[Garland Bayley]

Dan

Being against something and tolerating that something are two very different things.  I would rather see kids place the ball where they like and have a go.  I see these family tees as yet another constraint which is unnecessary.  It seems adults these days forgot what childhood was like and prefer to structure everything about kids.  Its a great pity that we raise kids we don't seem to trust.

Ciao 

Sean-What about "Family Tees" has you making the leap that we don`t trust our kids?

I don't want to make a big issue out of this.  Some people love it when everything is just so, I would rather have elements spontaneity - especially if we are talking about kids.  I see it as just another way to organize children rather than allowing children to organize themselves.  I didn't seem to have a problem going round the course with friends dropping balls here there and everywhere to have a friendly yet competitive game.  Why is it necessary to put that structure in place rather than allowing kids to do it?  I can only assume its a trust issue - can't think of another reason to create fake teeing areas.  And if it costs money to create this structure I am very much against the idea.   

Ciao

"Johnnie is 6 years old and I caught him grabbing an oreo out of the cookie jar yesterday. He loves golf but after that little show of bravado I think I better have him play from the Family Tees. It`s really becoming a trust issue with this kid".

I thinks Sean has simply used the synonym trust for the word confidence that may more accurately reflect his meaning.
We need to have confidence in kids creativity and ability.

[BDuryee]

What age kids do you envision using these markers?  The kids old enough to go out in their own foursomes are doing exactly what you would hope for. Making up their own games and playing from where they want. It is the 5-10 year old beginners these work for. Total cost of the plates is less than 1000.   I can tell you they have already paid for themselves in the parent child tournaments we have had ranging in kids from 5-13 playing from the markers and the forward tees.

[Sven Nilsen]

Its interesting how the folks supporting this concept generally seem to be the ones with kids (Burr being the latest), while those arguing against it base their argument in theory, not experience.  I have yet to hear from a Father whose club has these markers who thinks its a bad idea.

[Tom Dunne]

Note that in Scotland this isn't even an issue because kids have their own wee courses on which to play and learn. I'd be prepared to oppose family markers if we converted some on-site driving ranges into 3-4 hole children's layouts. Oh, right, but that would mean spending money, too...

[Sean_A]

What age kids do you envision using these markers?  The kids old enough to go out in their own foursomes are doing exactly what you would hope for. Making up their own games and playing from where they want. It is the 5-10 year old beginners these work for. Total cost of the plates is less than 1000.   I can tell you they have already paid for themselves in the parent child tournaments we have had ranging in kids from 5-13 playing from the markers and the forward tees.

Why do tees have to be paid for?  Nothing has to be paid for or moved when the grass needs cutting.  

Ciao

[BDuryee]

What age kids do you envision using these markers?  The kids old enough to go out in their own foursomes are doing exactly what you would hope for. Making up their own games and playing from where they want. It is the 5-10 year old beginners these work for. Total cost of the plates is less than 1000.   I can tell you they have already paid for themselves in the parent child tournaments we have had ranging in kids from 5-13 playing from the markers and the forward tees.

Why do tees have to be paid for?  Nothing has to be paid for or moved when the grass needs cutting.  

Ciao

Sean,

I am not following.

[Bill Seitz]

Why do tees have to be paid for?  Nothing has to be paid for or moved when the grass needs cutting.  

Ciao

These are plates, not tee markers that stick out of the ground.  The mower goes right over them.  

[Garland Bayley]

Why do tees have to be paid for?  Nothing has to be paid for or moved when the grass needs cutting.  

Ciao

These are plates, not tee markers that stick our of the ground.  The mower goes right over them. 

And you will have to send out periodic maintenance workers to edge around them, because grass will immediately start to grow over them. From time to time they may have to be lifted and reset, because of grass growth, top dressing, settling, etc.

In essence, you are just creating a headache for no sufficient reason.

When needed, my club sets a little orange cone out to mark such an area for teeing. I would oppose them putting permanent markings in the ground.

[Sven Nilsen]

Garland:

Do you have kids?

Sven

[Ben Sims]

Garland:

Do you have kids?

Sven

Sven,

Why does having kids make the opinion more or less valid?  I don't have children, and if my club wanted to do this, I would be opposed.  Mainly because my dues would be going to something I don't think we need to pay for. 

