Should the PGA Championship return to Kiawah?

[Mac Plumart]

Mark...

Are you not reading what I'm writing on purpose?  I'm not talking solely about Riviera or LACC...I'm talking about classic courses period.  And I'm not talking about Crooked Stick at all.

You asked people who wanted another major to be held Kiawah to state what other courses they'd forgo playing in order to have a major at Kiawah, a concept akin to opportunity cost.  My answer to your question was all classic courses.  With that, I've answered your question.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike Vegis:

I agree with your take ... tournaments should not be decided for the convenience of golf writers, or even spectators. *

But, don't you have a lot of places on site where you could put people up?


* Also, since corporations are people, I don't think the event should be decided for the convenience of corporate sponsors, either.  But, if it's really all about money, then what is the point of this thread anyway?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mac, apparently I have not been paying attention -- in principle I agree re classic courses; I was focused on Riviera (and to a lesser extent LACC).

[Mark Pritchett]

It was not a secret that there is really only one way to and from the Ocean Course?  Not sure why this is big news today. 

Did most people think it would take only a few minutes to get parked and shuttled in? 

I attended on Friday and had a great time, could some things have been better, of course, but all in all I thought it was a well run event. 

[Criss Titschinger]

In the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky area, we recently went through a learning experience when it came to hosting a NASCAR Sprint Cup race at Kentucky Speedway. Last year, it was a logistical nightmare. Over the year, various improvements (improved highways, land acquisition for parking, more law enforcement, and general better logistical planning) were made and the event went much better. To be fair, part of that was a slightly lesser attendance because some people vowed to never come back after sitting 7-8 hours in a car only to never make it to the speedway, or to be turned around b/c parking was maxed out.

Big difference between that and with Kiawah Island is there isn't really room to do the type of logistical changes that some people will ask for. And I'm sure the island/resort would find it hard to justify the expense/headache for four days of golf every 7-10 years. As most (golfers) know, TOC is at the end of the island on a two-lane road. It's about 18 miles from Savannah Highway to Cassique, and about 8 more from there to the Ocean Course. That's not going to change.

From a golf perspective, I would absolutely want to see it come back to Kiawah Ocean.

[Terry Lavin]

Majors are made for TV events. That course fits the bill in every way. Give the media some cheese with their whine!

How is the weather in June?  That is a US Open course! 

Another PGA?  Another Ryder Cup?  Absolutely. Slam dunk, even if the scribblers have to drive 3 hours a day.

[RJ_Daley]

Someone above questioned if a ferry could be utilized.  I wonder if there is deep enough water to bring in and position some of what I think is excess capacity in the cruise liner industry these days.  Certainly there are enough smaller craft in that region to do a sort of shuttle/water taxi back and forth to the anchored liners.  And, that sand in much of the area is firm, and what about the camper industry doing what the Cadilac, Buick and other luxuary cars do for promotions in providing players courtesy cars, and bring in some nice fleet of courtesy campers to create a sort of beach party writers atmosphere.  They could get the big generators like the golf course tent corporate city for power, and have a mess tent for catered grub by the endless great food/restaurant industries in Charleston region.  Put up a few port-a-poties, and let the writers fill them up.  It would be great!   

[Tom ORourke]

I was there Thursday and Friday. Both days I was at the parking lot by 6:30 and at the first tee by 7:10. Getting in is not the issue. The roads going in are 45-55 mph and traffic moved well at that time, and going out was not too bad once you got to the road. Getting out of the lot and to the road was another matter. The buses actually were not that bad after the first day and we never hit any snags once the bus started moving.  Logistics are an issue but I think keeping the crowd to 30,000 helped quite a bit.

I enjoyed the heck out of Friday, watching those guys play in those conditions. I was really impressed by the quality of shots in that wind. We could see who could really play instead of golf in a dome. I think the course will identify people who are playing well that week. I would like to see the event go back there. More seating is needed for spectators, and the parking needs some refinements, but the course is great. I thought the 3 winners of the week were Rory, Kiawah, and paspalum. The course was immaculate.

