[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

just to pull you up on one point. The reason it became unacceptable for people not to smoke in a restaurant is because it became illegal and not because most people didn't like it. The reason it is accepted to use mobiles on the course is the perceived necessity to allow it and not because most people don't mind it. If you play at my course then mobiles are allowed but only on silent mode.

Jon

[Dan_Callahan]

Just about anything can interfere with your enjoyment if you let it. Slow play. Overwhelming  BO. An annoying accent. Poor choice in clothes. Political views. Food in teeth. Ugly swing. Bad language. Weird mannerisms.

Before you let it get to you, I suggest you listen to David Foster Wallace's commencement address at Kenyon College from a few years ago. It's not overly long and might be the best 25 minute speech you'll ever hear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vET9cvlGJQw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jon - Yes I am aware it was made illegal to smoke in resturants. I am merely pointing out that looking back, wasn't it disgusting to have to breathe someones cigar or cigarette smoke while you ate your meal, far more annoying than someone texting their mate in my world, but each to his own.

I am 100% that in taking/receving calls they should be done in a manner not to be noisey. Our rules are no silly ring tones with phones preferred on a silent or low volume.
 
Its about time you did a photo tour of your place, I'd like to see it properly but your a bit to north for me really, how long from St Andrews are you?

[Martin Toal]

There are few things more irritating that trying to size up or play a shot with one of your playing partners standing in the woods quietly but not imperceptibly saying " Yeah, dear ..... home soon ..... on the 16th ..... yeah, playing OK......nice birdie on the 10th .......love you ......... no, love YOU more ......". On the other hand, the phone comes in useful when he needs to call an ambulance to transport him to hospital for emergency removal of my sand wedge.

Martin if there are really only a few things that you find more irritating that this then so be it. None of that is any real big deal in my world.
[/quote]

OK, Adrian, if you require the necessary qualifier ...There are few things more irritating commonly seen in a round of golf ...

I was not suggesting, as you know, that world famine, terminal disease and whatever other calamities may befall the planet were not as irritating, and I was taking it as read that the appropriate comparator was reasonable etiquette rather than a feral anarchy.

Mobile phones are a great invention and provide many benefits, but they can be a curse too, and sometimes it is appropriate and necessary to be unavailable, and blessed relief to even the most techophilic of us. Golf courses, churches and libraries are examples of such places.

I remember as a junior hospital doctor (aka resident), an example of one who was continually enslaved by the bleep/pager. Even when off duty, back then, if I heard the traffic crossing bleep pr a microwave oven finish the programme, I unconsciously looked down at my belt to see who wanted me.

Nowadays, I play a game of golf, switch on my mobile at the end and invariably find the world has continued turning satisfactorily despite my radio silence.

I see a misdirection red herring emerging about smoking, BO etc. Just because one objectionable thing is not illegal doesn't mean that all such things should be tolerated.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Martin its just the way different people see mobile phone use, some see it as (A) a no big deal, some see it (B) with outrage. The problem is its not easy to satisfy both parties in this situation and ultimately the popularity of A or B will decide. If you were a one man band you might see things differently, there are lots of people that do not need absolute quick contact you perhaps fit that category. Thinking outside the square where would you put your tick if someone told you that would not join your club if they could not take their phone on the course (and consider it that you need members, your membership is not full).

A lot of clubs do not have friendly rules toward the under 40 and phone bans, the long socks with shorts, jacket and tie scenario are not box tickers to many under 40s. Who knows the 2025 Open Champion may have tattoos on his neck, purple hair and enough ironwork pierced through his face to pick up radio Sweden.

[Jon Wiggett]

Its about time you did a photo tour of your place, I'd like to see it properly but your a bit to north for me really, how long from St Andrews are you?

Yes Adrian, I know I have been promising the tour for a while now but finding the time whilst looking after the course, doing a few lessons and a few other sidelines like renovating the house leaves very little time. I am slowly getting things in place though.