[BDuryee]

So having somebody run around setting up little orange cones has no labor costs?  I'm sure the orange cones look very classy, but don't they add an obstruction for those playing for the regular tees?

[Garland Bayley]

So having somebody run around setting up little orange cones has no labor costs?  I'm sure the orange cones look very classy, but don't they add an obstruction for those playing for the regular tees?

When needed is when some event for the tykes is being held. There are already personnel doing the tasks for these events that put out and retrieve the cones. Of course they add no obstruction for regular play.

I have a child, but that has no bearing on my opinion on this matter.

[Sven Nilsen]

Garland:

Do you have kids?

Sven

Sven,

Why does having kids make the opinion more or less valid?  I don't have children, and if my club wanted to do this, I would be opposed.  Mainly because my dues would be going to something I don't think we need to pay for. 

Ben:

It has nothing to do with the validity of your opinion.  It has to do with appreciating the value.

I hope if this ever comes up for a vote at your club you'll take the time to ask a couple of guys who are dads if they think it is worth it.  There are 15 to 20 guys on this thread alone who would tell you it is (Garland and Mucci excepted, but every survey has to account for anomalies).  If you still don't want to support it, that's your prerogative.  But I hope you don't resign when you get outvoted and the extra $0.75 a month hits your bill.

Just like the political threads around here, this is getting tiresome.  I'm done playing Tiny Tim to our resident Scrooges.  

[Ben Sims]

Sven,

There is time and place for everything.  Being overly inclusionary removes any uniqueness or specialness from experience.  I've been to the French Laundry twice, and neither time did I see anyone under the age of 18 or so.  And thank goodness for that. 

I don't think beginners need or require pandering to.  They just need a place to hit a ball.  And markers with a fake scorecard/course rating/etc. aren't best for that purpose IMO.  Especially when that marker/course is being used during normal business hours.  Have a special event for kiddos?  Sure. 

[Jason Thurman]

I haven't heard anyone throwing a fit over these things. I've only heard people pointing out that they're unnecessary. Kids already tee it up in the fairway and play a spontaneous course that changes every time they go out, and they have a blast. This is like taking a kid who's having a blast coloring in a picture of Daffy Duck with a green bill and blue feathers and telling him he should instead do a "color by numbers" and use the formal colors. It's just a totally arbitrary formality where none is needed.

Do we need sidelines painted on backyard football fields? Should we install these same markers on our driveway basketball courts to make sure our kids are being "official" enough when they play around the world? I wonder if I've been failing my younger cousins by not marking their serving area clearly when we play family volleyball games. I let them hit from where they're comfortable, and never even thought about how I'm destroying their ability to keep a volleyball handicap at the age of 7.

[Bill Seitz]

This is like taking a kid who's having a blast coloring in a picture of Daffy Duck with a green bill and blue feathers and telling him he should instead do a "color by numbers" and use the formal colors. It's just a totally arbitrary formality where none is needed.

I'm not sure where this is coming from?  Where has anyone stated that if a course installs these markers, kids will be required to play from them?  My club has tee areas for grown ups, but as far as I know, I'm not required to play from them if I don't want to (except in a tournament).  Kids don't need painted lines on a backyard football field, but sometimes its fun to walk over to the local high school and play on the fields with the lines.  Doesn't mean you have to do it all the time.   

[Jason Thurman]

So you're saying clubs should install these markers so kids will not feel obligated to play from them?

Isn't walking over to the local high school sort of like walking back to the real tees?

[Tim Martin]

Sven,

There is time and place for everything.  Being overly inclusionary removes any uniqueness or specialness from experience.  I've been to the French Laundry twice, and neither time did I see anyone under the age of 18 or so.  And thank goodness for that.  

I don't think beginners need or require pandering to.  They just need a place to hit a ball.  And markers with a fake scorecard/course rating/etc. aren't best for that purpose IMO.  Especially when that marker/course is being used during normal business hours.  Have a special event for kiddos?  Sure.  

First of all I am really impressed that you have been to the French Laundry and found a way to slip that in with seemingly no correlation to the subject topic. Second of all what does that mean during normal business hours? The only time they should play is at a special event? If and when you have children see if you still feel the same way.

