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Jay Flemma

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"Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« on: August 22, 2012, 12:57:50 PM »
I have to agree.  I've putted on paspalum a couple of times and I have to say the seeming lack of grain makes it more difficult to putt.  I feel it's less forgiving than bent for example.  If I'm not dead on when putting on paspalum, it won't go in, but other greens with more grain are more forgiving.

Geoff Ogilvy agreed saying he felt that the first three feet of any putt were a little uncertain.  he also said once the guys get used to it they might make a lot of putts.

Your thoughts?  Paspalum or no?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 04:43:44 PM by Jay Flemma »
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PCCraig

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Re: "Paspallum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2012, 01:07:40 PM »
Quote from: Jay Flemma on August 22, 2012, 12:57:50 PM
I have to agree.  I've putted on paspallum a couple of times and I have to say the seeming lack of grain makes it pore difficult to putt.  I feel it's less forgiving than bent for example.  If I'm not dead on when putting on paspallum, it won't go in, but other greens with more grain are more forgiving.

Geoff Ogilvy agreed saying he felt that the first three feet of any putt were a little uncertain.  he also said once the guys get used to it they might make a lot of putts.

Your thoughts?  Paspallum or no?

I don't think Paspallum is pore difficult to putt on, but I suppose I could use some pore experience on it. Are there any pore highly ranked courses other than Kiawah that have Paspallum on their greens?
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H.P.S.

Bill_McBride

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Re: "Paspallum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2012, 01:19:17 PM »
Have to say I don't really get that.  I've missed a lot more putts because of grain in my lifetime than for lack of grain. 
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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re: "Paspallum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2012, 01:20:52 PM »
Tiger overheard while practicing on The Ocean Course's Paspalium greens the week prior to the PGA said, I live these greens.  "I'll sink everything I hit."  Sees to be the case the first couple of days of the championship.  I have to disagree that they're less forgiving than Bermuda.  If you miss a putt on The Ocean Course, blame the Indian, not the arrow...
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Brent Hutto

Re: "Paspallum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2012, 01:44:39 PM »
Maybe it's not "grain" in the same sense as Bermuda or Bent grass but none the less I definitely found that the same putt at 4pm as you saw in the morning round at 9am will break differently. Maybe it's just a speed thing (this was around the 4th of July, prime growing season) and the greens just slow down after lunch.

But you sure have to take it into account. I had one putt on the 11th hole, from way over on the left back corner of the green to a flag in that same area. Lipped it out in the morning and was putting six hours later from virtually the same spot to the same hole. The caddie gave me the read and I thought I knew better because I'd just seen the same putt earlier that day. I hit it on the line that would have worked that morning and I miss the hole by at least 3" on the high side.

I said "That's not what it did this morning" and the caddie just laughed. From then on I just used his reads!
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Jim_Coleman

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Re: "Paspallum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2012, 04:03:07 PM »
PCraig:  Teeth of the Dog has paspallum greens.  The caddies still read the old (pre paspallum) grain, I think incorrectly.
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Jay Flemma

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Re: "Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2012, 04:44:22 PM »
Bulls Bay has new paspalum greens.
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Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Jeff Tang

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Re: "Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2012, 04:47:40 PM »
I don't understand, why would a green with no grain be more difficult to putt than one with grain?  I'm not aware that I've ever putted on greens like paspalum and don't have any experience with it, just trying to understand.
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So bad it's good!

Jay Flemma

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Re: "Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2012, 04:51:01 PM »
Some players say the ball skids more unpredictably for the first three feet and that it's tough to keep it on line.  That's what some said...I noticed iy a bit when I've putted on paspalum as well.
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Anthony_Nysse

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Re: "Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2012, 05:26:11 PM »
Quote from: Jay Flemma on August 22, 2012, 04:44:22 PM
Bulls Bay has new paspalum greens.

I believe that they opened with brand new Mini Verde last fall, replacing the bentgrass.

http://www.bullsbaygolf.com/memberupdates.html
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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Michael Whitaker

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Re: "Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2012, 06:24:01 PM »
Quote from: Anthony_Nysse on August 22, 2012, 05:26:11 PM
Quote from: Jay Flemma on August 22, 2012, 04:44:22 PM
Bulls Bay has new paspalum greens.

I believe that they opened with brand new Mini Verde last fall, replacing the bentgrass.

http://www.bullsbaygolf.com/memberupdates.html

Yes... Bulls Bay has Mini Verde greens.
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"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 11:44:48 AM »
As I look at my notes, you guys are right about that, it wasn't Bulls Bay.  Then maybe the fringe was paspalum and I got confused.  I remember my host at Bulls Bay saying they had four different kinds of grass.  He said zoysia was one and I can't remember the fourth.  Let me look it up then I may have gotten my courses confused as to which had the paspalum.  I know I putted on it one of the recent rounds and noticed a difference - I have to be absilutely perfectly on line or the putt wouldn't "hold the line" if you understand what I mean by that.  The question still stands:  do grasses with less grain make it a little harder to putt?  Does the lack of grain possibly make it tougher to putt?

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Bill_McBride

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Re: "Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 12:52:03 PM »
Quote from: Jay Flemma on August 23, 2012, 11:44:48 AM
As I look at my notes, you guys are right about that, it wasn't Bulls Bay.  Then maybe the fringe was paspalum and I got confused.  I remember my host at Bulls Bay saying they had four different kinds of grass.  He said zoysia was one and I can't remember the fourth.  Let me look it up then I may have gotten my courses confused as to which had the paspalum.  I know I putted on it one of the recent rounds and noticed a difference - I have to be absilutely perfectly on line or the putt wouldn't "hold the line" if you understand what I mean by that.  The question still stands:  do grasses with less grain make it a little harder to putt?  Does the lack of grain possibly make it tougher to putt?



Again I say no, it's much tougher to calculate the direction and effect of grain depending on factors such as time of day, humidity, etc etc.  a smooth bent or paspalum, start it on line, make putts.   Bermuda, good luck. 
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jeffwarne

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Re: "Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2012, 01:41:59 PM »
I'm think he meant to say the lack of GAME makes the greens harder to putt....... ;) ;D
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Forrest Richardson

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Re: "Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2012, 12:15:14 AM »
It matters how you care for it. Young, immature greens will have subtle grain if any. Older greens, if not verticut and cared for, will develop grain...Johnny Miller's favorite term. Our 5+ year old SeaDwarf Paspaulm greens at Las Palomas behave nicely and have grain, but it is not as noticeable as Bermuda in my opinion. Bermuda follows the sun. Paspalum simply moves in every direction seeking water or nutrients. It cares less about the sun and mowing...just grows and creeps.
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Greg Chambers

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Re: "Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2012, 01:25:28 AM »
Forrest,

Were the greens at Olivas Links planted as paspalum?
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"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Forrest Richardson

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Re: "Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2012, 11:11:53 AM »
Olivas Links greens are bent. Fairways, approaches are Paspalum.
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re: "Paspalum almost has no grain to speak of" - Woods
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2012, 07:00:36 PM »
One thing for sure is that Paspalum grows FAST.  We have to use growth regulators on it so that the afternoon rounds aren't substantially different that the morning rounds with regard to green speeds....
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