Raynor one shot holes as a set (the case for Shoreacres)

[Ted Sturges]

I was lucky enough to visit Shoreacres last week.  I had not been there in at least 10 years.  I remembered the course as very good and very fun to play.  This visit impressed me even more.  I had not remembered how great their Eden hole is!  Stunning.  I was also delighted to see that they had removed the trees between the 9th and 18th holes, and that they had reconstructed some bunkers in their place.  Those two holes represent the upside of what a talented architect can do with basically flat property.

The redan and the biarritz sit adjacent to one another in the NW corner of the property.  I don't remember seeing those two holes sitting next to each other on any other Raynor course (can anyone come up with another example?).  The short hole is one of the most famous short holes, as it plays downhill, with the tee up on a bluff and the green complex sits down in a valley with a stream running around the front and right side of it. 

I got to thinking that as a set, these might be among Raynor's best (maybe THE best).  The redan is probably the weakest (and it appeared that the supt had the green complex watered to the point that the redan shoulder provided no "kick" to balls played to it (the ball just sort of plugged).  The redan looks great, but in comparison to the Eden (plays over a retention pond and the green complex is pushed up with the traditional Eden bunkering in place) it falls short (especially playing as soft as it was).  The biarritz is one that mows the entire green complex as a green.  On Saturday, the hole was cut front left and I hit 6 iron, and on Sunday the hole was cut back right and I hit 3 wood.  Awesome golf hole.  The short is perhaps the prize of their Raynor one shot holes.

Is this the best "set" of Raynor par 3's?

What others would the panel put up as among Raynor's best "sets"?

TS

[Phil McDade]

Ted:

Blue Mound has a very good Redan and Short; the Biarittz would be much better if the front half was mown as green instead of short fairway grass. The Eden is merely OK. But I'd say 2 (and a half! ) of the par 3s there are very good.

[Jud_T]

Ted,

I love Shoreacres, it's my favorite course in the metro Chicago area.  The Biarritz however pales in comparison with those at Yale and Tamarack (technically Banks). 

[Ted Sturges]

Ted,

I love Shoreacres, it's my favorite course in the metro Chicago area.  The Biarritz however pales in comparison with those at Yale and Tamarack (technically Banks). 

I have never been to Tamarack.  Yale's biarritz has to be (along with Fishers Island) Raynor's best adaptation(s) of that hole.  But...I'm talking about the one shot holes as a "set".  What is better than Shoreacres?  I love the set at Camargo, and at Yeamans Hall Club, but I think both fall below the standard of the "set" at Shoreacres.

TS

[Bart Bradley]

Mountain Lake's are pretty awesome.

Bart

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I was lucky enough to visit Shoreacres last week.  I had not been there in at least 10 years.  I remembered the course as very good and very fun to play.  This visit impressed me even more.  I had not remembered how great their Eden hole is!  Stunning.  I was also delighted to see that they had removed the trees between the 9th and 18th holes, and that they had reconstructed some bunkers in their place.  Those two holes represent the upside of what a talented architect can do with basically flat property.

The redan and the biarritz sit adjacent to one another in the NW corner of the property.  I don't remember seeing those two holes sitting next to each other on any other Raynor course (can anyone come up with another example?).  The short hole is one of the most famous short holes, as it plays downhill, with the tee up on a bluff and the green complex sits down in a valley with a stream running around the front and right side of it. 

I got to thinking that as a set, these might be among Raynor's best (maybe THE best).  The redan is probably the weakest (and it appeared that the supt had the green complex watered to the point that the redan shoulder provided no "kick" to balls played to it (the ball just sort of plugged).  The redan looks great, but in comparison to the Eden (plays over a retention pond and the green complex is pushed up with the traditional Eden bunkering in place) it falls short (especially playing as soft as it was).  The biarritz is one that mows the entire green complex as a green.  On Saturday, the hole was cut front left and I hit 6 iron, and on Sunday the hole was cut back right and I hit 3 wood.  Awesome golf hole.  The short is perhaps the prize of their Raynor one shot holes.

Is this the best "set" of Raynor par 3's?

What others would the panel put up as among Raynor's best "sets"?

TS

I too played Shoreacres recently and will echo your remarks... a very good, and probably more importantly, fun course.  The par 3's stood out and as it was my first Raynor, i was excited to see these template holes.  In fact, at the Biarritz, the pin was up front, and after playing our shots, I made my playing partner and caddies wait while I demonstrated my complete geekiness by hitting a low bullet so i can see the teeshot run through the valley and up to the back level.  They all thought i was a bit odd.