[Garland Bayley]

Sven,

There is time and place for everything.  Being overly inclusionary removes any uniqueness or specialness from experience.  I've been to the French Laundry twice, and neither time did I see anyone under the age of 18 or so.  And thank goodness for that.  

I don't think beginners need or require pandering to.  They just need a place to hit a ball.  And markers with a fake scorecard/course rating/etc. aren't best for that purpose IMO.  Especially when that marker/course is being used during normal business hours.  Have a special event for kiddos?  Sure.  

First of all I am really impressed that you have been to the French Laundry and found a way to slip that in with seemingly no correlation to the subject topic. Second of all what does that mean during normal business hours? The only time they should play is at a special event? If and when you have children see if you still feel the same way.

At my club, the kids that play the special events with the temporary cone markers play from their parents' tees during "normal business" hours. Some of these kids get to their ball quicker than their parents and hit it again before their parents catch up. A few times I have joined a parent I know and play along. It's really fun to watch these kids and their enthusiasm. Why start training kids stodgy golf from the beginning with designated tees and strict rules? Is that an early training for slow golf? Are you starting them with preshot routines and the whole shebang?

[Bill Seitz]

So you're saying clubs should install these markers so kids will not feel obligated to play from them?

Isn't walking over to the local high school sort of like walking back to the real tees?

This is seriously getting ridiculous.  I'm not saying courses should do anything.  I'm saying that if a course decides it wants to install these things, then great!  And installing them in no way obligates kids to play from them.  But sometimes kids like to challenge themselves against prior rounds just like adults do, and since its difficult for them to do so on adult tees, I think its nice that courses that provide these markers give them the...wait for it...OPTION to do so.  So far we've heard from two people who's clubs actually have this program and both are in favor (forgive me if I'm missing someone besides William and Dan). Here's what someone who has actually seen them in practice had to say:

All I know is that we have more kids playing today than we did 5 years ago before the tees popped up.  They're unobtrusive and you probably wouldn't even know that they're there unless you were looking for them.  IIRC, our total cost was under $50...

.

The Horror!

And no, if we're talking American football, then walking over the high school is not like walking to the back tees.  An apt analogy would be walking to the high school, putting on a full set of pads, and hiring referees to play full 11 on 11.  Of if you aren't American, then walking over to a fully marked field with 21 other kids, a ref, a couple of assistants, and full 8x24 goals.  

[Ben Sims]

Sven,

There is time and place for everything.  Being overly inclusionary removes any uniqueness or specialness from experience.  I've been to the French Laundry twice, and neither time did I see anyone under the age of 18 or so.  And thank goodness for that.  

I don't think beginners need or require pandering to.  They just need a place to hit a ball.  And markers with a fake scorecard/course rating/etc. aren't best for that purpose IMO.  Especially when that marker/course is being used during normal business hours.  Have a special event for kiddos?  Sure.  

First of all I am really impressed that you have been to the French Laundry and found a way to slip that in with seemingly no correlation to the subject topic. Second of all what does that mean during normal business hours? The only time they should play is at a special event? If and when you have children see if you still feel the same way.

Tim,

It is not incumbent upon me to explain the relatively simple analogy used to explain why some things are better left to adults.  I think playing golf on a scorecard is one of those things.  If the version of golf being given to children now involves special markers, scorecards, handicaps, etc, ad nauseum; then we're doing it wrong.  I'm tired of every single demographic being pandered to.  It is a disease of weakness in our modern culture.  Kids are kids.  Please let us let them be kids instead of asking them what they shot from the "level 1" tees.  I can't wait to play golf with my kid one day.  But it sure as heck won't involve me asking him/her what they shot.  At least not until they are at a level where it matters.  At 7--which is the age used in other posts--it doesn't. 

A friend of mine recently started our fantasy football league.  Our draft was a men's affair--kids and wives gone for the day.  Upon asking my friend what he had to do to convince his wife of that he said that he was now required to host a fantasy draft and league for his 8-year-old son and his friends.  I chock it up to another example of the entitlement that we have embued in our children. 

[Tim Martin]

Sven,

There is time and place for everything.  Being overly inclusionary removes any uniqueness or specialness from experience.  I've been to the French Laundry twice, and neither time did I see anyone under the age of 18 or so.  And thank goodness for that.  