 I am about 2 1/2 hours north of St. Andrews or 15 minutes north of Inverness. Try and make it up sometime as apart from my place there are a couple of other goat tracks in the area that might be of passing interest to you

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Just about anything can interfere with your enjoyment if you let it.

Slow play.

Agreed, and it's being addressed

Overwhelming  BO. An annoying accent. Poor choice in clothes. Political views. Food in teeth. Ugly swing. Bad language. Weird mannerisms.

None of which are intrusive and interfere with my concentration as I'm in the middle of my downswing

Before you let it get to you, I suggest you listen to David Foster Wallace's commencement address at Kenyon College from a few years ago. It's not overly long and might be the best 25 minute speech you'll ever hear:

Dan,

I've been through 5 heart procedures, high stage cancer, 8 operations on my eyes and minor medical issues like broken arms, legs and serious car accidents, so i don't need David Foster telling me about perspectives or life.

In addition, use tends not to be sporadic or occasional but systemic or constant.

So much so that a club, after publishing their restrictions on cell phone use, sent out 3 separate letters reminding the members of the rules.

Result:     No change

Thus, another letter went out stating that use would result in suspension for a period of not less than two weeks.

Result:  No usage.

Now, what changed ?

The importance of the calls ?

The importance of the members making/receiving calls ?

Or the consequences ?

It's like speeding on the highway, if you know you won't get caught, people speed, but when it's clear that you'll be caught and the consequences serious, you modify YOUR behavior.

Ditto cell phones.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vET9cvlGJQw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Dan King]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
Let me just say this, to some people it is 100% essential that they have their phone with them full stop. If you do not allow them those people cant play. Modern people (under 40) take them everywhere its just the way it is, Modern clubs allow them the Backward clubs do not. If the club has enough members and no cash problems then let them do what they want, but if you want visitors or new young members you absolutely must allow them.

More of the lets keep watering down the product in hopes that some day the youngsters will love our game and we will be as popular as football.

The alternative is to teach these kids about the traditions and customs of golf. Yes, it won't be all of theirs cup of tea. Some will decide not to play golf and will find other sports more willing to compromise standards. I got no problem with that, but then I'm not trying to make money from golf.

I 100% agree that the phones should be on a silent mode or extremely low volume and no silly ring tones.

Why is that? Maybe some kid with a silly ringtone will want to take up golf. Why are you not letting him? Is it because silly ringtones bother you? Should we make things that bother Adrian prohibited?

Cheers,
Dan King

Would that I could hand on unimpaired the great game as it was my good fortune to know it!
 --Charles Blair Macdonald

[Sean_A]

To suggest that golf needs to allow phones if it wants to attract custom is for the most part the idea of folks in the business trying to attract business.  We all know there are very few, if any people that have to be connected 24/7 or have to respond immediately to a phone buzz.  The bottom line is some folks are addicted to their phone.  They feel lost if it isn't at their side.  But Dan is right.  The tide has turned like all this electronic crap in golf.  In 10 years time people will wonder why there was such a fuss about phones as half the people in the golf bar sit around tables texting others about they are watching.  It will be a terrible shame.  This is partly why its refreshing (even if stupid) to visit clubs with long sock rules, dogs and members in salmon slacks who wouldn't dream of being so crass as to whip their phone out during a game or in the bar when there is a "down" moment.

Ciao    

[Wayne_Kozun]

To suggest that golf needs to allow phones if it wants to attract custom is for the most part the idea of folks in the business trying to attract business.  

The people that have enough money to join a private club will be in business and are likely to be the sort that want to be connected at all times.  Here in Toronto we have skated through the recession much better than the US and the UK yet the private clubs are wanting for members, perhaps due to supply outstripping demand in the last decade or so.  There are now very few clubs with waiting lists so rules like no cell phones, no denim, etc are falling by the wayside in the competition to attract new members.  Yes you don't really have to be connected 24/7 but being able to check your email at times makes you feel less guilty about being on the course and maybe lets you play one or two more rounds per year since there are times when you do have to be reachable and in the past you may have had to not play.  If you are not holding anyone up then what's the big deal.

