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Patrick_Mucci

Do cost constraints
« on: August 18, 2012, 12:35:56 PM »
make for a better golf course ?

Do they force the architect to be more creative ?

Looking back to some of the early architects who migrated from the UK and their sense of "thrift", it seems like they created quality courses that lasted for close to a century, while at the same time being very efficient in terms of design, construction and cost.

Donald Ross and others seemed to have accomplished more with less.

Which produces a better golf course, an unlimited budget or a limited budget ?

Let's eliminate anything in between and unusual sites for the purpose of the discussion.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 01:04:04 PM »
Generally speaking the more money the better. Some find it easy to waste it and its all about opinion if the money has been best spent or wasted. The really great sites where the right soils exist are very rare, so lots of cost are usually involved importing the right materials to create the best soils.
You can be creative spending money or thrifty,but  real costs of shaping up a green with a D6 is often really only say $500 so its no big deal in the grand scheme, fairway constructions would be more dollars so if you see greatness more in 'the greens' good or bad is not reallyaffected by price.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tony Ristola

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2012, 04:22:48 PM »
Pat,

It's easy to move dirt today, and in doing so often the charm is lost. On courses where it isn't so... someone has been sweating details big time. There just isn't that much sweating going on today.

Once upon a time the words "excellence and economy" were a mantra for golf architects. They moved dirt largely to build greens, tees and hazards. Rocks were hauled off to areas close by and covered with dirt. Routings were used to maximize natural assets. Of course, they weren't sandwiching holes between houses, and carts (and those ugly paths) weren't in existence. Yes... they were forced to be creative, to find novel solutions, to leave well enough alone and integrate. To use "mental labour" to generate excellence economically.

Is this the case today? I don't think so. Of course... there are exceptions, but look at the courses built since the boom years in the 1980's. Somewhat repetitive isn't it? That's not to say there hasn't been some tremendous work done... there has been, but on the whole a lot of folks pumped in a lot of money to get prefab products; McGolf.

You need enough to do the job well. No more, no less. On well draining sandy soils it can be cheap if you leave well enough alone; on rock or nasty soils, or through forests it gets more expensive.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 04:29:22 PM by Tony Ristola »

David_Elvins

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 06:28:38 PM »
The really great sites where the right soils exist are very rare, so lots of cost are usually involved importing the right materials to create the best soils.

...But he clubs/developers with the least money will seek out the sites with a natural advantage and lower construction costs, usually leading to sites that are better suited to golf...and therefor better golf courses. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2012, 03:53:30 AM »
The really great sites where the right soils exist are very rare, so lots of cost are usually involved importing the right materials to create the best soils.

...But he clubs/developers with the least money will seek out the sites with a natural advantage and lower construction costs, usually leading to sites that are better suited to golf...and therefor better golf courses. 
No thats highly unlikely. Most clubs/developers have the site or location and the golf course has to fit that. Rarely does 'dream golf' happen and even rarer will 'dream golf' work.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2012, 07:32:41 AM »
David and Adrian,

Don't you think that the vision of the developer influences costs ?

In other words, what does the developer want the course to be, understanding that he's determined and secured the site ?

Ian Andrew

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2012, 07:57:06 AM »
,

« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 07:14:52 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2012, 10:04:59 AM »
David and Adrian,

Don't you think that the vision of the developer influences costs ?

In other words, what does the developer want the course to be, understanding that he's determined and secured the site ?
Yes. The developer is obviously the numero uno in the whole plan what he wants and the depth of his pocket is pretty much going to be it. An architect can have almost zero influence in getting him to spend amounts of money he does not have, but could persuade him that certain monies are best saved or spent in another direction. Some architects will do this some will simply see it as not in their remit. Architects are likely to have very good relationships with their client in the early and formative times the architect can be the link to gettig the developers idea onto paper and in the ground, they may fall out later over money but thats normal in business with seven figures involved.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom_Doak

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2012, 11:40:08 AM »
Patrick:

It's not necessarily cost constraints that increase creativity.  It's constraints of any kind. When you can keep doing "anything you want," as Pete Dye and Tom Fazio were able to do for years, it's very very hard not to repeat yourself and get stale.

Constraints can come about from any number of things:

Budget
Severe topography
Severe features
Client's goals
Dedication to not moving earth
etc.

In my experience, all of these "constraints" can in fact lead to greater creativity and a better golf course, if accepted by the architect as part of the puzzle he has to sort out.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2012, 05:10:20 PM »
Tom Doak,

With respect to the creative process, do you draft alternate routings and alternate holes based upon the potential availability of additional funds ?

Bart Bradley

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2012, 06:15:00 PM »
Patrick:

Very interesting question?

Can you name some courses that were "more creative" that were built with "cost constraints".

All courses likely have some sort of cost constraints, but I assume you mean to ask about low budgets?

I will say this.  In modern times, many of the best golf courses have been built by developers/owners with SIGNIFICANT wealth.  Perhaps Ballyneal is the exception.  Are there others?

