[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

If you'll reread the opening and guiding post, you'll see that tees and not  markers were the topic, that's why William asked the question about architects.

So when one mentions morons and blowhards, it would appear that the trail clearly leads to your name.

[Dan Herrmann]

Getting back to the original question - no - the architect didn't design these family tees into the design.  We have three family tees that are located on six holes that form a nice loop.  They're just a single, unobtrusive tee marker.    The USGA just held a qualifier at our club, and they didn't ask that the "family tee markers" be removed.

At our place, these are not special teeing grounds - just a place where kids can tee off so they can learn to love the game.  Their scores are irrelevant for USGA handicap purposes.  They use a normal scorecard.

I remember an old story that a golf pro told me.  He said that many beginners quit after only one or two lessons.  So he changed his teaching - he started on the green and the first shot a newbie hit was a 1' putt.  Most of the time, those putts were made, so the beginner achieved a goal right from the start.  From there, it was longer putts, chips, pitches, and then the full swing.  It's a idea borrowed from the "Mastery Learning" concept.

Golf is a very difficult game, and anything we can do to bring more people to love it is a good thing in my mind.

Fortunately, being a family-oriented course, we don't have "non-golfing members" on family memberships.  All are included, and we don't have tee times reserved for specific classes of golfers.  Only restriction we have is that non-certified juniors can't play on the weekends till 2pm - the certification is essentially ensuring the junior knows how to play fast and understands golf etiquette.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

If you'll reread the opening and guiding post, you'll see that tees and not  markers were the topic, that's why William asked the question about architects.

So when one mentions morons and blowhards, it would appear that the trail clearly leads to your name.

Pat:

The photos show markers.  When William was discussing "tees," he meant a teeing area designated by the markers, as found at Bandon and on many other courses.  Everyone else got this concept.  You were the only incompetent that needed to have it explained.

If you'd like to nominate me for the blowhard award as well, I'm confident that you'd win in a landslide once votes were cast.  Congrats.

Sven

[Jason Thurman]

That would be a fun poll.

But seriously, why do we need a specified spot for kids to tee their ball up in the fairway? I grew up dropping a ball wherever my father's drive was hit and playing out from there. It worked just fine.

Soon we'll have "chipping practice spot" markers around practice greens for anyone not creative enough to figure out where to drop when practicing.

[Sven Nilsen]

That would be a fun poll.

But seriously, why do we need a specified spot for kids to tee their ball up in the fairway? I grew up dropping a ball wherever my father's drive was hit and playing out from there. It worked just fine.

Soon we'll have "chipping practice spot" markers around practice greens for anyone not creative enough to figure out where to drop when practicing.

Without a designated spot, how do you come up with the rating? 

I'd imagine that a few of the family tee matches can get pretty competitive.  The markers remove all doubt as to where the hole begins.  I can't imagine the hockey parent blowup that would occur if Carlisle Regulus Winterbothom III's ("Trey's") parents found out little Percy Snodgrass Longshorts was teeing it up from ten yards shy of the 150 marker on the Long Hole.  There would certainly be stern mutterings of disapproval.

[Ben Sims]

That would be a fun poll.

But seriously, why do we need a specified spot for kids to tee their ball up in the fairway? I grew up dropping a ball wherever my father's drive was hit and playing out from there. It worked just fine.

Soon we'll have "chipping practice spot" markers around practice greens for anyone not creative enough to figure out where to drop when practicing.

Precisely.  I think it just reflects our collective mindset as a nation.  We want everything done for us.  This is the same as big government.  The USGA, PGA, ASGCA, GCSAA and all the other associations think they have all the answers through more programs.  I just don't understand why we always need more, more more.  Do clubs really need these markers to show their friendliness to young golf?  Really?

And William, please answer the question I wrote earlier.  What is a certified golf course architect?

[Tim Martin]

That would be a fun poll.

But seriously, why do we need a specified spot for kids to tee their ball up in the fairway? I grew up dropping a ball wherever my father's drive was hit and playing out from there. It worked just fine.

Soon we'll have "chipping practice spot" markers around practice greens for anyone not creative enough to figure out where to drop when practicing.

Precisely.  I think it just reflects our collective mindset as a nation.  We want everything done for us.  This is the same as big government.  The USGA, PGA, ASGCA, GCSAA and all the other associations think they have all the answers through more programs.  I just don't understand why we always need more, more more.  Do clubs really need these markers to show their friendliness to young golf?  Really?

And William, please answer the question I wrote earlier.  What is a certified golf course architect?

Family tees reflect our mindset as a nation? Really? How did I miss that?

[Ben Sims]

That would be a fun poll.

But seriously, why do we need a specified spot for kids to tee their ball up in the fairway? I grew up dropping a ball wherever my father's drive was hit and playing out from there. It worked just fine.

Soon we'll have "chipping practice spot" markers around practice greens for anyone not creative enough to figure out where to drop when practicing.

Precisely.  I think it just reflects our collective mindset as a nation.  We want everything done for us.  This is the same as big government.  The USGA, PGA, ASGCA, GCSAA and all the other associations think they have all the answers through more programs.  I just don't understand why we always need more, more more.  Do clubs really need these markers to show their friendliness to young golf?  Really?

And William, please answer the question I wrote earlier.  What is a certified golf course architect?

Family tees reflect our mindset as a nation? Really? How did I miss that?

I literally just told you.  Reread.  It's a crutch.  Why do we need them?  The extra time, money, etc. spent on doing this couldn't be used elsewhere?

[Tim Martin]

That would be a fun poll.

But seriously, why do we need a specified spot for kids to tee their ball up in the fairway? I grew up dropping a ball wherever my father's drive was hit and playing out from there. It worked just fine.

Soon we'll have "chipping practice spot" markers around practice greens for anyone not creative enough to figure out where to drop when practicing.

Precisely.  I think it just reflects our collective mindset as a nation.  We want everything done for us.  This is the same as big government.  The USGA, PGA, ASGCA, GCSAA and all the other associations think they have all the answers through more programs.  I just don't understand why we always need more, more more.  Do clubs really need these markers to show their friendliness to young golf?  Really?

And William, please answer the question I wrote earlier.  What is a certified golf course architect?

Family tees reflect our mindset as a nation? Really? How did I miss that?

I literally just told you.  Reread.  It's a crutch.  Why do we need them?  The extra time, money, etc. spent on doing this couldn't be used elsewhere?

It was a rhetorical question. If you think there is a lot of expense by sinking a couple of these plates in the ground much like a 150 marker then so be it. I will guarantee you that there is no associated maintenance cost that comes with it.  Again quite a leap to make this a referendum on society.

[Sven Nilsen]

Joking aside, I'd like to think that the location of the family tee markers are chosen with a bit of care.  I kind of think of it like an overlay, they don't factor into the original design, but when added there's some thought given to creating interest.  Whether its aligning the tee to bring key hazards into play, or creating angles by putting them on one side of a fairway or another, there are ways to make the "short course" have a downsized degree of architectural interest.

This really only works on certain types of courses, namely the family club.  I know Bandon added "fairway markers" to create a shorter course at some point, but I believe this was to accomodate the not-so-strong seasoned player.  

It also would not work on courses with extreme carries, target greens, etc.  You need the sward to make it feasible.

To address the comments from Ben and Jason, I wonder if either of you have children.  A lot of kids take the game of golf very seriously, perhaps more so than many of us on this site.  Giving them a set of "tees" means they are playing something "official."  And it makes the process of improving their game until they are ready for the next set back that much more of a challenge/goal.  I'd like to get the take on this from the guys in the room who have a golfer in training.  If I were a seven year old, it would make a big difference to be playing from a marker as opposed to wherever Dad said I should drop.

[Ben Sims]

That would be a fun poll.

But seriously, why do we need a specified spot for kids to tee their ball up in the fairway? I grew up dropping a ball wherever my father's drive was hit and playing out from there. It worked just fine.

Soon we'll have "chipping practice spot" markers around practice greens for anyone not creative enough to figure out where to drop when practicing.

Precisely.  I think it just reflects our collective mindset as a nation.  We want everything done for us.  This is the same as big government.  The USGA, PGA, ASGCA, GCSAA and all the other associations think they have all the answers through more programs.  I just don't understand why we always need more, more more.  Do clubs really need these markers to show their friendliness to young golf?  Really?

And William, please answer the question I wrote earlier.  What is a certified golf course architect?

Family tees reflect our mindset as a nation? Really? How did I miss that?

I literally just told you.  Reread.  It's a crutch.  Why do we need them?  The extra time, money, etc. spent on doing this couldn't be used elsewhere?

It was a rhetorical question. If you think there is a lot of expense by sinking a couple of these plates in the ground much like a 150 marker then so be it. I will guarantee you that there is no associated maintenance cost that comes with it.  Again quite a leap to make this a referendum on society.

I agree on the maintenance side.  What I disagree on is the functionality or value-added.  And I don't think yet another toothless program to tell people how they should be playing golf is too far from our current societal issues.