[Ross Harmon]

Not to threadjack here, but where does the press stay at Whistling Straits? I was there 2 years ago and stayed in Milwaukee. Took about 1:15 each day to drive up and get in, but that wasn't too bad IMO. Not all courses are within 2 miles of 3,000 rooms - particularly those as scenic as Whistling Straits and The Ocean Course.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mike Vegis:

I agree with your take ... tournaments should not be decided for the convenience of golf writers, or even spectators. *

But, don't you have a lot of places on site where you could put people up?


* Also, since corporations are people, I don't think the event should be decided for the convenience of corporate sponsors, either.  But, if it's really all about money, then what is the point of this thread anyway?

Tom, it's only about money.  Case in point was the 2001 Ryder Cup, moved to 2002 because of the September 11, 2001 events.  
Previous Ryder Cups around wartimes were not played altogether (see WWII years).  I understand the Cups were played during the years the United States was involved in Vietnam, so I can't speak to this.  
The Ryder Cup, from the late 1920s, was played in odd-numbered years.  Moving forward, it is played in even-numbered years.  How nice to break with tradition for a few bucks.  I don't recall the exact reasons given by the PGA for postponing rather than cancelling, but I remember feeling that the excuses were rather weak at best, and it was a purely money thing.    
I'm sure the PGA Tour had a hand in the decision as well, heaven forbid the Presidents Cup be cancelled for a year.  

The USGA does what they can to make it seem less all about the money, even though their television commercials are so patronizing it's sick.  

The PGA seems to unabashedly declare it's only about the money.    

When can we go back to Valhalla?

[Michael Tamburrini]

Mike Vegis:

I agree with your take ... tournaments should not be decided for the convenience of golf writers, or even spectators. *

But, don't you have a lot of places on site where you could put people up?


* Also, since corporations are people, I don't think the event should be decided for the convenience of corporate sponsors, either.  But, if it's really all about money, then what is the point of this thread anyway?

Tom, it's only about money.  Case in point was the 2001 Ryder Cup, moved to 2002 because of the September 11, 2001 events.  
Previous Ryder Cups around wartimes were not played altogether (see WWII years).  I understand the Cups were played during the years the United States was involved in Vietnam, so I can't speak to this.  
The Ryder Cup, from the late 1920s, was played in odd-numbered years.  Moving forward, it is played in even-numbered years.  How nice to break with tradition for a few bucks.  I don't recall the exact reasons given by the PGA for postponing rather than cancelling, but I remember feeling that the excuses were rather weak at best, and it was a purely money thing.    
I'm sure the PGA Tour had a hand in the decision as well, heaven forbid the Presidents Cup be cancelled for a year.  

The USGA does what they can to make it seem less all about the money, even though their television commercials are so patronizing it's sick.  

The PGA seems to unabashedly declare it's only about the money.    

When can we go back to Valhalla?

Changing the Ryder Cup to even number years has probably cost the PGA money.  If they were so desperate to go ahead with the 2001 matches in 2002 then they should have reverted back to normal in 2003.  Now they have to compete with the Olympics and the World Cup in even numbered years which probably has lost them a bit of their media cycle.  Certainly, here in the UK, the Ryder Cup has barely been mentioned due to the euphoria about the Olympics.

But of course it is all about money.  What else but money could cause them, when looking at all the possible courses in Scotland to host the event, to choose the Centenary Course at Gleneagles.  Imagine a Ryder Cup at St Andrews or Carnoustie or Muirfield...  if only.

I actually thought the PGA did a really good job of confirmingthe PGA into the weakest major this last week.  Not only is it far too close to the Open Championship to get proper media coverage but the TV coverage is absolutely terrible (particularly on Thursday and Friday). 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Do you feel that any of the courses at Bandon could host a PGA ?

Would added length be necessary ?

Would added length be feasable ?

[PCCraig]

Tom Doak,

Do you feel that any of the courses at Bandon could host a PGA ?

Would added length be necessary ?

Would added length be feasable ?

Kiawah Island is not anywhere near as remote as Bandon, or anywhere in the Sand Hills for that matter. It's 35 min to downtown Charleston and 50 min to an international airport. Comparisons of this past Kiawah PGA to a future PGA in Bandon or the Sand Hills are bizarre.

