[William_G]

Ben,

One definition of "certified golf course architect" is membership in the American Society of Golf Course Architects.

Not all clubs can enjoy a separate par-3 course such as that at Augusta, Olympic, Bandon, etc...

So it seems that when acreage and costs create a situation where other tees could help provide more flexibility for more golfers, the "architect" would have a plan for such.

This would help the game of golf, IMO.

Just look at the new "International" course in Aberdeen with all their tees for different conditions etc....

2 thumbs up to Hawtree in that regard.

Thanks

William,

The reason I asked is twofold.

1)  Writing about "certified" golf course architects implies that there is such a thing and insults those that have built great courses that aren't "certified" by your definition.  

2)  That brings me to the next point.  What is it about the family tee concept that needs an architect to approve it?  Are we that inept as humans that unless someone tells us that our kiddo can play from the fairway, then they can't?  

Lastly, what ever happened to kids paying their dues before they could do all the things older folks can?  I didn't get to fish for the deepwater fish with my dad on our vacations until I could handle it.  I didn't lose any passion because i was relegated to snagging baitfish.  I didn't decide flying was stupid because they didn't hand me a qualification day one.  Why do kids need a scorecard?  Or official tees?

Ben,

I would like to think that there is more than one definition of certified architect, and if one wants to be insulted without intent as you are implying, that is their perogative.

All I'm trying to type in here is that in the prcoess of seeing so many courses built over the years, where are some guidelines where needed, to include more folks into the game via other tees.

While clearly the disks at ECC are add ons after decades of play, if ideas for most anything on the course can be incorporated into the architecure from the outset, then it is more cost effective and better design.

Of course your view of society's ineptitude may preclude from seeing what I'm saying.

Again, by having a formal "family tee" and scorecard...more golf will be played and that is good for the game.

I think I've earned my opinion by playing golf since I was 8 and experiencing how my friends and family experience the game.

QED

have fun, thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

William,

The formalizing of junior or family markers, vis a vis plates, along with a junior or family scorecard can't hurt anyone.

Clubs have been doing this informally for decades and decades.

I played with my youngest son today.  He played from the blue markers.
He started at the 150 markers, moved back to the beginning of the fairways, then to the red tees, then the white tees and now the blue tees with an occasional play from the black tees.

Has he or his game suffered because he hasn't had a formal course to play ?
I don't think so and neither did my older kids, my brothers kids, me, my brother or my dad and his brothers.

[Ben Sims]

William,

I am not saying you were insulting anyone, but the statement itself could be insulting.  As far as I am aware, no such thing exists as a certified golf architect.  There is a vetting process to be a member of the ASGCA, but it in no way delineates a certification, nor does any other such professional organization.  The ASGCA or EIGCA is not analogous to the PGA in that respect.  I don't mean to threadjack, but this distinction bothers me.  I have a friend that could not compete for work on an Air Force Base because the RFP stipulated that the bid entrants be members of the ASGCA or EIGCA.  It is misguided and innocent statements such as your own that lead some dimwitted gov't official down the road of thinking that there is a such thing as certified golf architects.  This has been argued ad nauseum over the years, so I'll drop it.  PM me offline if you want to continue down that road.

As for the assertion that family tees cause more golf to be played, I have yet to see any evidence that it does that.  I feel it cheapens the game.  Those of you with children will point to my lack thereof as evidence that I am on the wrong side of this debate.  However, to quote Jeff Daniels in Newsroom, I think things like family tees contribute to the current grouping of 15-30 year olds as the "WORST.  Period. GENERATION.  Period.  EVER.  Period."

[William_G]

William,

The formalizing of junior or family markers, vis a vis plates, along with a junior or family scorecard can't hurt anyone.

Clubs have been doing this informally for decades and decades.

I played with my youngest son today.  He played from the blue markers.
He started at the 150 markers, moved back to the beginning of the fairways, then to the red tees, then the white tees and now the blue tees with an occasional play from the black tees.