[Mark Johnson]

That would be a fun poll.

But seriously, why do we need a specified spot for kids to tee their ball up in the fairway?

For the same reason adults do.   To enable them to chart improvement by playing the same "course".   To enable youth competitions at a golf club as well.

I would also call out that the key to making these effective is to have a couple of them in order to enable a progression based on ability.

Am I the only one who is shocked there are two sides to this issue?   What's next, a debate on the appropriateness of water coolers near tee boxes?

[William_G]

Joking aside, I'd like to think that the location of the family tee markers are chosen with a bit of care.  I kind of think of it like an overlay, they don't factor into the original design, but when added there's some thought given to creating interest.  Whether its aligning the tee to bring key hazards into play, or creating angles by putting them on one side of a fairway or another, there are ways to make the "short course" have a downsized degree of architectural interest.

This really only works on certain types of courses, namely the family club.  I know Bandon added "fairway markers" to create a shorter course at some point, but I believe this was to accomodate the not-so-strong seasoned player.  

It also would not work on courses with extreme carries, target greens, etc.  You need the sward to make it feasible.

To address the comments from Ben and Jason, I wonder if either of you have children.  A lot of kids take the game of golf very seriously, perhaps more so than many of us on this site.  Giving them a set of "tees" means they are playing something "official."  And it makes the process of improving their game until they are ready for the next set back that much more of a challenge/goal.  I'd like to get the take on this from the guys in the room who have a golfer in training.  If I were a seven year old, it would make a big difference to be playing from a marker as opposed to wherever Dad said I should drop.

+1


Ben,

One definition of "certified golf course architect" is membership in the American Society of Golf Course Architects.

Not all clubs can enjoy a separate par-3 course such as that at Augusta, Olympic, Bandon, etc...

So it seems that when acreage and costs create a situation where other tees could help provide more flexibility for more golfers, the "architect" would have a plan for such.

This would help the game of golf, IMO.

Just look at the new "International" course in Aberdeen with all their tees for different conditions etc....

2 thumbs up to Hawtree in that regard.

Thanks

[William_G]

That would be a fun poll.

But seriously, why do we need a specified spot for kids to tee their ball up in the fairway?

For the same reason adults do.   To enable them to chart improvement by playing the same "course".   To enable youth competitions at a golf club as well.

I would also call out that the key to making these effective is to have a couple of them in order to enable a progression based on ability.

Am I the only one who is shocked there are two sides to this issue?   What's next, a debate on the appropriateness of water coolers near tee boxes?

Mark,

Some folks on this site are excellent typists and gold medal debatists...

They never see a fight they don't like from either side.

[Jason Thurman]

To address the comments from Ben and Jason, I wonder if either of you have children.  A lot of kids take the game of golf very seriously, perhaps more so than many of us on this site.  Giving them a set of "tees" means they are playing something "official."  And it makes the process of improving their game until they are ready for the next set back that much more of a challenge/goal.  I'd like to get the take on this from the guys in the room who have a golfer in training.  If I were a seven year old, it would make a big difference to be playing from a marker as opposed to wherever Dad said I should drop.

That's exactly why I don't have kids. I just don't have the acting ability to pretend like it's important for them to make a 9 from the "official" family tee marker instead of from the start of the fairway, the 150 marker, or any number of equally aribrary locations. Hell, Tiger Woods learned how to recover by dropping balls in the woods and trying to make 3.

Entitled, self-important children are a plague, and if having a family tee marker so your children can keep a pretend official score is important for you as a parent choosing a golf club, you should probably reevaluate the priorities you're teaching them.

Clubs and parents can do what they want, and it's not like this is some huge cost, but it is totally useless and that couple thousand dollars to install these would be far better spent providing free refreshments to walking juniors or something like that instead.

[Mark Johnson]

Clubs and parents can do what they want, and it's not like this is some huge cost, but it is totally useless and that couple thousand dollars to install these would be far better spent providing free refreshments to walking juniors or something like that instead.

Its not a cost; its an investment.  One with significant payoff to the club.

If you look at any established club and look at its yearly retention rate.   You will see rates significantly higher for those with active junior golfers compared to those without active golfers or those without kids.

I firmly believe that you can judge the long-term health of almost any club by the health of its junior golf program.  Anything to get juniors on the course and engaged is a positive.

[Sven Nilsen]

To address the comments from Ben and Jason, I wonder if either of you have children.  A lot of kids take the game of golf very seriously, perhaps more so than many of us on this site.  Giving them a set of "tees" means they are playing something "official."  And it makes the process of improving their game until they are ready for the next set back that much more of a challenge/goal.  I'd like to get the take on this from the guys in the room who have a golfer in training.  If I were a seven year old, it would make a big difference to be playing from a marker as opposed to wherever Dad said I should drop.

That's exactly why I don't have kids. I just don't have the acting ability to pretend like it's important for them to make a 9 from the "official" family tee marker instead of from the start of the fairway, the 150 marker, or any number of equally aribrary locations. Hell, Tiger Woods learned how to recover by dropping balls in the woods and trying to make 3.

Entitled, self-important children are a plague, and if having a family tee marker so your children can keep a pretend official score is important for you as a parent choosing a golf club, you should probably reevaluate the priorities you're teaching them.

Its not "pretend official" to them.  If you can't see that then it really is a good idea that you don't have kids.  There's no acting required if it means as much to you as it does to them.  As for priorities, I like mine where they are.

[Ben Sims]

Ben,

One definition of "certified golf course architect" is membership in the American Society of Golf Course Architects.

Not all clubs can enjoy a separate par-3 course such as that at Augusta, Olympic, Bandon, etc...

So it seems that when acreage and costs create a situation where other tees could help provide more flexibility for more golfers, the "architect" would have a plan for such.

This would help the game of golf, IMO.

Just look at the new "International" course in Aberdeen with all their tees for different conditions etc....

2 thumbs up to Hawtree in that regard.

Thanks

William,

The reason I asked is twofold.

1)  Writing about "certified" golf course architects implies that there is such a thing and insults those that have built great courses that aren't "certified" by your definition.  

2)  That brings me to the next point.  What is it about the family tee concept that needs an architect to approve it?  Are we that inept as humans that unless someone tells us that our kiddo can play from the fairway, then they can't?  

Lastly, what ever happened to kids paying their dues before they could do all the things older folks can?  I didn't get to fish for the deepwater fish with my dad on our vacations until I could handle it.  I didn't lose any passion because i was relegated to snagging baitfish.  I didn't decide flying was stupid because they didn't hand me a qualification day one.  Why do kids need a scorecard?  Or official tees?

By the way, Jason's post on #39 is genius.

[Jason Thurman]

I firmly believe that you can judge the long-term health of almost any club by the health of its junior golf program.  Anything to get juniors on the course and engaged is a positive.

Mark, I agree totally with your first sentence. As someone whose career is in occupational improvement science, I disagree with your second sentence and would change one word.

Anything THAT gets juniors on the course and engaged is a positive. Is there any evidence that these "tees" actually do that? I just can't imagine many six year olds that take up the game and stick with it because their course has a tee marker for them. In the end, junior participation comes down to parental encouragement and a junior-friendly club culture (which is a lot more than just a plaque buried in the ground).

These tees are cute, but I have a feeling if you looked at their actual effect, you'll find they're really just noise. I'd be very surprised if rates of junior play climb by a statistically significant amount on courses that install these markers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,

If you'll reread the opening and guiding post, you'll see that tees and not  markers were the topic, that's why William asked the question about architects.

So when one mentions morons and blowhards, it would appear that the trail clearly leads to your name.

Pat:

The photos show markers.  

No, the photos show plates, not tee markers

When William was discussing "tees," he meant a teeing area designated by the markers,

That's YOUR erroneous interpretation of what he "meant"
When someone references family "tees" and asks if architects include them in their designs, they're referencing tees, not markers.
Only a moron would think differently

as found at Bandon and on many other courses.  
Everyone else got this concept.  
You were the only incompetent that needed to have it explained.

I'm the only one with any degree of reading comprehension.
I know the difference between the words "tees" and "markers", evidently you and those you reference don't

If you'd like to nominate me for the blowhard award as well, I'm confident that you'd win in a landslide once votes were cast.  Congrats.
Based on your consistent record of being wrong, I'm sure you'll retire the trophy and it will subsequently bear your name.

[Jason Thurman]

Its not "pretend official" to them.

That inflated and unearned sense of self-worth is exactly the problem I'm referring to.

If you can't see that then it really is a good idea that you don't have kids.

Thank you.

There's no acting required if it means as much to you as it does to them.

And we've finally hit the truth. Family tee markers are like ice cream cone shaped dog treats: they're far more exciting for the parent/owner than for the child/dog. My dog loves chunks of turkey regardless of whether they're molded into a cute shape, and I suspect any child with a healthy disposition would be just as happy to play from just about any creatively chosen arbitrary spot in the fairway.

I suspect people who think we need set family tee markers also think Ballyneal needs to man up and start using six or seven sets of colored tees, because choosing a different teeing ground every day is just not meaningful or fun.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why hasn't anyone addressed/answered my statement/question accounting for how he game enjoyed record growth without tees for every level of golfer ?

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

The entertaining part of each and every one of your posts is seeing how you're going to twist logic and rational thought to keep the sinking ship that is your pathetic need to win any argument afloat.  You never cease to amaze.

Jason:

You're starting to rival our good friend Mr. Mucci in the way you can read a post and pick and chose an interpretation of an otherwise clearly presented message to support your ill-conceived hypothesis.  

Kids want to not only play golf, they want to feel like they're playing real golf.  They care about score, and they want it to be official.  A Sunday afternoon round on a par 3 or family course may be a chance to get a breath of fresh air and instill a few pointers about the game for the old man, but for the kids for whom golf is becoming a passion its a deadly serious pursuit.  They want to get better, they want to know they are getting better and they want to be able to measure that progress.  I know 7 year olds that can tell you what club they hit the last five times they played a hole.  

Small picture, we're talking about 18 small circles that won't bother anyone not using them, and which "create" a course for those that can't play with the big boys.  Big picture, it may be a small act, but its one step in the right direction.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

The entertaining part of each and every one of your posts is seeing how you're going to twist logic and rational thought to keep the sinking ship that is your pathetic need to win any argument afloat.  You never cease to amaze.

When participants can't answer specific questions or see their position decimated, they usually resort to the desperate diversionary tactic you've tried to employ.

YOU were the one who tried to tell us that we should ignore William's typed words, that he didn't "mean" "tees" when he typed "tees" that he really "meant" markers.

And you're accusing me of "twisting logic and rational thought" ?
What a joke.

Jason:

You're starting to rival our good friend Mr. Mucci in the way you can read a post and pick and chose an interpretation of an otherwise clearly presented message to support your ill-conceived hypothesis.  

Jason,

What's the matter with you ?  Don't you know that the word "tees" doesn't mean "tees", it means "markers"

Kids want to not only play golf, they want to feel like they're playing real golf.  

Sven, please tell us, what's the difference between "golf" and "real golf" ?

They care about score, and they want it to be official.

How do you know ?  Have you taken a survey ?
I suspect that kids care about contact, especially the long ball.

A Sunday afternoon round on a par 3 or family course may be a chance to get a breath of fresh air and instill a few pointers about the game for the old man, but for the kids for whom golf is becoming a passion its a deadly serious pursuit.  

If young kids, say 5 to 10, view scoring as a "deadly serious pursuit", then we're doing something very, very  wrong

They want to get better, they want to know they are getting better and they want to be able to measure that progress.  
That measurement doesn't require a new set of family tees.
The current sets of tees are more than adequate for that purpose, and they've been more than adequate for the last century.

I know 7 year olds that can tell you what club they hit the last five times they played a hole.  

Then they've become overly obsessive about the game.

Small picture, we're talking about 18 small circles that won't bother anyone not using them, and which "create" a course for those that can't play with the big boys.  Big picture, it may be a small act, but its one step in the right direction.  

Starting at the beginning of the fairway and working your way back to the various sets of tees has worked extremely well for the last century.
No need to reinvent the wheel just because you think that's the way to go.

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

In addition to untwisting your knickers, I'd suggest loosening your ascot.  Bill had it right in his first post.  You've been defending a misconception from the get go. 

As for your take on the value of the family tees or markers or whatever you want to call them (as long as you acknowledge we're not discussing anything maintained as a separate teeing area), I am happy to agree to disagree on this one.  Just like different folks have different parenting styles, you and I may not agree on the value of delineating a "family course."  To me, its a great option for the learning player, one that can be utilized to track progress and to instill a sense of what it will be like to play the official course.  I see no downsides, as your option of teeing it from wherever is always available.  As far as I can tell, there's no mandate that the family tees are used, its provided as an option.

As for what "real golf" means to a child, I think it exists in teeing it up, playing by the rules, seeing the first well struck iron shot get some air under it, figuring out how to get out of the sand and dreaming of draining a 30 footer on the 18th at the Masters. 

As an aside, the program has been around since 2007.  I'm curious to know what time from you were discussing when questioning the group about the growth of the game.  I'd also ask your question in the converse, who's to say the game wouldn't have grown more if these types of programs hadn't been around longer.

Sven

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