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Patrick_Mucci

A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« on: August 16, 2012, 08:47:26 PM »
describe Sleepy Hollow.

I absolutely love the golf course.

I love the recent work, the tree clearing is phenomenal as is the bunkering and green complexes.
The only question I had is, why didn't they leave the 12th green intact as an alternate play ?

The 5th hole has to be one of the absolutely greatest blind tee shots followed by an incredible skyline green.

George B, I told you that removing those pines would exponentially improve the hole.

I also love the dual shared fairways on a number of holes.

It's quite a unique golf course that's a blast to play.

But, it sure is a hard walk.
Usually the tell is the use of gas versus electric carts.

What a spectacular golf course and club house.

And, it has a good range along with a par 3/short course.

I just wish it had better views.

What other courses are terrific, but difficult to walk ?
I'd list Bayonne as one.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 08:56:11 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Phil McDade

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 09:09:17 PM »
Patrick:

How would you compare the walk at Augusta National to Sleepy Hollow? ANGC is generally regarded as a vigorous walk.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 09:19:59 PM »
ANGC is a tough walk. Mayacama is not ANGC by any stretch of the imagination but a good course and tough walk.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 09:20:25 PM »
Heck for me Cal Club is too. lol

Bart Bradley

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2012, 09:31:23 PM »
Patrick:

How good does a course have to be to be called "great"?

How hard does the walk have to be to be "difficult"?

I once asked a very, very experienced golf traveler and gca enthusiast:  "what is the highest you rate a course that you didn't walk?"  His answer was Dallas National.  He did not rate it in the World Top 100.

I have not played Sleepy Hollow but I have played Bayonne.

I would call the walk at Bayonne, medium to difficult ( 6.5 - 7 on the difficult walk scale...it is certainly not easy but far from impossible).  I also wouldn't call the course great.  The front nine is quite cramped.  It is an engineering marvel, a design success but not great.

I would argue that no course that is truly a "difficult walk" is truly great.  "Great" is a very strong word.  I have used that word cavalierly in the past among the GCA cognescenti and learned from experience that what is good or very good, probably cannot be called "great". 

What is the best course you have played that you did not walk? 

The best course I have played, but not walked is Diamond Creek.  I suspect I could walk it, but it wouldn't be an easy walk. 

Bart

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 11:38:00 PM »
Patrick:

How good does a course have to be to be called "great"?

Better than very good


How hard does the walk have to be to be "difficult"?

Hard = Difficult


I once asked a very, very experienced golf traveler and gca enthusiast:  "what is the highest you rate a course that you didn't walk?"  His answer was Dallas National.  He did not rate it in the World Top 100.

I have not played Sleepy Hollow but I have played Bayonne.

I would call the walk at Bayonne, medium to difficult ( 6.5 - 7 on the difficult walk scale...it is certainly not easy but far from impossible).
I never said it was impossible.
I don't know of any course that's impossible to walk, do you ?
Please cite them.


I also wouldn't call the course great. 

I never called it great


The front nine is quite cramped. 

What holes are cramped ?
It's not like it's a big parcel of land


It is an engineering marvel, a design success but not great.

I never said it was "great"


I would argue that no course that is truly a "difficult walk" is truly great.  "Great" is a very strong word.  I have used that word cavalierly in the past among the GCA cognescenti and learned from experience that what is good or very good, probably cannot be called "great". 
Tiger labeled ANGC as a difficult walk.  Is ANGC not great ?


What is the best course you have played that you did not walk? 

Shinnecock, NGLA, Friars Head, Sebonack, Sleepy Hollow, ANGC to name a few

If you mean courses I wouldn't walk, Sherwood, Hamilton Farms, The Bridge, Trump Bedminster (new)
and a host of residential community courses that weave amongst the homes.


The best course I have played, but not walked is Diamond Creek.  I suspect I could walk it, but it wouldn't be an easy walk. 

