfer, and the founder of www.ausgolfmuseum.com in my hometown, believes his Grandfather laid out the course, has a photo of him playing there from HH's 'British Golf Links' AND was reportedly involved in Dr.Mackenzie's first ever design commission too)

But i wonder has anyone ever seen an article/study on 'golf in the use and management of public land' or anything that celebrates the UK's culture of public thoroughfares through golf courses? When i caddied at Kingsbarns, we were always chatting to walkers, bird-watchers and dag-walkers wandering through, and we all know about the public walking trails that weave their way through, across and around the Old Course, and St.Andrews' great links layouts. The interaction of golfers and non-golfers will be part of the charm in playing Arm End, and the common sense and common courtesies that minimise any safety risks, will be enhanced by well trained caddies.

Even though in Australia, there are already several courses on public land (e.g The Lakes, NSW GC in Botany Bay Nat'l Park) they're not public courses, so i'd love any more specific material on golf adding value and viability to other public parklands.

I only had to google 'Common Golf Club' in .co.uk version of google, to immediately bring up a whole host of golf courses in commons- and wonder if anyone can point us towards similar indications of golf compatibility with non-golf enjoyment of public reserves!

Very grateful for any interest or thoughts, and looking forward to unleashing the talents of Crafter, Mogford, Mortensen and Nuzzo on this terribly degraded, but always enchanting, property. All best,

Greg Ramsay
www.thenzwhisky.com
www.kingsbarnsdistillery.com
www.experienceconsulting.com.au  

[Eric Smith]

Wow. Spectacular site and team you've assembled, Greg. Best of luck with the project.

[Tom Dunne]

Greg,

In the U.S., Chambers Bay represents one of most interesting developments of the past decade in terms of blending golf into a multi-use public facility. Tacoma's goals for the project are sky-high (2015 U.S. Open), as is the debt involved--and those are things you'll encounter over and over again in the reporting. But in my opinion it's a fascinating property, with well-used public walking trails running above, around and through the course, forested trails, a bridge over the rail tracks that opened a beach that had been closed to the public for a century...and the municipal wastewater treatment facility is right there, too. Just a lot going on.

The Arm End site looks phenomenal. Best of luck in creating something that both golfers and non-golfers will enjoy.

[Steve Burrows]

At present, in this vicinity, the best part of the land is not private property; the landscape is not owned, and the walker enjoys comparative freedom. But possibly the day will come when it will be partitioned off into so-called pleasure grounds, in which a few will take a narrow and exclusive pleasure only,--when fences shall be multiplied, and man-traps and other engines invented to confine man to the public road, and walking over the surface of God’s earth shall be construed to mean trespassing on some gentleman’s grounds.  To enjoy a thing exclusively is commonly to exclude yourself from the true enjoyment of it.  Let us improve our opportunities, then, before the evil days come.

-from Walking, by Henry David Thoreau

[Peter Pallotta]

Greg - my computer here at work won't allow me to watch videos, but from what you've written it sounds a wonderful and good and far-sighted plan...which, unfortunately, I think means you can expect a lot of opposition (at least at the beginning).  Congrats to Mike N as well. One suggestion, from someone who knows very little about such matters/complexities: close the golf course one day a week and let the locals roam over it with their dogs and children to their hearts content, and use grasses and maintenance practices (e.g. little/no chemicals) so as to make it safe for them to do so. 

Peter

[Neil_Crafter]

Cheers Greg
This is a very exciting project, not only for Hobart and Tasmania, but for the rest of Australia. Not often is there a site for golf with water on three sides! Hobart does not have an 18 hole public golf course and this project will more than fill that gap. I have attached a location map so that the proximity of the site to Hobart and its airport can be seen. Our site is at the very end of the South Arm peninsula, above the little town of Opossum Bay, hence the name Arm End.

Also attached is the site contour plan and the master plan that Greg referred to, which Paul Mogford and I have developed in conjunction with Greg. Next stage is development approval and once we are past that significant hurdle we can look forward to collaborating with Mike and Line. I will post some photos of the site separately.

[Neil_Crafter]

A selection of site photographs

[Matthew Essig]

There are quite a few holes with water on the left. Sorry for being a critic. Anyway, sounds like a great idea. Maybe it will do better financially than Chambers Bay.

[Neil_Crafter]

There are quite a few holes with water on the left. Sorry for being a critic. Anyway, sounds like a great idea. Maybe it will do better financially than Chambers Bay.

Matthew
No problems with being a critic! That's what this site is about.
The water is not a factor on the front nine, and there are five holes on the back nine where the water is in play and is on the left as you noted. We looked at other routings to get a mix of both left and right but didn't feel they were as good as this one. Also being a public access course the slices go onto dry land which is an important consideration.

[Mike Sweeney]

I only had to google 'Common Golf Club' in .co.uk version of google, to immediately bring up a whole host of golf courses in commons- and wonder if anyone can point us towards similar indications of golf compatibility with non-golf enjoyment of public reserves!

Greg,

Bethpage is very mixed use with horses, riding and hiking trails:

http://nysparks.com/parks/108/amenities-activities.aspx

polo too:

http://www.poloatthepark.com/

Highland Links on Cape Cod is another with beach, lighthouse tour and golf integrated:

http://www.truro-ma.gov/html_pages/facilities/golf/golf_aerial.php

http://www.trurolinks.com/about/index.html

[Matthew Essig]

There are quite a few holes with water on the left. Sorry for being a critic. Anyway, sounds like a great idea. Maybe it will do better financially than Chambers Bay.

Matthew
No problems with being a critic! That's what this site is about.
The water is not a factor on the front nine, and there are five holes on the back nine where the water is in play and is on the left as you noted. We looked at other routings to get a mix of both left and right but didn't feel they were as good as this one. Also being a public access course the slices go onto dry land which is an important consideration.

True.
Ever thought about crossing over after 10 and going in the opposite direction for 11-14. You could have 13 finish on the peninsula and have 14 as an always loved 100-yarder right on the ocean. This could then have 15 as a par 5 and have 18 as a tough par 4 where you don't have to backtrack so much.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Greg and Neil,

What a fabulous site !

The best of luck with the project

Greg,

One of the things I learned from Brad Klein is that no matter how well the facts line up, no matter how sound your logic, you'll never convince the element/sector of opposition composed of diehards and/or hard liner's.

I think that's true with memberships and I think that's true with environmentalists.

No matter what you propose, you'll never win them over.

Instead, concentrate on those who are open to prudent thought, who will listen to reason and a sound plan.

Many want more information so that they will feel comfortable about their decision.

You'll waste your time if you try to convince those who think golf is "evil", so focus on the others as best you can.

The project and site look spectacular, I hope it turns out as you wish.

Good luck

P.S.  Bayonne and Liberty National took terrible sites and converted them to golf, inclusive of walking paths and environmental improvements.
          You may want to contact Eric Bergstol at Bayonne for his thoughts

[Will Lozier]

Greg and Neil,

What a fabulous site !

The best of luck with the project

Greg,

One of the things I learned from Brad Klein is that no matter how well the facts line up, no matter how sound your logic, you'll never convince the element/sector of opposition composed of diehards and/or hard liner's.

I think that's true with memberships and I think that's true with environmentalists.

No matter what you propose, you'll never win them over.

Instead, concentrate on those who are open to prudent thought, who will listen to reason and a sound plan.

Many want more information so that they will feel comfortable about their decision.

You'll waste your time if you try to convince those who think golf is "evil", so focus on the others as best you can.

The project and site look spectacular, I hope it turns out as you wish.

Good luck

P.S.  Bayonne and Liberty National took terrible sites and converted them to golf, inclusive of walking paths and environmental improvements.
          You may want to contact Eric Bergstol at Bayonne for his thoughts

Patrick,

I think to say that all environmentalists are hard-liners or extremists, if that is what you are implying, is false.  I could say the same thing about tea-partyers, for instance, and I would fail to be correct.  There are pragmatic folks in every profession/walk of life.

Cheers

[George Pazin]

Patrick,

I think to say that all environmentalists are hard-liners or extremists, if that is what you are implying.  I could say the same thing about tea-partyers and I would fail to be correct.  There are pragmatic folks in every profession/walk of life.

Cheers

I believe Pat is merely saying that there will be some portion of those opposed who will never change their minds, so it's best to focus on the one's who may.

-----

Welcome back, Greg.

Very happy to read good news for many of my friends, very happy indeed.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Great sharing of pictures and information Greg and Neil
Greg it was great to see you in Texas
I look forward to our next get together with Neil
Thank you Peter and I like your suggestion
Cheers mates

[Colin Macqueen]

Mike, Greg and Neil,
I think this project could be a real winner and the land looks "fit for purpose" if ever there was.

Peter's suggestion regarding access is excellent and has pedigree and precedence in The Old Course. On most Sundays I believe all and sundry are able to ramble over that hallowed turf!
It seems to be a very clever way to ensure that the locals feel that they have some ownership of what is a public space which, from a sports point of view, they may not have great interest in.

Orra best,

Colin

[Garland Bayley]

... Also being a public access course the slices go onto dry land which is an important consideration.

You won't see my slices go onto dry land with this routing. I always think you sacrifice something when you don't strive for more variety.
Sorry for being a critic, but that's what I do.

[Neil_Crafter]

... Also being a public access course the slices go onto dry land which is an important consideration.

You won't see my slices go onto dry land with this routing. I always think you sacrifice something when you don't strive for more variety.
Sorry for being a critic, but that's what I do.

Garland, I'm sorry to hear that you are a lefty 

To us the question is quality of holes versus variety. And the balance thereof. Enforced variety at the cost of the best holes seems artificial to me.

We are looking for the best holes naturally and we have produced a few routings for the back nine with a mix of water left and water right holes but they seemed a bit contrived and the holes were not as good we thought. That said, the routing is not exactly set in stone at this point and once we get past the hurdle of development approval (fingers crossed) I'm sure the possibilities of alternatives with a mix of water left and water right holes will be examined again.

