Should the PGA Championship return to Kiawah?

[Phil Benedict]

I liked the fact that Kiawah allowed the winner to separate himself with phenomenal driviing, along with his great short game on Sunday.  It's hard to bring driver into play so much on a classic course.  One thing in favor of more recent designs is they can be better fitted to the modern pro game.  It will be interesting to see if Chambers Bay and Erin Hills play similarly.

[Kalen Braley]

Since we're talking about logisitics...

It seems they could put out a call to every operator of these along the Eastern seaboard and run people into the course every day from Charleston or Folly Beach.  Sure you couldn't move 30k people this way, but even if you only moved 5k people per day like this, it would take 18-20% of the load off the main road entrance.  I'm guessing the boat ride would be about 60-70 minutes from Charleston and a much funner way to get there.  Just a thought.

[Howard Riefs]

To whoever asked about Whistling, I had the best place possible for WS - I stayed with Dick Daley:) We had a ball.  And I was able to drive my car right to the entrance of the tournament - no buss ride! Wonderfully convenient.  I even stopped every day at the kids' lemonade and cookie stand which was about a mile from the course. 

Bus shuttles weren't needed at Whistling Straits. You parked in a giant field on the south (2010) or west (2004) side of the property.

[Philip Caccamise]

If Majors were made for the media, they'd want a course with parking on-site with a quality hotel nearby for them.  The world does not work that way.  Many of the great course that would challenge the world's greatest players don't have convenient parking and hotels for the media.  
sorry...  Majors are for the those who love the game watching the greatest players in the world taking on a challenging course.  I love the idea of a Sand Hill Major.  However, corporate hospitality dictates having it near an area that can support corporate sponsorship.  There is a fine line on which venues can host majors.  Kiawah made a good profit for the PGA with hospitality, concessions, merchandise admission sales.  It provided good television with good ratings.  That's the bottom line of whether a major is successful...

They'll get their course with parking on site and a quality hotel(s) nearby next year. Let's see if they whine again.

Despite the fact that it is my hometown and I was employed there for several years, I'd just as well see it at a place like Kiawah as Oak Hill. The course looked awesome on TV and acquitted itself well- playing from very scoreable to damn near impossible in the span of 4 days!

Oak Hill has the logistics nailed. They've done it so many times, and the city of Rochester works so hard to get it right plus with hosting a huge LPGA event every year it's the best logistics of any golf event. Winged Foot does a nice job too- but the "regular" parking is quite a long bus ride from the course at SUNY Purchase.

[Austin Wade]

I think the course presented very well on TV, and seemed to be a good test for the pros.  I would hope the PGA would return there sooner rather than later. 

[Brent Hutto]

I liked the fact that Kiawah allowed the winner to separate himself with phenomenal driviing, along with his great short game on Sunday.  It's hard to bring driver into play so much on a classic course.  One thing in favor of more recent designs is they can be better fitted to the modern pro game.  It will be interesting to see if Chambers Bay and Erin Hills play similarly.

A couple days before the tournament started I was talking about the Ocean Course with Pete Galea. My predictions were:

a) it was a course where players hitting their driver well could gain a big advantage over those forced to lay back with shorter clubs or who hit driver but missed their lines and shot shapes in the wind

b) the winning score would be around 10 under par unless by some remote chance the winds were heavy all four days

I think those were uncharacteristically (for me!) on target predictions. My only surprise was that some of the "chasers" on Sunday didn't manage to post -8 or -9 instead of falling back so precipitously. But having seen the angles, distances and hazards involved from the way-back tees and combined with the ball-repelling green complexes (not to mention the reluctance of Paspalum fairways to let a "stinger" shot roll out 60 yards as at Hoylake) I thought it a very safe guess that it would be a course at which the proverbial Big Dog could figuratively Eat. And Rory's driver ate very well indeed.

Rory's weekend at the Ocean Course reminded me a lot of Oosthuizen's at the Old Course. Surgical precision with the driver in a fair breeze on a hazard-strewn golf course where a lot of contender were using a more cautious layup strategy and a couple days of nigh flawless play on putts of 5-15 feet. I think any course that rewards that particular combination with multi-shot victories is a worthy championship venue.