Andy Troeger

Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 12:08:06 AM »
Bart,
The "didn't walk" thing is a little dangerous, especially if you only get to see a course once. In looking at my list, I have walked my top six and a good portion of those afterward, but I rode at 10 of my top 25 for various reasons. I believe I could have enjoyed walking any of them, however. Gozzer Ranch and Black Mesa would be the toughest walks, but I think I could do it. Ironically, I walked Dallas National and didn't find it that taxing.

Pat's example of Sleepy Hollow is an interesting one. Its a hilly property, but on the day I played I bet 75% of the play was from walkers. We would have walked had it not been round #12 in nine days, and ten of those were walked. The cart was a blessing at that point! I'd guess Sleepy Hollow is a vigorous walk, but I wouldn't argue that's a bad thing.  Pikewood National is a tough walk too, but there are no carts so you'd better deal with it if you want to play the course. Our host walked it with an injured leg--gave him extra credit for that certainly.

All of those courses are different from the ones where walking is fundamentally challenged by either the time it would take to do so or the physical exertion necessary to do so. If Pat's looking for courses that are "impossible" to walk I'd argue there aren't many. Black Rock and The Alotian are described as unwalkable, but someone in shape could theoretically do so. Heck, I played a course in Colorado called Ironbridge that had 4 holes going up and down a mountain plus mile-long walks between holes in at least 4 places and they still had people walk it occasionally. Those are the people you see biking up mountains in Colorado...good on them! Sanctuary is probably unwalkable for most of us. Whether any of those courses are great in the first place is up for debate too...although I admit they were all fun to play.


Joe_Tucholski

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2012, 12:24:17 AM »
I never said it was impossible.
I don't know of any course that's impossible to walk, do you ?
Please cite them.


Two I can think of where it is not possible to walk the entire course:
Legends Golf Course in South Africa has a par 3 where they claim the tee is only accessible by helicopter (technically the hole is a "19th" hole).

The Coeur d'Alene Resort Golf Course would be impossible to walk tee to green on #14.

Chris Clouser

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 08:47:45 AM »
Joe,

I could only think of One that could do that on 14.  And it isn't Tim Tebow...  ;D

Tom Ferrell

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 10:04:00 AM »
Castle Pines GC is a pretty stout walk.  For that matter, so is the Prairie Club Dunes course.  Bandon Trails will get your attention as well.

PM - you played a non-walking round at Friar's Head?  What's the cart ride like from 15 green to 16 tee?!?!?!?!

David Stewart

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 10:32:39 AM »
For a course that is only 6500 yards or so, Crystal Downs is a pretty tough walk, especially once you get to the back 9. Down to 10 fairway, up to 11 green, getting to 12 tee, up to the fairway on 17 are difficult.

Jud_T

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 10:37:47 AM »
Kingsley's not the easiest walk, and some would say it's pretty solid, although I'm withholding judgement until the new Confidential Guide comes out...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 10:44:59 AM »
Castle Pines GC is a pretty stout walk.  For that matter, so is the Prairie Club Dunes course.  Bandon Trails will get your attention as well.

PM - you played a non-walking round at Friar's Head?  What's the cart ride like from 15 green to 16 tee?!?!?!?!

Not as exhilarating as the walk on the boardwalk, which is fabulous.

It's the same as it was on opening day.
Back down the 15th fairway and around the south side of the dune to the 16th tee..


Charlie_Bell

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2012, 11:15:21 AM »
As Sleepy Hollow is one of the few first-rate courses I've had the privilege of playing, how I wish your thread title had been "A difficult walk, but a great course." 

I would love to hear more about the strengths of Sleepy Hollow and less about the physical challenges of other courses.  Ah, well, just another one of life's regrets...

Carl Rogers

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2012, 11:25:03 AM »
Ballyhack ... my one round there (thank you Lester) w/ my friend Scott W on this site, was interrupted by a big shower at the 14th hole. It cleared up and we resumed play on the 15th hole, but course management asked us to walk and carry which we did.  That was a hard walk from 15 through 18 but well worth it.  

The front nine is much much harder than that.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 11:27:14 AM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2012, 11:25:58 AM »
As Sleepy Hollow is one of the few first-rate courses I've had the privilege of playing, how I wish your thread title had been "A difficult walk, but a great course." 