Golfweek's Modern
1.  Sand Hills -- Rich guy
2.  Pac Dunes -- Rich guy
3.  Old Mac -- Rich guy
4.  Whistling Straits -- Rich guy
 (you get the idea) 

Tom Doak, when building Ballyneal were there sacrifices made because of a limited budget?

Bart

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2012, 08:38:23 PM »
Bart,

Hidden Creek would be one.

In non-modern times which courses were built by guys with no wealth ?

Bart Bradley

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2012, 09:15:36 PM »
Patrick:

I really don't know.  What about The Old Course or Lahinch? 

I don't know the history of Hidden Creek.

Do you think when courses are built by guys with significant wealth there are really cost constraints?  For example, it became clear when I read Dream Golf that Mr. Keiser wanted Bandon to be a financial success and as a good businessman watched his costs.  But it also was clear and remains clear, that he would acquire more property, spend more money, etc to make his dream courses come to life.  In the end, the cost was only constrained by his apetite...not by his resources.  I think your question becomes much more relevant and interesting in the cases where the developer is truly limited in the available resources...but there aren't too many of those that I can name.  And among the highest rated modern (you asked if cost contraints lead to better design), there don't appear to be many on first glance.

Bart

David_Elvins

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 09:22:38 PM »
No thats highly unlikely. Most clubs/developers have the site or location and the golf course has to fit that. Rarely does 'dream golf' happen and even rarer will 'dream golf' work.

It's not really unlikely.  There are 15-20 clubs  in and around Melbourne that I could name off the top of my head that located or relocated to sandy soil in areas that offer no geographical advantage.  Playing conditions and quality of golf course was usually the biggest factor, but ease and value of construcution on modest budgets was a significant factor for a lot of these clubs. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2012, 10:59:08 PM »
Patrick:

I really don't know.  What about The Old Course or Lahinch? 

What about them ?

They're also not in the U.S. and they weren't built recently.


I don't know the history of Hidden Creek.

Do you think when courses are built by guys with significant wealth there are really cost constraints? 

ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVICALLY.

Do you think individuals get wealthy by wasting money ?  By being inefficient ?


For example, it became clear when I read Dream Golf that Mr. Keiser wanted Bandon to be a financial success and as a good businessman watched his costs. 

"Watched his costs"  Doesn't that confirm what I stated ?


But it also was clear and remains clear, that he would acquire more property, spend more money, etc to make his dream courses come to life. 

The dream being not one course, not two courses, not three courses, but four or more courses.
Do you think you can acquire property and build five courses for the price of one ?



In the end, the cost was only constrained by his apetite...not by his resources. 

Not true, while his resources were ample, his financial disciplines controlled costs.
Bigger projects cost more money.
Four courses cost more than one, but, you can bet that he was fiscally responsible. 


I think your question becomes much more relevant and interesting in the cases where the developer is truly limited in the available resources...but there aren't too many of those that I can name.  And among the highest rated modern (you asked if cost contraints lead to better design), there don't appear to be many on first glance.

Hence your statement about rich guys versus non-rich guys and the courses they built is a figment of your imagination.
A non-existant hypothetical.


Modest or poor guys, with limited resources don't build expensive golf courses


Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2012, 02:30:56 AM »
No thats highly unlikely. Most clubs/developers have the site or location and the golf course has to fit that. Rarely does 'dream golf' happen and even rarer will 'dream golf' work.

It's not really unlikely.  There are 15-20 clubs  in and around Melbourne that I could name off the top of my head that located or relocated to sandy soil in areas that offer no geographical advantage.  Playing conditions and quality of golf course was usually the biggest factor, but ease and value of construcution on modest budgets was a significant factor for a lot of these clubs. 
David think globally. Rarely does a developer ring an architect whom he wants to design his course and say he has no land. If I wanted to build a course I dont want to do build it in America or Australia because I live in England and as importantly I want to build it close to where I live, so if there are no great soils what do I do? A: Build with the soils I have got or B: Build a course 7,000 miles away. Answer is highly unlikely.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2012, 07:22:25 AM »
Patrick,
I think the only courses built in the last few decades by people without wealth are family-owned and operated daily fee courses.  The best I that comes to mind is Elkhorn in Oregon.   IIRC, Elkorn was designed by the owner.

David_Elvins

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2012, 08:36:42 AM »
David think globally. Rarely does a developer ring an architect whom he wants to design his course and say he has no land. If I wanted to build a course I dont want to do build it in America or Australia because I live in England and as importantly I want to build it close to where I live, so if there are no great soils what do I do? A: Build with the soils I have got or B: Build a course 7,000 miles away. Answer is highly unlikely.

Adrian,

Not every sandy site is a remote "dream Golf project".  Your hypothesis that you can either build a golf course where you live on bad soil or 7000 miles away on sand and they are the only two option, is ridiculous.  There are sandy sites all over the place if you look hard enough, and smart golfer gravitate to these areas because they know they will get better value for money when building their golf course. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2012, 09:54:02 AM »
David you are factually incorrect again. Sandy sites are relatively rare, in most European countries you could find plenty of places that are 100 miles from sand, in the UK exempting coastlands there are very few areas of sandy soils, if the catchment area of a golf club is predominantley sub 25 minutes then 90% of all golf courses will be too far away from sandy sites. This is the very reason why there are golf courses on bad soils, the need for golf.