[Alex Lagowitz]

Although Banks, if Forsgate was in championship condition, it would have one of the best (if not the best) set of par 3s

[RJ_Daley]

I didn't play enough Raynor courses to make a definitive statement of which has the best set of par 3, but of the 4 I played, Blue Mound had the best.  Phil didn't mention the 17th Eden, but having then recently been given a bit of a primer on the 'lost' Eden at Waunotonomy by Mr. Bahto, I thought BMCC had all the elements George explained to me. 

The BMCC Biarritz 3rd played better in my opinion than the 16th at Yeaman's Hall.  Both didn't have the front tier green HOC.  In watching the 3rd for several groups come through at the Wis State Am several years ago, I don't think a single player tried the traditional bound in off the back of the front tier or downslope from the front tier to the reappearance up to the back tier.  I myself in one of my only 2 plays there managed a nice 3 iron low and just the right distance on the front tier, and it played as I hoped, skipping and disappearing, then making the back tier.  But both times I played there the course was too soft and that shot was pretty lucky. 

The short is very good at BMCC, and maybe at parity with Yeaman's, with a nice thumbprint on both.

I think Yeaman's is the most classic redan, yet BMCC is brawnier. 

CCofC is the most divergent yet interesting of the Raynor repetoire of template par 3s in my view, and Waunotonomy is the most vague. 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Having played a pretty fair amount of Raynor courses, I have a lot of trouble seeing the par 3's among his best.  Very simply, the redan does not work, and is a boring  green at best.  The same can be said for the Biarritz since it is a 3/4 football field with an 18 inch channel.  Maybe because Chicago does not have any truely great courses, there is an effort to make things seem better.  Every  Raynor around metro-Ny has better par 3's as a whole than Shoreacres.  As for great 3's, Fox Chapel, Mountain Lake, Fishers Island, Southampton, and Camargo are far superior.  When thinking of Shoreacres, it has a great 2nd, and an awesome stretch of 10-13.  

[John Ezekowitz]

I have only played a few Raynor courses and would love some comments on how Mountain Lake's redan stacks up against his other redans. I really, really enjoyed playing that hole.

[Alex Lagowitz]

I have only played a few Raynor courses and would love some comments on how Mountain Lake's redan stacks up against his other redans. I really, really enjoyed playing that hole.

Mountain Lake's Redan would prob fall in the middle-of-the-pack of redans.
It's downhill, you can see the entire green, and it does not have the fierce nature that a redan should have.

Some of his better redans are:

- CC of Fairfield
- Yeaman's Hall
- CC of Charleston (reverse)

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Typically falling under the radar, Southampton, Westhampton, and North Shore have really strong redans.  Westhampton has an all-world punchbowl par 3. 

[George Pazin]

Haven't seen any others, but the Eden, Short and Biarritz at Fox Chapel are really great (especially the Biarritz). The Redan is as well, though some might take issue with the fact that it is a reverse Redan.

[Howard Riefs]

Haven't seen any others, but the Eden, Short and Biarritz at Fox Chapel are really great (especially the Biarritz). The Redan is as well, though some might take issue with the fact that it is a reverse Redan.

The Biarritz at Fox Chapel looks all-world based on the visuals during the PGA Champions Tour tournament in June and the below photos from Bill McKinley's tour:

17th Hole
Par 3 231/223

Biarritz

The penultimate hole is the final par 3 of Raynor's set and it is extremely impressive to look at and play.  You get your first glimpse of this awesome green complex as you tee off on the 7th hole.  It is a full length biarritz green and the swail is about 4 feet deep.  Ya know what, I'm just going to stop talking and let the pictures tell the story

The view as you walk off of 7 tee


One more look


From the tee, late in the afternoon


Left bunker.  Deep...


Me posing in the swale

[Jud_T]

Howard,

That looks very similar to Tamarack except the bunkers, particularly on the left side are significantly steeper and deeper at Tammy.  I'm going to post some pix of the course when I can get my act together.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Although Banks, if Forsgate was in championship condition, it would have one of the best (if not the best) set of par 3s
Alex, how could you not mention the Knoll ?

Westhampton probably has a stronger Redan than Southampton.
Ditto the Short.
Their hybrid Biarritz's are interesting.

As is the punchbowl 3rd at Westhampton and the Eden like 10th at Southampton.

Both sites benefit from good winds making the par 3's all the more interesting, especially the short 11th at Westhampton, which is right on the water.