I would love to hear more about the strengths of Sleepy Hollow and less about the physical challenges of other courses.  Ah, well, just another one of life's regrets...

Charlie,

Having played SH pre and post restoration, I have to say that the changes, in conjunction with the tree removal project are stunning.

The tree removal allows for cross fairway views of other holes and features, and the influence of the WIND.

I like the use of dual or shared fairways and shared bunkers.

The use of the templates is quite interesting, with the punchbowl 15th one of the most interesting I've ever seen.

Gotta run, be back later

Mark McKeever

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2012, 12:14:35 PM »
Patrick:

How good does a course have to be to be called "great"?

Better than very good


How hard does the walk have to be to be "difficult"?

Hard = Difficult


I once asked a very, very experienced golf traveler and gca enthusiast:  "what is the highest you rate a course that you didn't walk?"  His answer was Dallas National.  He did not rate it in the World Top 100.

I have not played Sleepy Hollow but I have played Bayonne.

I would call the walk at Bayonne, medium to difficult ( 6.5 - 7 on the difficult walk scale...it is certainly not easy but far from impossible).
I never said it was impossible.
I don't know of any course that's impossible to walk, do you ?
Please cite them.


I also wouldn't call the course great. 

I never called it great


The front nine is quite cramped. 

What holes are cramped ?
It's not like it's a big parcel of land


It is an engineering marvel, a design success but not great.

I never said it was "great"


I would argue that no course that is truly a "difficult walk" is truly great.  "Great" is a very strong word.  I have used that word cavalierly in the past among the GCA cognescenti and learned from experience that what is good or very good, probably cannot be called "great". 
Tiger labeled ANGC as a difficult walk.  Is ANGC not great ?


What is the best course you have played that you did not walk? 

Shinnecock, NGLA, Friars Head, Sebonack, Sleepy Hollow, ANGC to name a few

If you mean courses I wouldn't walk, Sherwood, Hamilton Farms, The Bridge, Trump Bedminster (new)
and a host of residential community courses that weave amongst the homes.


The best course I have played, but not walked is Diamond Creek.  I suspect I could walk it, but it wouldn't be an easy walk. 




Pat, Im confused.  You called the course great IN THE TITLE of the thread.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2012, 12:44:25 PM »
Mark,

If you'll REREAD the opening post you'll see that I called Bayonne "terrific", not great.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2012, 01:12:30 PM »
As Sleepy Hollow is one of the few first-rate courses I've had the privilege of playing, how I wish your thread title had been "A difficult walk, but a great course."  

I would love to hear more about the strengths of Sleepy Hollow and less about the physical challenges of other courses.  Ah, well, just another one of life's regrets...

Charlie:

Here's my thought on the walk:  the vistas are the payoff.

I think the routing at Sleepy Hollow is superb and in some ways reminds me of Bandon Trails (or does Bandon Trails remind me of Sleepy Hollow?).

You start with the get away holes, in this case a downhill 4, an uphill 4 and a 3 across a gorge.  The climb up the second lets you know you're in for something special, especially if you take a peak over your shoulder and catch a bit of the expanse of river behind you.  When you climb up the hill from the 3rd green into the central playing field, you almost feel like you've ascended into a high alpine meadow.  You get to play four holes here (4, 5, 6 and 7) and get a peak at some of the joys to come (13, 14 and 15).  The exploration continues, as you then play a small loop away from the halfway (thirdway?) shack, only to return after 12.  After the alpine meadow, the stroll through the high forest of the loop (replete with a pond that must have been filled by glacial runoff) provides the "escape" feeling, the sense of having left the world behind.

Having had a preview of almost all of the closing stretch (with the exception of the wonder of standing on the 16th tee and green), you pretty much know what's in store as you return to the heart of the course.  There are a ton of fun shots to look forward to coming home, including the punchbowl green approach, the short and the downhill drive on 17.  To close things out, you're left with the task of besting the 18th, a wonderful uphill closing hole that places demands on every shot.