[Sean_A]

To suggest that golf needs to allow phones if it wants to attract custom is for the most part the idea of folks in the business trying to attract business.  

The people that have enough money to join a private club will be in business and are likely to be the sort that want to be connected at all times.  Here in Toronto we have skated through the recession much better than the US and the UK yet the private clubs are wanting for members, perhaps due to supply outstripping demand in the last decade or so.  There are now very few clubs with waiting lists so rules like no cell phones, no denim, etc are falling by the wayside in the competition to attract new members.  Yes you don't really have to be connected 24/7 but being able to check your email at times makes you feel less guilty about being on the course and maybe lets you play one or two more rounds per year since there are times when you do have to be reachable and in the past you may have had to not play.  If you are not holding anyone up then what's the big deal.

Wayne

In the right hands, phones aren't a big deal at all.  But consider the folks coming into clubs now, a phone is like a third hand.  Do you see how these folks behave out in public?  Its incredible to watch folks totally ignore those around them.  This is common and acceptable behaviour.  The question isn't really should phones be allowed, but what sort of culture a club wants.  I think that if phones are allowed willy nilly, we shall see the same behaviour we see everywhere else with folks say under 40ish - and that behaviour has spread to 50 somethings else well.  I am not keen on my clubhouse turning into an "office space".

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
Let me just say this, to some people it is 100% essential that they have their phone with them full stop. If you do not allow them those people cant play. Modern people (under 40) take them everywhere its just the way it is, Modern clubs allow them the Backward clubs do not. If the club has enough members and no cash problems then let them do what they want, but if you want visitors or new young members you absolutely must allow them.

More of the lets keep watering down the product in hopes that some day the youngsters will love our game and we will be as popular as football.

The alternative is to teach these kids about the traditions and customs of golf. Yes, it won't be all of theirs cup of tea. Some will decide not to play golf and will find other sports more willing to compromise standards. I got no problem with that, but then I'm not trying to make money from golf.

I 100% agree that the phones should be on a silent mode or extremely low volume and no silly ring tones.

Why is that? Maybe some kid with a silly ringtone will want to take up golf. Why are you not letting him? Is it because silly ringtones bother you? Should we make things that bother Adrian prohibited?

Cheers,
Dan King

Would that I could hand on unimpaired the great game as it was my good fortune to know it!
 --Charles Blair Macdonald

You seem to be confused and not really have understood Dan.

[Wayne_Kozun]

As someone posted in this (or the other) thread - this is really about common courtesy.  At my club at the end of a round you often do see people checking their BBs or iPhones for a couple of minutes while sitting on the verandah waiting for the beers to come, but then they get put away and that is that.  In very few instances does it become a problem.

[Dan King]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
You seem to be confused and not really have understood Dan.

I'm not sure what you are saying here, but if you are having trouble with the English language let me know and I'll try to simplify things for you.

Cheers,
Dan King

Always remember that however good you may be the game is your master.
 --J.H. Taylor

[Greg Tallman]

In the time it took me to read each post in the topic I checked my phone 7 times.

Seriously though phones on the course are annoying but part of the culture today and something that is not going to change.

Can they roll back the cell phone at the same time they do the ball?

[Dan_Callahan]

Patrick,

Two points:

First, you must not have read my first post, which on second thought doesn't seem likely because you responded to it. So I'm guessing you chose only to consider that part which allowed you to make your point. Had you considered my entire post, you would have seen that my first sentence begins, "If it's not against the rules of the course..." The key part of that introductory phrase being the qualifier "if." Because your club has a policy against phones, I am in complete agreement that of course they shouldn't be used. Why are you surprised that conduct didn't change until real consequences were threatened? We all know that pace of play is a problem because there are no sanctions against slow play. Don't you think that if on Tour slow play, however defined, resulted in an automatic DQ, even the slowest of the slow would start running to his ball? Consequences have always shaped human conduct. It's not like it's somehow tied to an inherent evil in cell phones.

