A great course, but a difficult walk, that's how I'd

[George_Bahto]

Patrick, thank you for the kind words about Sleepy Hollow. When I saw the title of this thread, I guess I skipped over it, until Corey pointed it out to me today

You know, it’s a little funny about all the raves about the routing of the course, such a crazy “blend” of three different architects, that near accidently, ended up so interesting.

Macdonald, not happy with Rockefeller’s interference, Tillie’s less than inspiring addition, and perhaps the best work done by a local (a good one by the way), Tom Winton.

Very few “template-holes” are on the Sleepy course ........  But the macdonald Raynor feel, we feel, is there. It was fun.

Sven: what a wonderful description of the course - I had to pinch myself .......  It that what we did? Thank you very much.

The “tree-battle” started slowly but once they saw the” open vistas re-emerge, it became easier .......... then we “un-blocked” the great outcroppings.

Of course the great quote by one of the members was: “Gee, when did they put the Hudson River back in”

Hole 10: very difficult. There is stone behind the green and we are hemmed in by the pond(s) but we have plans we hope will be thought about once their Centennial is over.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

# 10 just lacks the feel, the look of the other holes.

Not that it isn't a good hole, but it just seems to lack the architectural continuity you find on the rest of the course.

By the way, on a non-architectural note, I love the train station like stop/go pole for # 15, next to the 16th tee

[Tommy Williamsen]

Patrick:

How good does a course have to be to be called "great"?

How hard does the walk have to be to be "difficult"?

I once asked a very, very experienced golf traveler and gca enthusiast:  "what is the highest you rate a course that you didn't walk?"  His answer was Dallas National.  He did not rate it in the World Top 100.

I have not played Sleepy Hollow but I have played Bayonne.

I would call the walk at Bayonne, medium to difficult ( 6.5 - 7 on the difficult walk scale...it is certainly not easy but far from impossible).  I also wouldn't call the course great.  The front nine is quite cramped.  It is an engineering marvel, a design success but not great.

I would argue that no course that is truly a "difficult walk" is truly great.  "Great" is a very strong word.  I have used that word cavalierly in the past among the GCA cognescenti and learned from experience that what is good or very good, probably cannot be called "great". 

What is the best course you have played that you did not walk? 

The best course I have played, but not walked is Diamond Creek.  I suspect I could walk it, but it wouldn't be an easy walk. 

Bart

Bart I have walked both Bayonne (with caddie) and Diamond Creek when the caddie drove the cart and I walked.  I found them to be vigorous in places but very walkable.  I also walk Ballyhack once in a while, so what do I know?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy, et. al.,

I don't think you and many others have a comprehensive grasp on "walkability"

When a golfer is fit, with no health issues, every course is walkable.

When a golfer has health and/or physical issues, "walkable" takes on an entirely different meaning.

To those with health/physical issues, a course like Southampton or Westhampton is walkable, The Bridge, Hamilton Farms, Bayonne and other similar courses aren't walkable.

Sleepy Hollow is a difficult walk

[Sven Nilsen]

Pat:

I would agree that the rest of us may not have a comprehensive understanding of Pat Mucci's personal definition of the term "walkability."  We do now.  I hope you can understand that other people may have a different interpretation of the term and that all of us can appreciate that a course may not be walkable for someone that has a hard time walking.

Interesting to note that the Walking Golfer gives Sleepy Hollow a green rating, which equates to a course that is easy to walk:

http://www.thewalkinggolfer.com/walkability_ratings_ny.html

When it comes down to it, if someone asked me whether a course was walkable, I'd take into account how walkable the course is for that person.  If Rob Rigg asked me if Flossmoor (to use an example) was walkable, I'd say without a doubt yes.  If my Grandmother asked me if Flossmoor was walkable, I'd say it would be difficult in places.


Sven

[Tim Martin]

Pat:

I would agree that the rest of us may not have a comprehensive understanding of Pat Mucci's personal definition of the term "walkability."  We do now.  I hope you can understand that other people may have a different interpretation of the term and that all of us can appreciate that a course may not be walkable for someone that has a hard time walking.

Interesting to note that the Walking Golfer gives Sleepy Hollow a green rating, which equates to a course that is easy to walk:

http://www.thewalkinggolfer.com/walkability_ratings_ny.html

When it comes down to it, if someone asked me whether a course was walkable, I'd take into account how walkable the course is for that person.  If Rob Rigg asked me if Flossmoor (to use an example) was walkable, I'd say without a doubt yes.  If my Grandmother asked me if Flossmoor was walkable, I'd say it would be difficult in places.