Has he or his game suffered because he hasn't had a formal course to play ?
I don't think so and neither did my older kids, my brothers kids, me, my brother or my dad and his brothers.

FWIW, this is not about limiting the suffering or avoiding insults, this a just another way to "help".

All are not as blessed as you may be.

Having the "welcome" sign out with disks/scorecards is a good thing.

Looking forward to playing the gold disks with my son and his friends, we don't have 150s anymore..

Glad all is well with your family and their golf.

have fun, thanks

[Dan Herrmann]

For what it's worth, one of the reasons at our place for the family tee MARKERS is for fun tournaments for the kids.  This gives the tykes a chance to compare their improvement and play against others.  Some like the competition, some hate it - like most sports.

All I know is that we have more kids playing today than we did 5 years ago before the tees popped up.  They're unobtrusive and you probably wouldn't even know that they're there unless you were looking for them.  IIRC, our total cost was under $50...

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

We've been doing "Family Tee" at Kiawah for about five years:

http://www.kiawahresort.com/downloads/pdf/2012-summer-activityguide.pdf (See page 45)

Basically, after 5:30 during the summers on Cougar Point, Osprey Point, Oak Point and Turtle Point, kids under 18 play for free with adults (who pay $50) for 9 holes.  Tees are set up between 100 to 200 yards.  We have 15 min. between tee times.  It's been very, very popular...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

Golf enjoyed it's greatest growth at the local level without six (6) sets of tees.

Junior golf thrived and produced future golfers without six (6) sets of tees.

Generations of golfers enjoyed the game and the challenge the game presented without six (6) sets of tees.

Six sets of tees at local clubs is all about ego.

Why aren't three sets of tees sufficient ?

How do the limited number of tees work at PV, GCGC, NGLA, Seminole and other iconic clubs ?

I'm trying to recall the number of tees at Sand Hills, Friars Head, Sebonack and others.

Ditto for the courses at Bandon, which is a destination resort and different from member clubs.

How has a limited number of tees, 2 or 3, impaired junior golf over the last 60 years ?

[SB]

Shivas,

How do the limited number of tees work at PV, GCGC, NGLA, Seminole and other iconic clubs ?

I'm trying to recall the number of tees at Sand Hills, Friars Head, Sebonack and others.

So I guess these clubs have pretty strong junior programs?

[William_G]

No doubt minimalism is a good thing for golf.

These disks are not seen or known unless you walk right over them.

The scorecard is merely a treasure map for a "family tee".

No doubt my children have it better than I did, as my parents didn't golf but only encouraged me.

 

[Matt Day]

I've used this photo before but this is the cheap way to set up a kids course, we do it for our monthly kids free event. An hour on the range/putting green and then on the course, just use traffic cones for tee markers and let the kids play as many holes as they like. Most of the little tackers play 2 holes maximum.

When on course each group (12 maximum) has a pro with them to not only help with the golf swing, but also explain the rules and ettiquette. Parents are encouraged to walk with the group, because many don't play golf and and its a good way for them to learn the basics.

We are looking at the tee it forward concept and installing small 2.5mtr x 2.5mtr tees on one course set at around 4200 metres, tees would be set on the side of fairways. Costs yet to be determined

The other initiative is to provide SNAG golf as starting point, easy way to learn the basics for the little kids and a course can be set up anywhere.  www.snaggolf.com

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick - most clubs aren't iconic and I doubt you see much family play at Augusta or PV

[Sven Nilsen]

We're not talking about courses with 6 sets of tees.

We're talking about a plate in the ground that designates a playing environment appropriate for junior players.

Yes, you can always just go and pick a spot to drop a ball, whether at the 150 pole, the start of the fairway or where Dad's drive ends up.  But there's also value in designating such a place on each hole with a "family tee" marker.  Like Mr. Grieve, I don't need a critical examination of the societal impact of this move or the espousal of various theories of golf training to tell me this is the case.