Second, that's a shame that the things you have gone through have set your mind in a place where you believe David Foster Wallace has nothing to teach you. He is widely regarded as one of the great American authors of the last 50 years. Whether you agree with his view or not, there is plenty to learn from his writing. I can't help but laugh at the irony of your comment. You are exactly the person he is talking about, so sure of your position that you aren't capable of seeing another side. You are the center of the universe.

[Carl Johnson]

Agreed.  Let's say the course prohibits cell phones.  But, someone (not a law abider) on the course has a cell phone, you see him (or her) use it, yet you do not have your own cell phone handy to report the culprit back to the pro-shop.  You are in big trouble.  Think about it.  Everyone needs to carry a cell phone at all times.  That's the American way.  (At least it will be as soon as we get the 28th amendment approved.)

[Ben Sims]

RJ,

Well put.  Now that you mention it, it's not the cell phones that bother me ... it's the people who imagine they are so important that they have to have them!

Tom,

I think you are missing the point.  It has nothing to do with self-importance--at least in my case.  It has everything to do with my responsibilities being more important than a leisure activity.  Only a self-important tool would consider his need to get away from the rat-race more important than someone's duty to others.  

[John Kavanaugh]

The point is that the future success of golf lies in the hands of selfish people. The joiners are either dead or dying.

[Dan Byrnes]

This is an issue of societal change.  There are folks who have previously been able to earn very nice livings and afford a nice private golf club and didn't need to e tied to their phone.  I remember when doctors didn't work in Thursdays.

Nowadays being connected is viewed as essential.  Probabally isn't true bit nonetheless it's viewed that way.  

The technology is what has allowed some many folks to have flexibility in their day.  This allows people to play golf when without the technology they woud be at the office.  

While their are certainly clubs that are so succesful they can ban cell phones and such, a much larger number of clubs are struggling to survive and may not be so able to implement such a ban.  It's primarily a demographic issue.  Younger people expect to always be connected.  Older folks who grew up differently see it as rude.

What is important like so many things in golf is how the cell phone use is handled.   This isn't all that different than common courtesy of letting faster groups through, fixing ball mark, replacing divots, not steping in other putting lines, not talking when folks are swinging etc.  a phone can be used with little disruption or it can cause a major disruption.  It essentially comes down to manners like so many other things.

I know for myself it provided me much more freedom than I previously have and without cell phone technology and alloweded me to play much more golf than otherwise.  If I was needed I could deal with a situation.  However, I always used it in a respectful manner.

Dan

[JR Potts]

RJ,

Well put.  Now that you mention it, it's not the cell phones that bother me ... it's the people who imagine they are so important that they have to have them!

Tom,

I think you are missing the point.  It has nothing to do with self-importance--at least in my case.  It has everything to do with my responsibilities being more important than a leisure activity.  Only a self-important tool would consider his need to get away from the rat-race more important than someone's duty to others.  

X2. Well said.

[noonan]

When I am golfing - my business is open - they need to be in contact with me in case of emergency - I also am a single father of a 16 year old son - he may need to speak with me

My phone is on  - and the ringer is silenced and on vibrate

No phone - no golf

[Jason Thurman]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
Let me just say this, to some people it is 100% essential that they have their phone with them full stop. If you do not allow them those people cant play. Modern people (under 40) take them everywhere its just the way it is, Modern clubs allow them the Backward clubs do not. If the club has enough members and no cash problems then let them do what they want, but if you want visitors or new young members you absolutely must allow them.

More of the lets keep watering down the product in hopes that some day the youngsters will love our game and we will be as popular as football.

The alternative is to teach these kids about the traditions and customs of golf. Yes, it won't be all of theirs cup of tea. Some will decide not to play golf and will find other sports more willing to compromise standards. I got no problem with that, but then I'm not trying to make money from golf.