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm glad the Jorge Pazino mentioned Foxy Chapelino...that's a tremendous quartet of 3s. The least memorable in my mind, the Eden, comes first. Then the Reverse Redan with the endangered slope. The short just hangs out at the back of the property, and the BEEEEEEaritz cracker closes the bar down at four a.m. (that's when they close in Buffalo, at least.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ron,

That brings up an interesting question.

Which of the template par 3's have been the most successful to produce ?

While I like them in general, are there any really great reverse Redans ?

And, are most of them downhill ?

Ditto the Eden, GCGC's and NGLA's appear to be the best of the bunch, but are there other outstanding Edens.

The "short" would seem to be the easiest to successfully reproduce

[Alex Lagowitz]

Although Banks, if Forsgate was in championship condition, it would have one of the best (if not the best) set of par 3s
Alex, how could you not mention the Knoll ?

Westhampton probably has a stronger Redan than Southampton.
Ditto the Short.
There hybrid Biarritz's are interesting.

As is the punchbowl 3rd at Westhampton and the Eden like 10th at Southampton.

Both sites benefit from good winds making the par 3's all the more interesting, especially the short 11th at Westhampton, which is right on the water.

Patrick,

The Knoll has a good redan, good biarritz, ok short, and a terrible eden.
The eden really throws me off and puts it out of the top tier for a set of par 3s.
Also, the redan looks nice, but its conditioning is not great.  The kick-board is not really useable and the slope is more towards the tee than front to back.  The ridge in the green artificially creates some slope, and the green is not that interesting when putting (aside from the ridge).

IMO, George overrates the Biarritz, often claiming its the 'best surviving example'.  It certainly does not play very well.  The front and swale are not firm, and although the back of the green has slope, it's very soft, so carrying the ball to the back is the best option.
I also prefer full greens rather than the back only because of the ability to run the ball up and the fun-factor of putting through the swale if you come up short.

The short hole is typically bunkered, however the back tee is unnecessary.  The green isn't unbelievable, and if I remember correctly, it doesn't have the desirable horseshoe ridge.  The back bunker was also unrestored (i think).

The eden just doesn't look like an eden.  The green is partially blind, and the bunkering is not great.  While it is a decent par 3, it was not a good representation of an eden.  Only because I had played the 3 beforehand was I able to certainly say this was the eden.  No back to front slope and awkward bunkers short of the green.

[Alex Lagowitz]

Ron,

That brings up an interesting question.

Which of the template par 3's have been the most successful to produce ?

While I like them in general, are there any really great reverse Redans ?

And, are most of them downhill ?

Ditto the Eden, GCGC's and NGLA's appear to be the best of the bunch, but are there other outstanding Edens.

The "short" would seem to be the easiest to successfully reproduce

ECCC has a great eden hole #11. 

CC of Charleston's reverse redan is vicious looking.  I've never played it, but it looks to play the part.  I do not believe this is downhill but don't hold that against me.
Forsgate's 7th could be good, however the soft run-up and setting (the overhanging wires and houses) kill the hole.  When designed, I bet this hole was good.  This is downhill.
However, almost ALL redans are flat or mildly downhill.  Are there any that are uphill?


The redan must have been the hardest to build because the of the land.  Biarritz;s can be made on almost any land and work best on flat land.  Same goes for short.
The eden hole works best with a slight incline in the land, especially helping the needed back-to-front sloping green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Alex,

Conditions, good conditions are essential in the play of a Biarritz, but you can't fault the architect and the architecture because a club fails to provide the appropriate playing conditions.

I think most Biarritz's didn't have the front portion as putting surface, I think that's a rather recent trend.

[Tom_Doak]

Ted:

Mr. Dye always said Camargo had the best set of short holes, Shoreacres second best.

Personally, I learned a lot from studying the differences in those holes, years ago.  But at this point they all just blend together, and I'd rather see something else -- anything else.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

A couple of uphill redans
CC of Fairfield #9


Piping Rock Club #3

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Shoreacres 3's



The kicker lacking redan

[RJ_Daley]

Blue Mound CC in Milwaukee's Redan, 13th.  This shows the dramatic and well defined 'kicker' hill.  If maintained firm and fast, a low shot into this kicker should perform as designed.  But, if too soft, not so much... 



The back side of the kicker, which before Renaissance resto work, had maple trees on the edge of the kicker, now looks great.




Blue Mound's short, is more down hill and has a more defined thumbprint than the light of this photo shows: