What are the features you most like from Seth Raynor?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I say this because no matter how man-made the forms might be, I'm desperate right now, at this very moment to go play a Raynor course! Yes, I'm having the Joneses for some Seth!:)

I like the mounds! All of them, and how they pertain to play, somuch in fact, that I would go out of my way to play each and everyone of them despite if I could find a quicker way to the hole!

As I say this, Yale #18 comes to mind,and even though it doesn't have the said mounds per say, I'm thinking of all the ways to play 18!

What are yours?

[JakaB]

I like the clean geometric lines of his bunkers...bunkers simply being bunkers and nothing more.  

[RJ_Daley]

Tommy, listening in on the real Seth Raynor conoscenti, of which I am just an interloper, I think it is clear that Yale is/was something special, despite current conditions.  I have never seen it so really those SRS members who get around the SR circuit would be best to answer.  However, I did get a chance at Yeaman's Hall and it is hard for me to imagine better golf than that on a SR design.  George pointed out some subtleties at WCC that I wouldn't have picked out in a million years that at first blush would suggest SR, but then on his instructive pointing out, I was able to see the differences between remodelled-restored and the original bunkering in places.  There were places where even I could see the divergence without George's help, however...

I do regret that New England received a tremendous amount of rain recently yielding a bit of a soft presentation, but you can't fight Mother nature.  The green speeds were very much compatible with allowing us to enjoy the amazing green contours, and kudos to Ted Ellis the super who also is an excellent player...

The other SR course I have played (Country Club of Charleston) is not chopped liver by any measure.  There are Eden, double plateau, hogsback,knoll, long and bottle holes, that have distinct merit, along with the Lion's mouth Double Plateau 16th that George says he loves, as do I...

I would love to be a member of the CC of C and could spend many hours and days on their spectacular veranda overlooking two great putting greens, the 18th and 11th greens.  It oozes "Southern charm"...

[Norbert P]

Dick, we're going to have to pitch in and get you a GPS locater and a live link cam to fasten to your cap so we can keep tabs on your forays.      

We need a Di...  er... Let's call it a Daley-cam.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

So John, You hate those free-flowing Fazio bunkers like I do eh?

Actually that was a joke, but it is a great point that you bring up. Is it natural? obviously it isn't, because I'm not sure Raynor completely understood the nature theme, and given the day when he was doing a majority of his work, probably a large influx of the Geo era was still part of it. But he got one thing absolutely right, and that is the natural quirkiness and how to emulate it.

It is mindblowing.

Dick, Yale is a PHENOMINAL golf course. A pure tribute to the mans in order for it. This is where Yale University is receiving a failing grade acting more like a junior college student with an undeclared major.

[Eric Pevoto]

Tommy,

Luckily, I've been invited to play Yale on the 16th.  What are the Raynor features there that stand out most in your mind?  Any subtleties that I won't want to miss my first time around?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

#1 Green is amazing, so is the depth of the approach shot in on that hole. Your blind on the left, and it is nothng but Raynor trademark bunkers guarding that left. From the right, I can only wonder how good a ball looks rolling down that slope in the green.

#2 Once again the approach, unfortunately ruined by a certain someone who unwisely removed the banked mounding that took you into the green on a leap of faith. That pit of dispair on te left is awesome, but once again ruinged by the addition of a ledge that is supposed to stop balls from rolling into the "TRAP" (Because John V, that is what it is!) in the interests of speeding-up play. Unfortunately again, tall rough grasses and the time-consuming effort to not want to fly mow those embankments makes it impossible to find a golf ball in them.

#3 Still a great hole, even though the green has been moved and unfortuantely again, the embankment that blinds the green not being properly maintained in the essence of time-consuming maintenance.

#4 From the tee, another phenominal leap of faith over a blinding mound or a lengthy carry over water.

#5 A phenominal short hole that not only has the Raynoresque moat bunkering, but to a green that seemingly has been altered in the essence of removing challenging play.

#6 The hole was a quagmire when we played it, and the right green-fronting has been changed drastically, but the green is certainly special.

#7 If there were any hole that is a prime example that spelled out the history of Yale Golf Club/The Course At Yale this is it. Raynor blasted through a rock mountain to create this golf hole. It was pointed out to me by Mike, Tim and Geoff how intregal it was to the routing of the course. It is a phenominal golf hole that ishaving trouble seeing past the ill-maintanence and all of the problems of YGC with-in. IT WAS BLASTED OUT OF ROCK.........The foundation is there. Remove the negatives and the hole and the golf course lives again.