[George Freeman]

By the way, I do think it should go back -- after they build highway capacity.

I hope they don't build a highway.  Kiawah and Seabrook are just perfect the way they are right now.  Plus the drive into the islands off Bohicket Rd is magical.

[Mike Hendren]

Arguably, the course is among the top five professional championship venues in this country.

Speaking of logistics, I have a question for our Philly contingent:  I have weekly tickets to the U. S. Open at Merion next year.  Should I leave tomorrow?

Bogey

[PCCraig]

Absolutely. A great seaside Pete Dye course that features a ton of risk reward and sits in a beautiful setting that produces a worthy Champion...sounds like a nice host to me.

The fact that the Golf media is complaining about long commutes to the golf course, and that that is somehow supposed to hamper the course's chances of hosting further tournaments, is beyond dumb. I know for a fact that there were plenty of opportunities to rent condos or rooms on Kiawah and Seabrook islands.

If anything we should applaud Kiawah and the PGA for hosting a championship on a unique & interesting site, and making a sacrifice in ticket sales to do so. Of course no one here will, but I'm sure it'll happen next year when the USGA goes to Merion.

Besides, what is the other option? A return trip to Atlanta Athletic?  

The media is simply trying to do their job.  Our time is our most valuable asset and a 2-1/2 commute form the  media hotel - where the PGA sets us up to stay - a 2-1/2 hr commute from the hotel to the course is a waste of it. A brutal waste of it.

Early shuttles took 65 min.

Did the PGA of America force you to stay in the "media hotel" in order to gain a media badge or would it of been possible for you to stay on Kiawah (or even Seabrook Island?).

[Howard Riefs]

I don't see how the logistics of getting to and from the venue can be improved.  It is a residential community with a winding two lane road, And because of the residential nature of the entire island it is a solid 20 minutes even by car to get from the main gate all the way out to the Ocean course.

I would be very curious to hear of a very clever solution to get spectators, fans, media, etc. out to the venue without all the inherent hassles that have been discussed in detail over the last few days.

Building or expanding the roads is not the solution. No, there is no perfect solution. But we can likely agree that fewer cars traveling on Maybank Highway and Bohicket Road to/from Charleston would result in a faster commute.

How to accomplish this? Eliminate Kiawah's Freshfields Village as the central location for spectator parking. Instead, designate a sizable paved parking lot on the mainland such as the North Charleston Coliseum where people can park and access shuttles. Sure, it's a 37-mile ride from there to the gate at TOC and it will take an hour drive. That's still a faster drive than spectators (and media) faced last week.  

For the deep pockets/sponsors who have a home or are renting on Kiawah and Seabrook Islands, run a couple shuttles from those locations. For those who live south of Kiawah or the neighboring barrier islands, perhaps the PGA finds an option for them but it's not a prerequisite.

A case study example is how the USGA effectively managed shuttles for the 2008 US Open at Torrey Pines. Spectators parked at Qualcomm Stadium and shuttles traveled the 17 miles north to La Jolla. I don't believe there was another parking option for those who were not in close proximity to San Diego. Similarly, for this year's US Open, Candlestick Park served as the designated parking/shuttle location.  

I'd be interested to learn why the PGA/Kiawah didn't go with this solution this year. Did they run/sponsor a related study? For all I know, it's what Sports Illustrated's Gary Van Sickle reports:

"The traffic was the worst I've seen at a major since the 1984 U.S. Open at Winged Foot, where a number of players abandoned their cars and made a run for the course with their clubs slung over their shoulders. This traffic failure seemed to be based on Kiawah officials' desire to collect $20 a day in parking for thousands of cars that should've been parked on the mainland, where the other shuttles ran."