I'm surprised Mr. Mucci didn't notice them while he was recently playing Sleepy Hollow.  Or the last time he played Whipporwill, Fishers Island, St. Andrews, Piping Rock, The Creek Club, Wykagl, Pelham, Brae Burn, Westchester, Plainfield, Baltusrol, Essex County or any of the other courses that have adopted this model as listed here (you can change the state using the pulldown menu):  

http://www.playgolfamerica.com/index.cfm?action=family_course&state=NY#

Search around a bit, I'd bet you're going to be surprised at the number of courses that are already using family tees.

My guess is that courses like Pine Valley, NGLA and Seminole do not have the same focus on junior/family golf as the clubs noted in the link.  There's nothing wrong with that, that's just the nature of those types of clubs.  There are places where they are appropriate, there are places where they won't work.  That doesn't mean that in the right spot they don't make sense.  And despite the best intentions of the Last Ten thread to prove otherwise, most of the world doesn't play their golf at iconic golf courses.

Instead of insinuating that golf has been just fine without these types of measures, perhaps you should be asking if golf would have been even better off if these types of programs had been instituted earlier.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

How do the limited number of tees work at PV, GCGC, NGLA, Seminole and other iconic clubs ?

I'm trying to recall the number of tees at Sand Hills, Friars Head, Sebonack and others.

So I guess these clubs have pretty strong junior programs?

GCGC has an incredibly strong junior program.

Many of the clubs are family oriented with PV probably being the exception, in addition, PV is far too vigorous a challenge for Junior golfers.

If I cited Preakness Hills and Montclair having very strong junior programs you probably never heard of them, hence the use of the iconic clubs.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick - most clubs aren't iconic and I doubt you see much family play at Augusta or PV

If I cited the non-iconic clubs with very strong junior programs, clubs like Preakness Hills and Montclair, most would never have heard of them, hence the use of iconic clubs.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat: you're too smart to make that "greatest growth" argument. The growth of EVERYTHING is greatest when it's new.  Mature businesses (golf included) simply don't grow as fast. You know that. So that argument is just one big fat red herring...

Shivas, it's a valid argument, junior programs aren't new.
Many have been around for 50+ years.

You've failed to establish any sort of causal connection.  
Golf's growth was also fastest when balls cost a day's wages, and shafts broke all the time....  

I don't remember that, when was it ? 

As to 6 sets of tees, I'm not arguing for it.  Maybe you didn't read my conclusion.  I'm all for just teeing off from the 100, 150, 200 and 250 markers...I see no further reason to litter up courses with more stupid markers.  Let's just use the stupid markers we already have.

I've advocated for the same thing.
Didn't you read my replies ?

All I'm saying is that 6 sets of tees isn't about ego. You 've said that a few times, but that  doesn't make it true. There are valid reasons for up tees - pace of play and appreciation for the beautiful balance and rhythm of the game are the two that hit home for me.

Not true.
Pace of play has deteriorated in the time that additional tees were introduced, so we know that additional tees don't reduce pace of play.

Did I and my generation miss the balance of rhythm of the game when we only had two or three sets of tees to play from ?
I think not.

Your arguments are "red herrings" 

The long game and the short game are connected in golf. When they're too disconnected, golf isn't as beautiful as it can be. And that's what happens when a player scrapes it 14 times up the fairway to get to the green.

If someone is scraping it 14 times before they reach the green, they don't belong on the golf course.
They belong on the practice tee, hitting balls and taking lessons.

[Sven Nilsen]

Patrick - most clubs aren't iconic and I doubt you see much family play at Augusta or PV

If I cited the non-iconic clubs with very strong junior programs, clubs like Preakness Hills and Montclair, most would never have heard of them, hence the use of iconic clubs.