[Mark Pritchett]

Kiawah Island is not anywhere near as remote as Bandon, or anywhere in the Sand Hills for that matter. It's 35 min to downtown Charleston and 50 min to an international airport. Comparisons of this past Kiawah PGA to a future PGA in Bandon or the Sand Hills are bizarre.

Agreed. 

 Pinehurst is more "remote" than Kiawah. 

[John Foley]

Kiawah presented a tremendous venue visually for those who watched it on TV and a stern test for the players. I for one was rivited to it just for the stunning images. 

I say bring it back ASAP.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Do you feel that any of the courses at Bandon could host a PGA ?

Would added length be necessary ?

Would added length be feasable ?

Kiawah Island is not anywhere near as remote as Bandon, or anywhere in the Sand Hills for that matter. It's 35 min to downtown Charleston and 50 min to an international airport. Comparisons of this past Kiawah PGA to a future PGA in Bandon or the Sand Hills are bizarre.

Pat,

When you consider that the PGA hasn't been to the far west in 21 years, it's not so bizarre.
When you consider the similiarity in an ocean site, swept by wind, it's not so bizarre.

There's also a nearby airport, less than 50 minutes I believe, that can handle almost any commercial jet.

My question to Tom Doak had to do with his assessment of the courses in the context of offering a challenge to the PGA Tour Golfer, which is also not so bizarre.

[Matt MacIver]

Kiawah's TOC proved it is worthy of hosting a Major.  I definitely want to see it on the PGAs permanent rota, but it's a big world and KI has some logistics to work out, so a TOC major every 10-15 years would suit me fine.

Over the next decade I'd love to see them figure out a way to mass-ship spectators in from Charleston, Folly, IoP, Seabrooke and maybe even Fripp and Hilton Head.

I would also love to know what the occupancy rate was last week for all rentals on KI and Seabrooke. My sense is the resort was looking for max rental pricing (their right) but if they offered a 20% discount to normal summer rates the traffic would be less, bike usage up and they'd make it up on F&B and shirt sales. Go KI!

[PCCraig]

I would also love to know what the occupancy rate was last week for all rentals on KI and Seabrooke. My sense is the resort was looking for max rental pricing (their right) but if they offered a 20% discount to normal summer rates the traffic would be less, bike usage up and they'd make it up on F&B and shirt sales. Go KI!

Matt,

The Kiawah Island resort doesn't have that kind of power over occupancy rates on Kiawah over privately owned properties. Kiawah has a rental arm I believe, but there are a few major companies that rent properties on the island as well.

[Phil McDade]

I know that when the Open Championship was held at Carnoustie in 1999, a number of players stayed in St. Andrews and took a fairly quick high-speed ferry across the Firth to Carnoustie, which really does have little in terms of accommodations (that's how I ended up having a beer w/ Nick Price at the Dunvegan).

For Whistling Straits, much of the housing for players, guests and media types is almost certainly done at Herb Kohler's American Club Resort, a pretty nice place in Kohler proper, and about 10-15 minutes from the Straits course itself. There is also plenty of spillover accommodations in Sheboygan. The Straits is less than a mile off a four-lane interestate, and access to and from the course is pretty easy. But similar to what I saw at Kiawah, on-the-ground viewing at the Straits is a bit of a chore. Dye uses a similar figure-8 routing, and it is a hike over some pretty rugged terrain to get to all points of the course.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Kiawah's TOC proved it is worthy of hosting a Major.  I definitely want to see it on the PGAs permanent rota, but it's a big world and KI has some logistics to work out, so a TOC major every 10-15 years would suit me fine.

Over the next decade I'd love to see them figure out a way to mass-ship spectators in from Charleston, Folly, IoP, Seabrooke and maybe even Fripp and Hilton Head.

I would also love to know what the occupancy rate was last week for all rentals on KI and Seabrooke. My sense is the resort was looking for max rental pricing (their right) but if they offered a 20% discount to normal summer rates the traffic would be less, bike usage up and they'd make it up on F&B and shirt sales. Go KI!

We didn't jack up our rates.  We have around 400 villas (between one and four bedrooms) and around 90 private homes (between three and eight bedrooms).  Rates were kept at our normal summer levels.  Nothing was jacked up.  There are other villa units on the island rented by Pam Harrington Exclusives, ResortQuest, etc.  Those were going for about three times their normal levels.  Plus, a lot of the owners used their own properties.  Hence, we had to put the media up in downtown hotels...  Early shuttles took about 65 minutes.  Those who slept in and came mid-morning took shuttles rides that lasted up to 2 1/2 hours...