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/pga-championship-logistics-kiawah-island-were-ugly

Gary also reports that the PGA/Kiawah also levied a $20 fee to cabs that dropped people off at TOC. Rediculous.

https://twitter.com/GaryVanSickle/status/234381614463979520

[PCCraig]

Gary also reports that the PGA/Kiawah also levied a $20 fee to cabs that dropped people off at TOC. Rediculous.

https://twitter.com/GaryVanSickle/status/234381614463979520

I can't say I agree. That keeps people from nearby towns from bypassing the shuttle as well as keep extra traffic off the drive out to the course. Where people allowed to get out of cabs near Freshfields in order to get onto a shuttle?

[Jeff_Lewis]

I have played Kiawah many times with both types of grass. I have always been a fan of the course, but I must confess that from an architectural standpoint, I didn't understand the golf course watching the pros play it. How can you have a seaside course, exposed to wind on a regular basis, where the architecture (only 3 greens with low profile front entrances available) and the maintenance (the new paspalum and generally soft conditions) eliminate the ground game?  Preposterous, really.  A shame, too, because it was great to see that a course can be challenging and appropriate for tour players even if it has WIDTH. Perhaps the agronomists on here can enlighten me.  The paspalum is tee to green all over the course? Could one have planted the tees and greens with it and left the rest of the grass as something else?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

More details on the "logistical nightmare."

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/aug/15/major-venue-kiawah-logistical-nightmare/


Re: Merion

Don't drive. Public transportation will drop you off near Ardmore Avenue. Buy a good pair of walking shoes.

http://www.septa.org/maps/transit/nhsl.html

[Jud_T]

I have played Kiawah many times with both types of grass. I have always been a fan of the course, but I must confess that from an architectural standpoint, I didn't understand the golf course watching the pros play it. How can you have a seaside course, exposed to wind on a regular basis, where the architecture (only 3 greens with low profile front entrances available) and the maintenance (the new paspalum and generally soft conditions) eliminate the ground game?  Preposterous, really.  A shame, too, because it was great to see that a course can be challenging and appropriate for tour players even if it has WIDTH. Perhaps the agronomists on here can enlighten me.  The paspalum is tee to green all over the course? Could one have planted the tees and greens with it and left the rest of the grass as something else?

Jeff,

From my experience the Paspalum, if cut to fairway height and in a relatively dry, non-humid climate, is plenty fun for the ground game. 
Clearly they had a huge amount of rain just before and during the event which threw a wrench into the setup plans.  The question for those more knowledgeable than myself is how appropriate it is in a climate like Kiawah's, which I'm unfamiliar with.

[PCCraig]

From Jeff Rude's article above:

One-way bus trips from Charleston took an hour minimum because of traffic, and those were the lucky ones.

What Jeff fails to say is that It's an hour drive from Charleston to the end of Kiawah Island (Ocean Course) when there isn't a tournament going on.

Then he goes on to say:

Another veteran fan told me that once he finally got to the course, he encountered his worst spectator experience ever because of “general poor viewing” and more. The South Carolina businessman said he couldn’t get near any tee box except the last two, couldn’t find a place to sit and eat and thought heat relief was substandard.

"Another veteran fan"  who is apparently from South Carolina but thought the "heat relief" wasn't good enough. What? It's August in the low country...what did he expect?

And this one is the kicker:

Some veteran writers seemed to think it was the worst major ever, and that wasn’t even factoring in the 5 1/2-hour rounds.

“The only way the PGA should come back here is if they have flying buses,” one scribe said.

Couldn’t agree more.

Give me a break. I had multiple family members on the island all week for the PGA, and by all accounts it was extremely well run and easy to watch golf as the amount of tickets were greatly limited. This is a horrible case of a few spoiled media members taking out their frustrations on having to be bused in from off the island. Absolutely no one was stopping them from renting a place for the week on the island or next door Seabrook island.

Quite frankly I've never been to a PGA Tour golf event that wasn't a gigantic pain to get to. The 2003 US Open at Olympia Fields required a couple of Metra trains to get to the front gate, and probably was a 2 hour trip from North of the City. But I still went all 4 days...it was great! And if these guys thought Kiawah was bad, just wait for Merion next year! 