[/quote]

Dan, I agree with you, with the exception of your statement that young people who want to use phones will "find other sports more willing to compromise standards." I play pickup basketball (poorly) and I also love fishing. I've never seen anyone pull out a cell phone while doing either of those activities, and if you're any good at either one you can easily spend two+ hours at it.

Occassionally someone may check their phone between pickup games, but they put it away when it's time to break the next game open. The consequence of holding the game up is losing their spot to play. As Patrick mentions, when consequences change and dictate that those on the phone are excluded, calls suddenly become much less important.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Two points:

First, you must not have read my first post, which on second thought doesn't seem likely because you responded to it. So I'm guessing you chose only to consider that part which allowed you to make your point. Had you considered my entire post, you would have seen that my first sentence begins, "If it's not against the rules of the course..."


I did read it.

Very few, if any clubs have rules about slow play, does that mean that it's OK ?

Very few clubs have rules about yelling on the golf course, does that mean it's okay to call to a friend two fairways over when another golfer in your group is in the midst of putting.

Just because a club does't prohibit the use of cell phones doesn't mean that they should be used.

Let's look at the USGA rule book.  
FIRST chapter:
ETIQUETTE;  BEHAVIOR ON THE COURSE.

Read the second paragraph, "The Spirit of the Game"

Read the second sentence.

It says the following:
"The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the rules."

Now, the third sentence:

"All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times,.........."

The final sentence of that paragraph.

"This is the Spirit of the game of golf"

Need I say more ?

Tell me how you can reconcile cell phone usage on the golf course with the above opening page in the USGA rule book ?

The key part of that introductory phrase being the qualifier "if." Because your club has a policy against phones, I am in complete agreement that of course they shouldn't be used. Why are you surprised that conduct didn't change until real consequences were threatened?


I'm not surprised, the problem is that too many clubs are reluctant to enforce the rules because too many of their friends violate the rules.

We all know that pace of play is a problem because there are no sanctions against slow play.


I couldn't agree MORE.

I've already cited how we reduced play from 4:50 to under 4:00 in one year by instituting consequences for slow play.

Unfortunately, clubs are reluctant to bite the bullet and introduce consequences for slow play.

Institute consequences and you'll reduce playing time.

Don't you think that if on Tour slow play, however defined, resulted in an automatic DQ, even the slowest of the slow would start running to his ball? Consequences have always shaped human conduct.


I prefer a stepped approach, warnings first, consequences second

It's not like it's somehow tied to an inherent evil in cell phones.

So liquor isn't the problem ?  

Second, that's a shame that the things you have gone through have set your mind in a place where you believe David Foster Wallace has nothing to teach you.

That's not what I stated.
Please go back and reread my reply.

He is widely regarded as one of the great American authors of the last 50 years.

Not everyone agrees with that opinion.
And, being a great author is no criterion for being the dispensor of sage advice.

Whether you agree with his view or not, there is plenty to learn from his writing.

I didn't say that there wasn't.
But, I don't need him to tell me about perspectives and life, especially when one experiences one's life hanging in the balance, something he knows nothing about.

I can't help but laugh at the irony of your comment.

You are exactly the person he is talking about, so sure of your position that you aren't capable of seeing another side.

This is where you clearly evidence that you neither know me nor what your talking about.
I'm clearly capable of seeing another side, whether I agree with it or not is another story.


You are the center of the universe.

Not at all, I'm just someone who doesn't buy into self indulgent B.S. no matter how much is piled on.

[Richard Choi]

What if I use my phone as my scorecard? Does that bother the beard pulling crowd here?

I never take a call or text during a round, but I keep all my score on the phone and use the phone as GPS as well. It has certainly reduced the junk in my bag and in my trunk and all of my scores and stats are automatically tracked. I am never going back to using the regular card unless I can help it.

Would me using my phone as a scorecard bother you? Why? Why is it any different than me taking the time to write things down on a card?

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