Sven

Sven-I am in agreement with your above response. Wouldn`t any sensible definition of "walkable" assume a person is fit? Are there any reviews that say "It`s a good walk unless you have emphysema and are covered in poison ivy". There is no end to the number of caveats that could be applied to a specific person`s heath that would make any golf course a difficult walk. It seems that just about every person that has responded feels that Sleepy Hollow is a great course and a reasonable walk.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

I would agree that the rest of us may not have a comprehensive understanding of Pat Mucci's personal definition of the term "walkability."  We do now.  I hope you can understand that other people may have a different interpretation of the term and that all of us can appreciate that a course may not be walkable for someone that has a hard time walking.

It's not my definition, it's a common sense definition.
You want to apply and confine the term to a narrow spectrum of those who play golf, whereas, I'm applying the term to the broad spectrum of those who play golf.

Interesting to note that the Walking Golfer gives Sleepy Hollow a green rating, which equates to a course that is easy to walk:

You'd have to be a moron to state that Sleepy Hollow is an easy walk, and you'd have to be a moron to cite that evaluation in the face of the physical terrain and the actual experience encountered in the play of the golf course.


http://www.thewalkinggolfer.com/walkability_ratings_ny.html

One of the differences between you and me is that I rely on my personal experiences, whereas you choose to rely on hearsay from third parties absent personal substantiation. 

When it comes down to it, if someone asked me whether a course was walkable, I'd take into account how walkable the course is for that person.  If Rob Rigg asked me if Flossmoor (to use an example) was walkable, I'd say without a doubt yes.  If my Grandmother asked me if Flossmoor was walkable, I'd say it would be difficult in places.

What about all those in between, why exclude them from the evaluation ?

You claim and support the claim that Sleepy Hollow is an easy walk, despite physical evidence to the contrary.
No one I know, who has played Sleepy Hollow, categorizes it as an easy walk.
In fact you offered contradictory evidence in your reply # 18 when you described the walk up # 2 and # 3 as akin to "ascending to an Alpine Meadow.   How do you justify your contradictory statements ?..

What's comical is your seemingly contradictory advocacy of "family" tees, or were they just for your grandmother?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here's my thought on the walk:  the vistas are the payoff.

I think the routing at Sleepy Hollow is superb and in some ways reminds me of Bandon Trails (or does Bandon Trails remind me of Sleepy Hollow?).

You start with the get away holes, in this case a downhill4, an uphill 4 and a 3 across a gorge.  The climb up the second lets you know you're in for something special, especially if you take a peak over your shoulder and catch a bit of the expanse of river behind you.  When you climb up the hill from the 3rd green into the central playing field, you almost feel like you've ascended into a high alpine meadow.  You get to play four holes here (4, 5, 6 and 7) and get a peak at some of the joys to come (13, 14 and 15).  The exploration continues, as you then play a small loop away from the halfway (thirdway?) shack, only to return after 12.  After the alpine meadow, the stroll through the high forest of the loop (replete with a pond that must have been filled by glacial runoff) provides the "escape" feeling, the sense of having left the world behind.

Having had a preview of almost all of the closing stretch (with the exception of the wonder of standing on the 16th tee and green), you pretty much know what's in store as you return to the heart of the course.  There are a ton of fun shots to look forward to coming home, including the punchbowl green approach, the short and the downhill drive on 17.  To close things out, you're left with the task of besting the 18th, a wonderful uphill closing hole that places demands on every shot.

When you look back on the round, you're left with memories of the principal's nose, balls careening off the bank at the reverse redan, tee shots searching for the proper side of a fairway or climbing the last few yards of a hill to be breached and approaches skirting that last hurdle before trundling onto a green.  There are great bunkers, but the course is far from being a sandbox.  There's movement in the greens.  There's elevation and there are relatively flat holes.  There's something to examine and learn on every hole, if not every shot.  Its a great course, and while the walk may be demanding in places[/size] (and downright fun in others), the payoffs are worth every ounce of energy expended on the journey.[/size]



Sven, for someone who claims that Sleepy Hollow is an easy walk, you certainly have an odd way of stating/contradicting that.

[Will Lozier]

Here's my thought on the walk:  the vistas are the payoff.

I think the routing at Sleepy Hollow is superb and in some ways reminds me of Bandon Trails (or does Bandon Trails remind me of Sleepy Hollow?).

You start with the get away holes, in this case a downhill4, an uphill 4 and a 3 across a gorge.  The climb up the second lets you know you're in for something special, especially if you take a peak over your shoulder and catch a bit of the expanse of river behind you.  When you climb up the hill from the 3rd green into the central playing field, you almost feel like you've ascended into a high alpine meadow.  You get to play four holes here (4, 5, 6 and 7) and get a peak at some of the joys to come (13, 14 and 15).  The exploration continues, as you then play a small loop away from the halfway (thirdway?) shack, only to return after 12.  After the alpine meadow, the stroll through the high forest of the loop (replete with a pond that must have been filled by glacial runoff) provides the "escape" feeling, the sense of having left the world behind.