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I have played Kiawah many times with both types of grass. I have always been a fan of the course, but I must confess that from an architectural standpoint, I didn't understand the golf course watching the pros play it. How can you have a seaside course, exposed to wind on a regular basis, where the architecture (only 3 greens with low profile front entrances available) and the maintenance (the new paspalum and generally soft conditions) eliminate the ground game?  Preposterous, really.  A shame, too, because it was great to see that a course can be challenging and appropriate for tour players even if it has WIDTH. Perhaps the agronomists on here can enlighten me.  The paspalum is tee to green all over the course? Could one have planted the tees and greens with it and left the rest of the grass as something else?

Jeff,

From my experience the Paspalum, if cut to fairway height and in a relatively dry, non-humid climate, is plenty fun for the ground game. 
Clearly they had a huge amount of rain just before and during the event which threw a wrench into the setup plans.  The question for those more knowledgeable than myself is how appropriate it is in a climate like Kiawah's, which I'm unfamiliar with.

As I mentioned before, we turned the sprinklers off two weeks before the Championship and top-dressed the greens with an ultra-fine sand to speed everything up.  We didn't figure on 6 inches of rain over 4 days just prior to teeing off...

[Jeff_Lewis]

So, Mike V, if the tournament had been played two weeks earlier, the course would have accepted running shots from the fairway and around the green?

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

So, Mike V, if the tournament had been played two weeks earlier, the course would have accepted running shots from the fairway and around the green?

It would have played substantially different.  Run-up would have been possible on No. 1, 4, 6, 7, possibly 9, 10, 12, 13, 15 and possibly 18 (many depending on the ability to shape their shots).  We had been in near-drought conditions through most of the summer.  It didn't start to rain until the week before the Championship...

[Kalen Braley]

Mike.

Just curious.  How feasible would it to be to transport people via the fanboats/airboats as mentioned in my previous post?

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Mike.

Just curious.  How feasible would it to be to transport people via the fanboats/airboats as mentioned in my previous post?

That's beyond my technical knowledge but, based on my weekend use of my 17' Boston Whaler, so much is dependant on tides while boating in the Lowcountry.  Plus there's limited parking on Folly Beach since the beach erosion that's been occuring over the past year or so wiping out the county park on the south side of the island.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike.

Just curious.  How feasible would it to be to transport people via the fanboats/airboats as mentioned in my previous post?

That's beyond my technical knowledge but, based on my weekend use of my 17' Boston Whaler, so much is dependant on tides while boating in the Lowcountry.  Plus there's limited parking on Folly Beach since the beach erosion that's been occuring over the past year or so wiping out the county park on the south side of the island.

I was thinking more along the lines of boating them in from Charleston.....which would look to have plenty of docking/embarking locations and more than likely where most of the hotels are.

[Sven Nilsen]

Kalen:

What world do you live in?

Anyone that suggested building a highway:

Highways should be built because they are needed for everyday transportation, not to accommodate a golf tournament that may or may not happen once a decade, if that.  The road out to Kiawah is part of the charm of the place.  People go to Kiawah to get away, not to vacation at the end of a thruway.

Mike:

Thanks for providing your insight on the tournament, its been interesting to read your thoughts on the preparation during the lead-up, and to get your take on how it went off.  One question I have is how you think the recent changes effected the outcome (I'm thinking back to the threads earlier this year discussing the addition of patchy rough areas around bunkers, etc.).

Thanks,

Sven

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

What world do you live in?

Sven,

The practical/logical world where we look for out-of-the-box solutions to solve problems that require virtually no infrastructure expenditures....not the same ol costly "tear down houses and pour more asphalt" solution.

[Sven Nilsen]

Kalen:

What world do you live in?

Sven,

The practical/logical world where we look for out-of-the-box solutions to solve problems that require virtually no infrastructure expenditures....not the same ol costly "tear down houses and pour more asphalt" solution.

I think you need to reexamine the words practical and logical.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

What world do you live in?

Sven,

The practical/logical world where we look for out-of-the-box solutions to solve problems that require virtually no infrastructure expenditures....not the same ol costly "tear down houses and pour more asphalt" solution.

I think you need to reexamine the words practical and logical.

I think you need to do a bit more of this...