When you look back on the round, you're left with memories of the principal's nose, balls careening off the bank at the reverse redan, tee shots searching for the proper side of a fairway or climbing the last few yards of a hill to be breached and approaches skirting that last hurdle before trundling onto a green.  There are great bunkers, but the course is far from being a sandbox.  There's movement in the greens.  There's elevation and there are relatively flat holes.  There's something to examine and learn on every hole, if not every shot.  Its a great course, and while the walk may be demanding in places (and downright fun in others), the payoffs are worth every ounce of energy expended on the journey.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 01:19:33 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2012, 01:29:15 PM »
Maybe Pasatiempo in spots leaves one huffing and puffing for a minutes.

Chris Shaida

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2012, 02:07:12 PM »
Aren't there (at least) two distinct kinds of 'difficulty'.  One is the purely physical difficulty (hills mostly) that could probably be quantified  pretty precisely using the method hiking guides use that combines length, elevation change, steepness and footing (or something like that).

Then there is the difficulty (mental? spiritual? conceptual?) where one feels that one has to spend walking energy on non-golf terrain or in a non-golf way.  This often happens on course designed to be played mainly with carts where one can't just march off the front of the tee box and get to one's ball.  I think there was a thread a while back specifically about the Dormie Club in this regard.

In my opinion, Sleepy has a pretty 'physically difficult' score but offers virtually none of the second kind of difficulty -- the whole walk is a 'golf walk' and is fantastic.

Mark McKeever

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2012, 02:29:09 PM »
Mark,

If you'll REREAD the opening post you'll see that I called Bayonne "terrific", not great.

You called Sleepy Hollow great though correct?

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Sven Nilsen

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2012, 03:00:44 PM »
Aren't there (at least) two distinct kinds of 'difficulty'.  One is the purely physical difficulty (hills mostly) that could probably be quantified  pretty precisely using the method hiking guides use that combines length, elevation change, steepness and footing (or something like that).

Then there is the difficulty (mental? spiritual? conceptual?) where one feels that one has to spend walking energy on non-golf terrain or in a non-golf way.  This often happens on course designed to be played mainly with carts where one can't just march off the front of the tee box and get to one's ball.  I think there was a thread a while back specifically about the Dormie Club in this regard.

In my opinion, Sleepy has a pretty 'physically difficult' score but offers virtually none of the second kind of difficulty -- the whole walk is a 'golf walk' and is fantastic.

Chris:

Great point.  This is a course that was designed to be walked, and it shows.  There are no ridiculous green to tee traverses, and the entire course flows (the old walk from 12 to 13 had a bit of a hike feel, but the changes have alleviated that issue).

Even though the course has uphill stretches (2nd fairway, 4th, 5th, 12th and 18th), I kind of think the difficulty gets blown out of proportion a bit due to the marginal severity of a few of the ascents.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Charlie_Bell

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2012, 08:04:25 PM »
Sven,  Thank you for your thoughtful, almost lyrical, evocation of the joy of playing a round at Sleepy Hollow.  You captured the distinctive character of the course, drawing a player from one mini-realm to another, and another... It was a magical day of golf for me, nearly a decade ago, and you brought back the memories even more vividly than the wonderful photos and descriptions of the course on this site.

Dan Byrnes

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Re: A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2012, 10:14:04 PM »
I only played the course once.  I don't recall the walk being anything overly difficult.  Certainly has some decent elevation changes but as others have pointed out the views you get from the elevation changes are worth it.

Now I don't  consider myself to be any where as knowledgeable as many here, but I thought there were holes that were spectacular while other holes were ok at best.   Probabally better than ok but a more than noticeable difference from the spectacular holes.

I am not sure when I played exactly so it's possible the renovations were made after my visit but it seemed some holes didn't belong.

I really liked the place and my main criteria for judging a place is "if I lived nearby would I want to join this place". Hands down yes.  I also played Hudson National on the same visit and while very, very nice I much preferred Sleepy Hollow.

Also as we have had some threads about logos. Sleepy Hollow has a great one. 

I also have to give Sleepy Hollow a major compliment as they graciously allowed me to play and bring a guest with after a phone call request from my home clubs (which isn't anything special) Pro.

Dan

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