Having had a preview of almost all of the closing stretch (with the exception of the wonder of standing on the 16th tee and green), you pretty much know what's in store as you return to the heart of the course.  There are a ton of fun shots to look forward to coming home, including the punchbowl green approach, the short and the downhill drive on 17.  To close things out, you're left with the task of besting the 18th, a wonderful uphill closing hole that places demands on every shot.

When you look back on the round, you're left with memories of the principal's nose, balls careening off the bank at the reverse redan, tee shots searching for the proper side of a fairway or climbing the last few yards of a hill to be breached and approaches skirting that last hurdle before trundling onto a green.  There are great bunkers, but the course is far from being a sandbox.  There's movement in the greens.  There's elevation and there are relatively flat holes.  There's something to examine and learn on every hole, if not every shot.  Its a great course, and while the walk may be demanding in places[/size] (and downright fun in others), the payoffs are worth every ounce of energy expended on the journey.[/size]



Sven, for someone who claims that Sleepy Hollow is an easy walk, you certainly have an odd way of stating/contradicting that.

The last thing I thought of while reading Sven's excellent description was "difficult."  "Ascending into an alpine meadow" did NOT conjure up images of struggle or exhaustion.  And I've done a little bit of mountaineering.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,

What, about the word "ALPINE" doesn't convey a precipitous climb ?

[Will Lozier]

One of the differences between you and me is that I rely on my personal experiences, whereas you choose to rely on hearsay from third parties absent personal substantiation.  [/b][/size][/color]

Earlier from Pat...
"Jeff, I've never played the Bridge, but I understand from others that it's a very difficult walk.
I should have included it with HN and TRABB."

[Will Lozier]

Will,

What, about the word "ALPINE" doesn't convey a precipitous climb ?

Context...alpine meadow.  Do you think Sven wanted us to envision glaciers and wind-blown peaks? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,

What, about the word "ALPINE" doesn't convey a precipitous climb ?

Context...alpine meadow. 


And how do you ascend to an "Alpine Meadow" ?

If there was no climb involved, why not just say "meadow"

Have you ever played Sleepy Hollow ?

Do you think Sven wanted us to envision glaciers and wind-blown peaks? 

One never knows what Sven wants us to envision, but the use of the word "Alpine" refers to the "Alps" or "high mountains".
Look it up in "Webster's Dictionary"
I don't think you'll find mention of "glaciers" or "wind-blown peaks", so I have to conclude that you erroneously inserted those words to cover up your initial mistake.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy, et. al.,

I don't think you and many others have a comprehensive grasp on "walkability"

When a golfer is fit, with no health issues, every course is walkable.

When a golfer has health and/or physical issues, "walkable" takes on an entirely different meaning.

To those with health/physical issues, a course like Southampton or Westhampton is walkable, The Bridge, Hamilton Farms, Bayonne and other similar courses aren't walkable.

Sleepy Hollow is a difficult walk

You are probably right that I don't understand what walkable means for those who have some health issues.  In the past year my wife has stopped walking and carrying her bag.  I find that at 65 I will sometimes jump in a cart for the second 18.  If I take a caddie I can still easily walk 36.  I have run ultra marathons in the past until my knees gave out. I struggle with what I will do when or if I can no longer carry and walk at least 18.  Part of me thinks I will take a cart and another thinks I will quit playing.  I am one of those guys who will walk and carry even if a greens fee includes a cart.  Walking is so much a part of the game for me that I can't imagine it without it.

Probably more than you needed to know.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

I walked until this March when I blew out my knee in a stupid accident.

Recently, I took my son to Friars Head right after it had rained 3 inches.
The course was closed to carts.
Had it not been my son and his first visit to Friars Head I wouldn't have played.
But, I didn't want him to miss playing and seeing the course, which he loved, so I walked.
It was very painful and slow and I was concerned that I could do more damage, but, for my son, I walked.

We then played 27 or 36 for the next three days at a number of nearby courses.

No amount of ice and anti-inflamatories could undue what I did to that knee.

So, when I recently played Sleepy Hollow, I rode.
Could I have walked ?
Sure, slowly and painfully, but at what price ?
At what enjoyment ?

Walking is a luxury, only facilitated by luck and good health.

I also understand the insane and cavalier nature of those claiming that a course like Sleepy Hollow is an easy walk.
That just flies in the face of reality and logic.

Don't give up the game.
Riding in a cart due to medical limitations is no sin.

I want to see the he-man heroes walk a golf course during radiation and full dose chemotherapy every day.
Chances are, they won't be able to get out of bed, let alone walk Sleepy Hollow .