[Martin Toal]

Watching on UK TV looked like a much better major than the US Open. Tough course which provided a stern test and punished bad shots but allowed players to score the odd birdie and had much less of the tiresome arbitrariness of Olympic.

No idea on the logistics, but I hope they can bring another major there sometime soon.

When the British Seniors Open was at RCD, Palmer stayed at Turnberry and helicoptered in.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

Do you feel that any of the courses at Bandon could host a PGA ?

Would added length be necessary ?

Would added length be feasable ?

Patrick:

I think that Old Macdonald or Bandon Dunes could host the PGA Championship.  It would be harder on the other two courses because it would be much harder to get the galleries around [if there were any!].

Bandon Dunes was built at almost 7,300 yards -- they've abandoned some of those tees, but if they reinstated them all they wouldn't need much more.  Old Macdonald is a little over 7,000, and there are a few flat places further back that we haven't mentioned to anyone.  There's plenty of room there if desired.  But, with the afternoon winds common to Bandon in August, I don't think either course would need much more length.  (See last Friday's scores at Kiawah for an idea of what happens to good players in the wind.)

Just yesterday I watched a field full of great players tackle our little old public course in Colorado (including a few who will be on Tour by the time your hypothetical PGA rolls around).  I've got a pretty good idea what they can do, and as usual, it was nice to see some of the shorter holes give them fits.  The question is whether the winning score matters much to tournament selection people -- and if so, why?

[Ted Cahill]

I want to see the PGA Champ return to Kiawah.  I am curious how the logistics at Kiwah are any more difficult than Pebble Beach?  I volunteered at the 2010 US Open and was amazed that they could bus the tens of thousands of spectators into Del Monte forest on little 2 lane 17 mile dr.  It works at PB- why not Kiwah?

[Jay Flemma]

Absolutely. A great seaside Pete Dye course that features a ton of risk reward and sits in a beautiful setting that produces a worthy Champion...sounds like a nice host to me.

The fact that the Golf media is complaining about long commutes to the golf course, and that that is somehow supposed to hamper the course's chances of hosting further tournaments, is beyond dumb. I know for a fact that there were plenty of opportunities to rent condos or rooms on Kiawah and Seabrook islands.

If anything we should applaud Kiawah and the PGA for hosting a championship on a unique & interesting site, and making a sacrifice in ticket sales to do so. Of course no one here will, but I'm sure it'll happen next year when the USGA goes to Merion.

Besides, what is the other option? A return trip to Atlanta Athletic?  

The media is simply trying to do their job.  Our time is our most valuable asset and a 2-1/2 commute form the  media hotel - where the PGA sets us up to stay - a 2-1/2 hr commute from the hotel to the course is a waste of it. A brutal waste of it.

[Jay Flemma]

In 2019, it will be 21 years since the PGA of America hosted the Championship on the West Coast, which makes no sense.

If the USGA and Mike Davis don't want Torrey Pines, the PGA should jump on it.

Or if everyone involved is willing to accept the logistics issue at Kiawah, then Bandon would be a perfect West Coast counterpart.

Geoff Ogilvy said the same thing.  He said if he had his druthers, they'd play Pasatiempo!  Mark Bourgeoise, I'd choose Riviera in a heartbeat.  

Majors are made for TV events. That course fits the bill in every way. Give the media some cheese with their whine!

How is the weather in June?  That is a US Open course!  

Another PGA?  Another Ryder Cup?  Absolutely. Slam dunk, even if the scribblers have to drive 3 hours a day.

Uhh...Golf Channel guys and other TV folks were on those buses too, Terry.  Many TV peeps had the commute too.  Not everyone stayed in compounds or 10,000 USD villas.

To whoever asked about Whistling, I had the best place possible for WS - I stayed with Dick Daley:) We had a ball.  And I was able to drive my car right to the entrance of the tournament - no buss ride! Wonderfully convenient.  I even stopped every day at the kids' lemonade and cookie stand which was about a mile from the course.