Pat:

Is that the same Montclair that is listed here?

http://www.playgolfamerica.com/index.cfm?action=family_course&state=NJ

[William_G]

Sven, wow, thanks for the link...

had no idea

15 courses in OR have this program via the PGA of America and US Kids Golf

what role for architects?

thanks

[Brett_Morrissy]

Pat:
You have continued across this thread with what appears to me - the basis for your argument - that the game of golf had its strongest growth with two-three tees, correct?
You also counter many of the posts here with - so why should six tees work to grow the game, as we didn't need them during the greatest growth period of the game ( assume the 20th century) correct?
Not sure where the six tees part came from, my own comments were based on adding a family teeing ground - yes a teeing area with permanent tee plates and probably movable tee markers, that are installed in a small area of fairway at a suitable length. No maintenance required. Minimal cost. Score card. Rating. Course map.- my assumptions were correctly based on William's opening post photos, with the course map with tee indicators on the edges of fairways - I think that it is then reasonable to make the connection that we were talking about utilizing existing areas, and not building new tees - you seem to have added that in along with your unnecessary construction costs point.

Can you please detail for me, in what way 2-3 tees helped the participation of largest growth period of the game?

As I really had no idea that this indeed was the reason, as you have argued throughout this thread, for the huge growth in golf participation.

Sven, thanks for your info on real examples of this in practice.

[Garland Bayley]

Patrick,

I think it speeds up play on a course where you can bring you family along.

...

You've been teaching your family to play slowly?

[BDuryee]

Our course added the family "tees" or plates this year. For me the greatest asset of these tees is they allowed for a fun, formal, environment to have parent child tournaments.  The most recent was a modified alternate shot that  I played with my 7 year old daughter and 9 year old son each of whom played from a different plate and each had the biggest smile when we chose to use their ball. Also in the event were kids ranging from 5 to 13. While their was no prize for total score it was awesome to see the excitement as each kid shared the score they shot with their parent.

The discs are not intrusive, in fact the first time we played it took a while to locate a few of them.  I can think of no reason a family oriented club would not have these.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

The question (now at least) for me isn't why we need forward tees now as much as why every course needed back tees for the last 50 years?  They appeal to 1% of players or far less, if over 7200 yards.  Multiple tees allow every golfer at least a chance to play at reasonable length for their tee shots the way golf was meant to be played. 

I am an ASGCA member (no, not a certified architect as Ben points out) and have been among the biggest proponent of shortening courses.  They are, IMHO and as far as I can tell, called family tees because women's tees are deemed politically incorrect, and their is a belief that if we get women out as an activity with their kids, it might encourage more of them to play, or play again.  From memory, about as many women drop golf as try it for the first time each year.  It has loads of appeal, but is harder to keep them because they don't feel welcome, the courses are too hard, etc. 

Family tees is an attempt at rectifying this, but like others, I think there may be a natural limit to the number of females who feel they can afford the time golf plays.  Tee it Forward is also a part of this movement to make golf fun by allowing most holes to be attained in regulation figures at least, with many attainable with a range of irons.  See my post a few weeks ago about my recent experience in playing at 6200 yards rather than my customary 67-6800.  A blast and I wonder if more folks thought about fun rather than what tour pros shoot, design might be a lot different.

[Garland Bayley]

...

Entitled, self-important children are a plague, and if having a family tee marker so your children can keep a pretend official score is important for you as a parent choosing a golf club, you should probably reevaluate the priorities you're teaching them.

...

+1

[Garland Bayley]

Mark: you hit exactly the note I wanted to hit. Pat, it's not about egos. It's about developing balance in a kid's game. If they have to hit it 12 times to reach the green, then can putt pretty well, they think the game is predominantly a boring slog of hits. ...

Those that think it is a boring slog of hits are probably best playing video games and getting instant gratification.

[William_G]

Gar,

You are a great debatist and typist regardless of the side you pick.

Thanks

Have fun

[Garland Bayley]

...

Having the "welcome" sign out with disks/scorecards is a good thing.

...

yes, kids are dumb. They can't tell that asking them to play a lesser game is not welcoming.

Here guys. You can play from here, otherwise you are unwelcome.

Sounds good to me.

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