[Sven Nilsen]

Will,

What, about the word "ALPINE" doesn't convey a precipitous climb ?

Pat:

Have you been to the Alps (I'm not talking about NGLA)?

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,

What, about the word "ALPINE" doesn't convey a precipitous climb ?

Pat:

Have you been to the Alps (I'm not talking about NGLA)?

Sven,

Have you ever been inside "Webster's Dictionary" ?

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Never the inside, I've only viewed it from a close distance.

I think you missed the humor, as you most often do.

You think Sleepy Hollow is a difficult walk, not surprising after the list of ailments you've regaled us with.

Quite a few other posters, including myself, have indicated that we don't think its as bad as you make it out to be.  I guess we all must be in that narrow range of golfers that you described, which is nice.

I am also sorry that you can't understand how words can be used to convey a sense of place.  That is what I meant by the phrase "alpine meadow."  I certainly wasn't insinuating that one needs a team of porters, cramp-ons and a well-versed Swiss guide to get there.

I await your next crop-dusting episode.

[Alex Lagowitz]

Sand Hills is not the hardest walk by any means; the walk from green to tee on most holes is fairly short.
However, many of the walking outside of the fairways is tough.  The areas are often soft sand - which takes a toll on your feet - and a few of the walks were up steep slopes.  The walk from 9 tee to fairway was one that particularly got me, as well as the one from 2 tee to fairway.  This was especially tough from the back tees.

[Chip Gaskins]

Sleepy Hollow is a hard walk, but Mayacama much harder personally.  Both are vastly underrated.  Augusta is a hard walk as well, but you are such a high you don't realize it.

[Dan Kelly]

What other courses are terrific, but difficult to walk ?

Sutton Bay (the original course was a very difficult walk, which I never walked)

White Bear Yacht Club (strenuous walk; brisk walk; sporting walk)

Giants Ridge Quarry (lots of ups and downs -- especially ups [emoticon omitted])

Went to a wedding at Pasatiempo Sunday. Didn't get to walk or play the course -- but it looked as though it might take a bit of lung power.

I wonder if courses where one mostly climbs to tees seem more difficult to walk than courses where one mostly climbs to greens. Or if it's vice versa.

[Jeff Fortson]

Mike,

What courses that you played in the Met area presented more difficult walks than SH ?

Pat,

Another course in the Met Section that came to mind is Nissequogue CC out in Smithtown on Long Island.  That's a pretty challenging walk too.


Jeff F.

[archie_struthers]

 



Hey guys    I've walked Bayonne a bunch of times, it's fine IMHO. . While a little chubby at 56 my pins are quite good and I think Pine Valley is a tougher walk . PV  is pretty perfect , it's a good walk but it  doesn't faze me . I'm guessing the humidity  at Bayonne  this summer is the problem . The walk just isnt that  bad.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Never the inside, I've only viewed it from a close distance.

I think you missed the humor, as you most often do.

I didn't miss your attempt at humor

You think Sleepy Hollow is a difficult walk, not surprising after the list of ailments you've regaled us with.

Quite a few other posters, including myself, have indicated that we don't think its as bad as you make it out to be.  I guess we all must be in that narrow range of golfers that you described, which is nice.

I never said it was "bad", i said it was "difficult"
You agreed with me in your reply # 18, you admitted that it was a difficult walk.
Here's your quote below

It's a great course, and while the walk may be demanding in places (and downright fun in others), the payoffs are worth every ounce of energy expended on the journey.

I am also sorry that you can't understand how words can be used to convey a sense of place.

I understand quite well, and I understand the connotation of the word, "alpine"  

That is what I meant by the phrase "alpine meadow."  

I completely understood your phrase in the context of ascending # 2, 3 to the 4th tee and the surrounding view.
It's quite stunning, but like the "Alps", it takes a heck of a climb to get up there to enjoy that view.

I guess the ultimate support of my position is evidenced by the type of cart the club uses.
They use gas carts as electric carts could never make the climbs.     

I certainly wasn't insinuating that one needs a team of porters, cramp-ons and a well-versed Swiss guide to get there.

That would be a "Himalayan Meadow"    

I await your next crop-dusting episode.

"GAS CARTS". That tells you everything you need to know

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hey guys    I've walked Bayonne a bunch of times, it's fine IMHO. . While a little chubby at 56 my pins are quite good and I think Pine Valley is a tougher walk . PV  is pretty perfect , it's a good walk but it  doesn't faze me . I'm guessing the humidity  at Bayonne  this summer is the problem . The walk just isnt that  bad.

Archie,

When I was approaching your age I was playing full court basketball at the local Y three (3) times a week.

I think the almost constant breeze at Bayonne makes it more comfortable in the summer.

Not much in the way of breezes at PV in the summer