I don't think beginners need or require pandering to.  They just need a place to hit a ball.  And markers with a fake scorecard/course rating/etc. aren't best for that purpose IMO.  Especially when that marker/course is being used during normal business hours.  Have a special event for kiddos?  Sure.  

First of all I am really impressed that you have been to the French Laundry and found a way to slip that in with seemingly no correlation to the subject topic. Second of all what does that mean during normal business hours? The only time they should play is at a special event? If and when you have children see if you still feel the same way.

Tim,

It is not incumbent upon me to explain the relatively simple analogy used to explain why some things are better left to adults.  I think playing golf on a scorecard is one of those things.  If the version of golf being given to children now involves special markers, scorecards, handicaps, etc, ad nauseum; then we're doing it wrong.  I'm tired of every single demographic being pandered to.  It is a disease of weakness in our modern culture.  Kids are kids.  Please let us let them be kids instead of asking them what they shot from the "level 1" tees.  I can't wait to play golf with my kid one day.  But it sure as heck won't involve me asking him/her what they shot.  At least not until they are at a level where it matters.  At 7--which is the age used in other posts--it doesn't. 

A friend of mine recently started our fantasy football league.  Our draft was a men's affair--kids and wives gone for the day.  Upon asking my friend what he had to do to convince his wife of that he said that he was now required to host a fantasy draft and league for his 8-year-old son and his friends.  I chock it up to another example of the entitlement that we have embued in our children. 

Ben- You always make me laugh pal. Oh and I've been to Sonic more than twice and I brought my kids.

[Tom Dunne]

Ben,

I agree with certain aspects of your last post. But just because a set of tees are present doesn't mean you have to keep score. For me, this isn't about "pandering", it's about signaling in a very basic way that kids are welcome on the course. I wouldn't take it for granted that they are. When I was a kid, that was not the way of the world. As I said in my last post, we didn't even go to the local muni until we were 12 or so. We went to the par-3 course. If more such beginner-friendly facilities were available, there'd be much less need to argue over family markers.

Maybe the world has changed, but for me the kind of unstructured play you're talking about never happened within a regulation golf course during "normal business hours." I wish courses (and, just as importantly, their patrons) were more receptive to that, but too often that's just not how it works, at least not around here.

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

That was a very good post and the first on this thread that has made me rethink my position.  Someone should pay you to write.  

I must admit that I didn't start playing golf until college, so I am not the best barometer of the olden days.  Maybe my biggest beef is with the scorecard and not the markers themselves.  

[William_G]

Sven,

There is time and place for everything.  Being overly inclusionary removes any uniqueness or specialness from experience.  I've been to the French Laundry twice, and neither time did I see anyone under the age of 18 or so.  And thank goodness for that.  

I don't think beginners need or require pandering to.  They just need a place to hit a ball.  And markers with a fake scorecard/course rating/etc. aren't best for that purpose IMO.  Especially when that marker/course is being used during normal business hours.  Have a special event for kiddos?  Sure.  

First of all I am really impressed that you have been to the French Laundry and found a way to slip that in with seemingly no correlation to the subject topic. Second of all what does that mean during normal business hours? The only time they should play is at a special event? If and when you have children see if you still feel the same way.

Tim,

It is not incumbent upon me to explain the relatively simple analogy used to explain why some things are better left to adults.  I think playing golf on a scorecard is one of those things.  If the version of golf being given to children now involves special markers, scorecards, handicaps, etc, ad nauseum; then we're doing it wrong.  I'm tired of every single demographic being pandered to.  It is a disease of weakness in our modern culture.  Kids are kids.  Please let us let them be kids instead of asking them what they shot from the "level 1" tees.  I can't wait to play golf with my kid one day.  But it sure as heck won't involve me asking him/her what they shot.  At least not until they are at a level where it matters.  At 7--which is the age used in other posts--it doesn't. 

A friend of mine recently started our fantasy football league.  Our draft was a men's affair--kids and wives gone for the day.  Upon asking my friend what he had to do to convince his wife of that he said that he was now required to host a fantasy draft and league for his 8-year-old son and his friends.  I chock it up to another example of the entitlement that we have embued in our children. 

hahahaha, and what does fantasy football have to say about you? 

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