Dormie Club?

[hhuffines]

How does the new Bermuda Grass play during cooler months like Nov., Dec. and March?  I've only played them once at a Dixie Cup but was pleasantly surprised.  I was impressed with the new greens at Sedgefield from limited viewing today.   

[Bryan Icenhower]

I played the course on August 4th, and while I loved the course, and would play it again, the weather had hit them pretty hard.  They had 5 greens that  were stressed.  This one was the best of the bunch, my battery died before I could take pictures of the other greens.  As we left this green my caddie mentioned how that green wasn't that bad, the next was 90% gone, which if it wasn't 90% it was close.

[Matt MacIver]

In post #17 Hart mentions that his club in Raleigh closed for a week of rest due to the weather. 

Anyone have any other reports of course closings in NC due to the summer weather.

Mark - the bent greens at my Charlotte course have had a really tough July and August -- too wet and they can't sub-air them fast enough, so our root growth shrunk from 5" to nearly nothing.  Over the past three weeks we've done everything from limiting weekday tee times to spacing out weekend starts to 20 minute intervals, along with a few days completely closed.  And we're not the only ones in CLT that have had to do this. 

[A.G._Crockett]

I played the couse on August 4th, and while I loved the course, and would play it again, the weather had hit them pretty hard.  They had 5 greens that  were stressed.  This one was the best of the bunch, my battery died before I could take pictures of the other greens.  As we left this green my caddie mentioned how that green wasn't that bad, the next was 90% gone, which if it wasn't 90% it was close.

Matt,
Thanks for posting this, and I stand corrected.  That is an amazing level of decline from when I was there in late June.
A.G.

[Jon Wiggett]

Could someone explain to me at the Dormie Club if their greens are suffering from heat stress why have they hollow-tined and sanded. Surely this will just increase the stress levels. I appreciate with bent it will make the greens a lot slower but would it not have been wiser to raise the HOC to 7mm or even 8mm to save the turf?

Jon

[John Shimp]

AG
Matt Macivers experience is similar to my clubs in charlotte. The other thing is that many of the ones that remain fully open shouldnt be. The greens are running 6, are dying, and are like playing on mush. A disaster really.  Syringing, fans, etc and the greens are horrid.

I agree with you that its ultradwarf here we come.  I am a big fan of them.

[hhuffines]

Is there anyone willing to comment on the colder month playing conditions of the new Bermuda greens?  I think they are fantastic for summers in the South but I play as much if not more in late fall and winter.   Surely there are issues - shading/sun, dormancy, winter kill and transition?   

[John Shimp]

I think they are excellent in the fall and spring.  Very good in winter.  Some paint them.  Palmetto began using poa trivialis to green them up in winter. They are great. Can get very firm and must tarp in below freezing.

[Ben Sims]

Is there anyone willing to comment on the colder month playing conditions of the new Bermuda greens?  I think they are fantastic for summers in the South but I play as much if not more in late fall and winter.   Surely there are issues - shading/sun, dormancy, winter kill and transition?   

There are issues in all cases.  Winter kill being the most serious in the Charlotte/Sandhills region I would think.  But in all honesty, the issues I've seen with ultradwarf in the winter are dwarfed (pun intended) by the issues the bent faces in the summer between May-September.  The problem isn't the day time temps, it's the night time temps.  If you're experiencing 75-80 degree temps at night for an appreciable amount of time, maybe it's time to look into ultradwarf.  I have been very impressed by the painted ultradwarf I've played on in winter. 

Dormancy is only an issue if the greens get beat up.  I don't think you would want 50+ rounds a day on dormant grass.

[Greg Holland]

In NC, they go dormant, most clubs paint them green, and you can have foot traffic issues.  You also have the cold issue mentioned and have to cover them with tarps at night. 

[JMEvensky]

But in all honesty, the issues I've seen with ultradwarf in the winter are dwarfed (pun intended) by the issues the bent faces in the summer between May-September. 

In a nutshell,this is where the discussion needs to be. For clubs with a lot of shoulder season play,bent might make more sense.But,if the lion's share of golf is played during the summer,the arguments in favor of bent have gotten almost impossible to make.

[John Kavanaugh]

These questions would be far easier to answer if the course was maintained for it's members instead of the hit and run critics who expect perfect conditions on any given day they can squeeze in a round. People who play and post pics or complain about slow greens are the problem, not the weather or the seed.

[Jon Wiggett]

Could someone explain to me at the Dormie Club if their greens are suffering from heat stress why have they hollow-tined and sanded. Surely this will just increase the stress levels. I appreciate with bent it will make the greens a lot slower but would it not have been wiser to raise the HOC to 7mm or even 8mm to save the turf?

Jon

Wow, no takers Had hoped someone might be able to enlighten me as to what the reasons were.