What you are not understanding is that the land is often already owned, so it is what it is. The situation where the owned land is sand is very rare.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2012, 10:57:19 AM »
Patrick,

Yes, it is, at least in my experience.

I agree with TD that a low budget makes you route better to reduce earthmoving costs.  And more savings come from reducing the amounts of nature you take out of its naturalness, including not having to irrigate it, or irrigating it only temporarily.

After that, the savings come from cart path reduction or elimination, but not much creativity there.  Then, reducing green and tee size to reduce USGA recommendations related construction costs.

But those now standard or in some cases mandated costs are hard to compare to the early guys.  Ditto with irrigation. To me, the biggest frugality tests have always been in how much earth you move.  I would say my average earthmoving bill is under  200,000 yards, compared to a Fazio or JN or Dye at 500K-1M yards, although we can all come up with examples from each architect where they moved less.  I am not criticizing the above architects, and I do realize that many of their high end, housing related projects required them to move a lot of earth. 

I am merely pointing out that different architects do, as you surmise have a different mindset.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris Shaida

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2012, 11:20:59 AM »
... is a figment of your imagination.
A non-existant hypothetical.


Didn't your mom ever tell you that when you point your finger at somebody there's three pointing right back at cha? Leaving aside the, uh, logical fallacy of a 'non-existent hypothetical' for the moment, your premise is flawed as the category of golf courses built with an 'unlimited budget' probably has few to none in it--particularly if you strip away waterfalls, flowers, taco stands, sugar shacks, etc. from the calculation...

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2012, 01:34:02 PM »
Jeff,

I think you have to differentiate resort/residential projects from the other projects since golf is not necessarily the focus of the project.

Earth moving is expensive and this goes to the heart of the question.

Don't financial constraints reduce earth moving capacity and therefor increase creativity with the land that's there ?

Chris,

What courses that you've played have "waterfalls, flowers, taco stands, sugar shacks, etc" ?

Shadow Creek and others would probably fall into the unlimited budget category in the sense that the developer would spend whatever it took to produce the course envisioned.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2012, 03:35:15 PM »
Patrick,

Perhaps we have to separate them, but maybe not.  I have seen housing project courses with both limited and huge budgets.  (of course, the huge budget ones have gone to JN or Faz......) and as someone mentioned, some developers think a huge budget is required for a high end housing course, while others figure the course is a neccessary amenity to be built as cheaply as possible.  Sometimes in those cases, the developer figures he will sell it, and often cuts corners that would save maintenance dollars down the road.

In other cases, the eartmving goes up, primarily to sink golf holes 4-10 feet to provide a gentle downhill view from the surrounding lots.  In some cases, the golf course dirt is required to build up lots and/or balance the grades with surrounding lots, as opposed to being an internal balance.

But, as to your central theme, every course is different in its requirements, but in general yes, a course pretty much costs the same in irrigaation, full paths, etc.  Earthmoving is a big area where you can save money, and a tight budget course usually requires less earthmoving.  In my experience, it requires better routing to fit the land to reduce earthmoving.  That said, once a routing contains mostly natural golf holes that require little earthmoving to be good (basically building greens, tees and any fw hazards, which takes less than 100,000 CY) some gca's (myself included) then move another 50-75K of earth for what I call discretionary purposes, to valley out fw, build containment mounds, other hazards, etc.  And, some move way more!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2012, 05:28:57 PM »
Jeff,

Is it fair to say that since home sites take precedence, that residential courses are inherently handicapped due to the default routing ?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Do cost constraints
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2012, 05:47:22 PM »
Pat,

Perhaps in a general sense, in that its not "pure golf" and we realize that we have to accomodate homes.  But then, there are usually over 500-1000 acres to choose from for golf and housing rather than just 200 acres for 18 holes, so it usually all works out.

I usually end up routing the course and presenting it to the landplanners.  Sometime, they have an initial routing and I review and tweak it. Either way, we know going in that golf holes in housing work best in valleys. Honestly, in most cases I easily find good golf holes, since I prefer golf holes in valleys much of the time, and they prefer the golf holes in valleys, the argument (if any) comes from how high up a hill we can move a tee or green.  Frankly, I cannot recall too many instances of being forced into truly bad golf holes by a land planner.

Occaisionally, we have gotten cramped by a proposed clubhouse location, and in a few cases, I can recall having to route the course in certain areas that were wetlands, and in other, using portions of land the engineer told us would be too expensive to sewer because they were in a different watershed.  Not that those were bad holes, necessarily.  No. 7 at Colbert Hills is one such hole, and its generally considered one of the signature holes there.

So, the short (or medium length) answer is that we know going in that housing needs to be accomodated, but on a case by case basis, it hasn't typically felt like a real inherent handicap in actual practice.  All I know is in this market, those are compromises I would love to have to make again!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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