#8 Another phenominal golf hole. Just add about 3 inches of thatch tot he fairways and green, and it doesn't play anything like it should.

#9 Even with the inane Roger Rulewich bunkers, a hole so good, he can't even screw-it up. Needless to say which feature is the most bold in my mind on this hole.

#10 Seriously scarry tee shot to an equally scarry approach to an even equally scarry green. If ever a hole could be likened to a roller coaster Yale #10 is it.

#11 Another quagmire hole due to recent rains, the super who destoryed this green deserves to be kicked in the testacles....if he ever had any.

#12 Another great hole that has been wronged bythe removal of the blinding Alps dune/mound, and hopefully will be properly restored. RR is slated to be over-seeing this, so look for the mound to be a third of the original size and covered in rough grasses. Simpply a perfect green, although very similar to #1. Still perfect. Loved the area in front of the green.

#13 While many don't think highly of a fully viewable, downhill Redan, I thought it was a very good golf hole. The concept was quite obviously well thought out by Raynor, althoguh a bit more slant to the green should have been acheived.

#14 The entire left side of the hole that is covered in rough grass needs to be completely cut down and maintained as fairway. to a perfect push-up Raynor green. The entire hole is bunkerless, and maybe one of the best bunkerless hole's I have ever played.

#15 The Eden Hole according to Roger Rulewich. Once a phenominal and unique take perfectly situated in the round, now a small get-by hole because they needed another par 3. A slap in the face to Seth Raynor.

#16 Another hole that is a prime example of  Yale's ignorance of what they have. Rebound mounds covered in rough grasses. A green that was flattened long ago. This isn't a Raynor hole anymore, it resembles something from Goat Hill National.

#17 Another slap in the face to the memory of Seth Raynor. This isn't a Principles Nose as I have come to know it. It is a over-grown mound with weeds in the middle of the golf hole blocking the green. While it may still blind the green, I'm not sure to know what to make of it. The Plateau green from my understanding has been recreated after being moved. It doesn't seem to have the dynamic of the National's, but it looks well placed.

#18 If Seth Raynor had never been to Scotland, you wouldn't know it. WOW!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

It's my fault for not steering you in the direction of
Westhampton.

If it's mounds, neat features and unique holes you like, Westhampton will be a treat for you.

And, it's only a half hour south of Friar's Head.

It is a wonderful golf course and is usually swept by a good breeze.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
We were going to go by the Westhampton on the way out, but time constraints and another tour of the National got in the way.

Next time though!

[Eric Pevoto]

Quote:  "#11 Another quagmire hole due to recent rains, the super who destoryed this green deserves to be kicked in the testacles....if he ever had any."

Tommy,do superintendents tend to stand at attention, free-kick, soccer-style, covering the goods, when you approach?  

Thanks for the hole-by-hole.  I've pored through Mr. Bahto's book the last few days, and I'm psyched to get up there and see the place.

I wonder, if the terrain at Yale was not so "inhospitable" would there have been more significant changes through the years?  It sounds fortunate that the terrain has meant the alterations have been mostly cosmetic.  The maintenance is easily fixable, no?

Without having ever seen a MacDonald, Raynor, Banks course, I think I'm most excited to see the Biarritz 9th.  Also looking forward to seeing the scale of the greens.

[redanman]

There's a cleanliness and respectability to the artificiality of Seth Raynor's creations, for me.  Sometimes, no attempt whatsoever to appear natural, but without the goofiness and irritability of the linear Cupp course on HHI.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Redanman, you put it pefectly.

Eric,
There is little doubt in my mind that the course is somewhat recoverable with:
1. The right superintendent
2. A loyal and passionate crew that takes great pride intheir work. The current crew look to be the type that are only there for the next break, quitting time and payday.
3. A complete Yale-like golf course history education for all of the parties involved.

When I say "somewhat," I'm pertaining to the work that has eliminiated many important features on the course, like the flattening of greens and the idoues bunkes that have been implemented and look nothing like Seth Raynor ever constructed.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

And yes, they should prepare for me if they see me with my Tom Dempsey-style kicking shoe on!:)

[Eric Pevoto]

It's been discussed here before, but IMO the sharp lines and artificiality adds drama and tends to make the "natural" look that much more so.  I like the dichotomy.