Jon

[John Foley]

How do the other Sandhills region course deal with this?

What are the greens at Pinehurst / Pine Needles / Forrest Creek etc... and how do they hold up compared with what the Dormie club has?

I would think that Dormie's issues are not unique just major now due this summers conditions?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Could someone explain to me at the Dormie Club if their greens are suffering from heat stress why have they hollow-tined and sanded. Surely this will just increase the stress levels. I appreciate with bent it will make the greens a lot slower but would it not have been wiser to raise the HOC to 7mm or even 8mm to save the turf?

Jon

Wow, no takers Had hoped someone might be able to enlighten me as to what the reasons were.

Jon

Total guess-but the aerification holes and sand may be the new seed bed. When I was at Colonial, we small tine aerified every 3-4 weeks in the summer, but the greens never got like this. The aerification removes the old, dead, decaying material and allows for the little bit of existing turf to breath and put out roots.

[hhuffines]

Thanks for the thoughtful answers!  I'm certain there are plenty of us who know little about theses special grasses so its good to hear about experiences.  I'm in Raleigh and we seem to be right in the problem area for most grasses at some point during the year.  I can't comment on the work done at Dormie but I do know Pinehurst #2, Pine Needles, and others are aerifying this week.   September weather can't get here fast enough!

[Jon Wiggett]

Anthony,

thanks for the answer. I asked as if grass is under heat stress then the very last thing I would do is stress it even more through aerification and sanding which will only dry out the root-zone even more as well as increase the temperature. I am sure there will be some good reason and just wanted to know what.

As you said it could be for a new seed/grass type.

Jon

[Tom Fagerli]

How do the other Sandhills region course deal with this?

What are the greens at Pinehurst / Pine Needles / Forrest Creek etc... and how do they hold up compared with what the Dormie club has?

I would think that Dormie's issues are not unique just major now due this summers conditions?

I have played Pinehurst 5 and 8 last three days. No 4 tomorrow, back willing. Greens on 8 OK. Greens on 5 are so/so which is worse than OK in my rating system- they are soft and beat up. I am told No 4 greens are no good at all. Per guy at 8, next May it goes Champion bermuda.
Pine Needles has stayed good all summer. Aerifying this week so cmon mid Sept. Then they will be perfect for months.
I must say that MidPines greens were the best I have seen them back in July.

[A.G._Crockett]

Could someone explain to me at the Dormie Club if their greens are suffering from heat stress why have they hollow-tined and sanded. Surely this will just increase the stress levels. I appreciate with bent it will make the greens a lot slower but would it not have been wiser to raise the HOC to 7mm or even 8mm to save the turf?

Jon

Jon,
I don't know the answer to this, but UNC-Finley just did the same thing last week.  I can't recall seeing that before in July or August, but I would say in general that bent grass maintenance practices in the South now don't even resemble what we were used to seeing for many, many years.  Much more frequent aeration and sanding, though small-tined is what I'm used to seeing at my club in GA.

[A.G._Crockett]

How do the other Sandhills region course deal with this?

What are the greens at Pinehurst / Pine Needles / Forrest Creek etc... and how do they hold up compared with what the Dormie club has?

I would think that Dormie's issues are not unique just major now due this summers conditions?

I played at Tobacco Road this morning, and with the exception of a few edges, didn't see anything out of the ordinary for late August.  The greens were actually much, much better than I expected and didn't appear to have been aerated any time very recently.  Can't explain the difference between there and the Dormie Club unless it is simply that the greens at TR are more established; the two courses are only 20 miles apart.

[Cory Lewis]

Apparently #3 is very close to losing it's greens.  I talked to 2 members of Pinehurst that I work with today and they both said parts of the greens on #3 are basically dirt at this point, which is prety strange because it was in great shape for the kids a few weeks ago. 

We punched at Little River on Monday, before that our bent greens were in pretty good shape!

[jim_lewis]

The bent greens at Forest Creek have been remarkably good all summer long. They have been a little soft lately because we have had lots of rain, and they are not as quick as they will be in the fall, because they are mowed a little higher on really hot days.

It takes a lot of care (and resources), but our biggest advantage is that we get very little play in the summer and the play is spread over two courses. Plus, the group I play with doesn't hit many greens! The North Course greens were punched last week and the South will be punched next week.  I played North on Monday and they had already healed pretty much.

Jim Lewis

[A.G._Crockett]

These questions would be far easier to answer if the course was maintained for it's members instead of the hit and run critics who expect perfect conditions on any given day they can squeeze in a round. People who play and post pics or complain about slow greens are the problem, not the weather or the seed.

John,
With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about. 

[John Kavanaugh]

AG,

I think it is clear that Dormie was living on the edge and fell off. If they had a full happy private membership the greens would be alive today.

[hhuffines]

I agree with AG...