I too think Peter P's suggestion of closing the course for one day a week - maybe one day a fortnight even - to allow people to wander wherever they want to is a good idea. From an operator's viewpoint you wouldn't want that to be Saturday or Sunday though!

The grass off the walking trails is waist high and has been for the last few years. Also there are snakes present so at the moment only the brave (foolhardy people like golf course architects) walk off the trails. So in reality people currently can't readily access all the property.

[Lyne Morrison]

Well done Neil and Paul and best of luck with progressing forward.
Love the inclusion of the Himalaya putting course - a great complement to the mix and sure to be a winner across many ages.
Cheers, Lyne

[Greg Ramsay]

Many many thanks for the input folks, and particularly the emails i've received direclty pointing me towards many other UK and American courses with extensive public access throughout them. Keep'em coming! Chambers Bay is certainly a very helpful precedent, as is Bethpage- although I've not yet found a map of either that shows the public walking trails through those layouts.

Adam Lawrence has kindly pointed out Falsterbo in Sweden, is one of Europe's most popular bird migratory hotspots, and that the bird watchers wander through the course to see all sorts of our feathered friends. Hopefully i'll be able to find an aerial of that, and i'm sure that many of the courses in Ireland have tremendous public thoroughfares, like the Scottish linkslands and the English commons.

Many thanks again- there is an online petition http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/support-the-arm-end-golf-course.html and a Facebook page to support if it anyone feels they can see the logic and positive outcomes are worthy of supporting.

Once again, many many thanks. I think Crafty, Moggy, Line & Mike will produce a masterpiece if given a chance!

Greg Ramsay
www.rathogolf.com

[Scott Warren]

Greg or Neil,

How far is this site from the one Ogilvy Clayton (with Matt Goggin?) are looking at/working on?

[Tom Dunne]

Greg,

Here's a map of the Chambers Bay property:

http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/pc/abtus/ourorg/ccp/trails.htm

[RJ_Daley]

It seems to me that the ideal would be that if this is on 'Crown land' and that means public land, and is in the public domain as land owned by the citizens and taxpayers, then what ever happens with it shouldn't involve a private developer component.  Any proposal for developed recreation VS natural untouched environment  should stand on the voters desire, or it will be doomed from the start.  I am a big proponent of municipal golf courses, developed and run by the entity of government that is the land holder.  If it is the province or what ever version of county that Hobart has, then that should be the level that this is decided, and operated as a department of that entity.  I have to imagine that there is a Hobart or province parks and recreation division in their local government.  That doesn't preclude the government entity seeking bids or a concessionaire operator (though that also would not be my favorite approach).  I live in a County and State where we have strong municipal golf at city, county, or state levels.  Some have concessionaires, most are an entity of the locality's parks and rec division. 

I am a big admirer of Greg Ramsey and his sustained passion from when we first became aware of him at Barnbougle.  I wish him nothing but success.  Of course same for the other planners and designers mentioned.  But, I feel like I'm missing some piece of the puzzle I'm probably just too dense to understand in looking at that routing, and traffic pattern throught the property, as it attempts to share the land in mixed uses.  Certainly there seems enough land 'fit for purpose' and probably not too costly to work in shaping in that sand.  But, I really don't get the routing at all, relative to the necessary users and needed infrastructure to make this function efficiently.... 

No doubt working with the Audebon Society, and other enviro groups will take time and process to build consensus.  But, it seems to me that the best way to find out if you will have a never ending conflict, or a modicum of consensus among the citizens, is put this one on a referendum, both in concept and then if approved on a facility- user fees pays investor revenue bond.  Make sure the work up has a budget that truly every citizen can afford, not elite fees.  And of course free access to the nature walkers and birders, etc. 

The think looks dripping with possibilities,  and at the same time fraught with obstructions and political pit falls.

One can only say, good luck, and may the community win at the end of the day.

[Alex Miller]

I am a big admirer of Greg Ramsey and his sustained passion from when we first became aware of him at Barnbougle.  I wish him nothing but success.  Of course same for the other planners and designers mentioned.  But, I feel like I'm missing some piece of the puzzle I'm probably just too dense to understand in looking at that routing, and traffic pattern throught the property, as it attempts to share the land in mixed uses.  Certainly there seems enough land 'fit for purpose' and probably not too costly to work in shaping in that sand.  But, I really don't get the routing at all, relative to the necessary users and needed infrastructure to make this function efficiently.... 

This seems like an exciting project, and I'm not informed beyond the information on this page, but I agree with this.

[Neil_Crafter]

Greg or Neil,

How far is this site from the one Ogilvy Clayton (with Matt Goggin?) are looking at/working on?

Scott, if you look at the Google Map extract I posted above, go to the top right and you will see Royal Hobart and the airport. The Goggin - Clayton project is out towards the end of that peninsula. My guess, having driven that route, is that it would be 25 minutes tops.