[Wyatt Halliday]

Watching some old President's Cup footage and wondering if Royal Melbourne (Composite, of course) is the answer. NGLA seems to be the only serious competition I can think of.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Merion and Engineers are easily in the mix

[Sam Morrow]

Isn't the answer to something like this usually the Old Course?

[Wyatt Halliday]

Sam,

Is it though? Tough for me to say without having played it, but it seems as though that is the standard default answer.

RMD,

Merion I can see, didn't realize Engineers contained that level of greatness in its shorter fours.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wyatt,

Under what yardage do you deem a hole "short" ?

And, from the members or the back tees ?

Many courses have added back tees in recent years, transforming short par 4's to medium to long par 4's.

NGLA only has four (4) short par 4's.  #'s 1, 2, 14 and 17.

GCGC also has four (4).   #'s 1, 5, 9 and 14.

Oakmont has four (4)     #'s 2, 5, 11 and 17.

Newport ?
Maidstone ?
The Creek ?
Piping Rock ?

[Jason Thurman]

There seem to be a lot of very good courses with par 4s that are, by and large, short. What about a place like Eastward Ho?

[Sam Morrow]

Sam,

Is it though? Tough for me to say without having played it, but it seems as though that is the standard default answer.

RMD,

Merion I can see, didn't realize Engineers contained that level of greatness in its shorter fours.

I haven't played it either but it was the first to come to mind, actually the first 3 I thought of are courses I've never played, Old Course, Merion, and NGLA.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Pat,

Without getting into the technology debate for the umpteenth time, I'm comfortable defining it as a hole where there is at least some decision to made from the tee. I would also say the question regards holes where if you had a good day driving the golf ball (with a driver, no less), there are several opportunities to approach with less than say an 8-iron.

I'm just really enamored with what I've seen during this footage and can't remember this topic on the board over the past several years.

[Brent Carlson]

Pacific Dunes deserves to be mentioned.  6 and 16 are amazing.

[Ben Sims]

Wyatt,

Pat does have a point.  Where is the threshold crossed?  I have played golf with you many times.  When you and I are having good days off the tee, a driver-8iron could be a 430yd hole.  I could make a strong argument in favor of NGLA though.  1, 2, 10, 11, 14, 15, 17 were all attacked with clubs much shorter than an 8-iron the day we played.  And they are all great holes.

[Mark Pearce]

The Old Course isn't in this conversation.  Elie has a better set of short par 4s than TOC.  TOC  a great course but it isn't the short par 4s that make it so.

[David_Elvins]

8 iron seems like a very high threshold for a short par 4. 

I would have thought drivable or drive and pitch would have been the traditional definition. 

Barnbougle Dunes has 4 genuine world class par 4s under 350 yards and would get my vote. 

Royal Melbourne composite has 3 world class holes under 350 yards and would come awfully close. 

[David_Elvins]

Merion

Robert,

How many of the short 4s at Merion are world class?  The 7th green is world class and the 11th green is iconic but other than that, what do they offer?  I would have thought temptation or the option of hitting driver was a pre-requisite to a really good short 4.  There is little temptation to hit driver on 1, 7, 8, 10, 11, or 12 at Merion. 

[John Kirk]

In my life, Ballyneal has the best set.  Sand Hills has back to back stunners.  After that, Merion.

[Matthew Mollica]

8 iron seems like a very high threshold for a short par 4. 

I would have thought drivable or drive and pitch would have been the traditional definition. 

Barnbougle Dunes has 4 genuine world class par 4s under 350 yards and would get my vote. 

Royal Melbourne composite has 3 world class holes under 350 yards and would come awfully close. 

+1 on all points Mr Elvins. Barnbougle does it for mine. 3,4,12 and 15 are all brilliant.

[Matthew MacKay]

I'll add a vote for Elie...at least a handful of excellent shorter 4's with great greens.

Stateside, Eastward Ho! is chock full of good ones as even a few of the longer 4's (yardage wise) are effectively made shorter by the topography.

Here in Canada, I don't think any course touches Scarboro for good short 4's...3,7,15,16 are all excellent and very different.

[Ronald Montesano]

This is one of those instances in which this free thinker metamorphoses into a bean counter. There needs to be a parameter established at the high end, and 8-iron is too high. If you need more than a wedge coming in, it's not a short par four to me.

Next parameter is, what does "temptation of hitting driver" mean? To me, this is the prescient and critical element of the entire notion-question. Wrapped in its swaddling clothes are, what tempts you to hit driver and what serves as a a blockade to the driver's success? Whether you miss the driver or nail it on the metaphoric screws, there's no guarantee that you'll reach the promised land, so what's the punitive element? Does the extremeness of the punitive element define/help define the greatness of the short hole?

I'm certain there's more to this, as we're not merely speaking of one hole, but of a "collection" of short par four holes within one isolated course.

[Fergal OLeary]

Swinley Forest in England. You don't need a driver at all on this Colt masterpiece, and given that it's eternally in the World Top 100, one could argue that it therefore has the greatest collection of short par 3s, par 4s and par 5s!

[Ian Andrew]

The stretch starting midway through the front nine at The Island Club is pretty special.

Another lesser known is Woodlands, it has a great set of short fours


I have to agree with the previous selections of Royal Melbourne and Merion too

[Frank M]

My vote is Eastward Ho! From the get go there are some awesome par 4s both short and long (2,3,6,8,9 etc.). I actually don't think there is a weak par 4 really.

Golf doesn't get much better than that. I can't make the GCA Tournament invitation at Eastward this year, but I constantly want to go back. It is my "if only one course the rest of your life" course.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Wyatt + Ben
What do you consider short 4s at Wolf Point?

10, 1, 4, 16, 18, 7

While I don't think they are the best short 4s on their own, they are great in totality
Interesting greens with varied biases
Strategy changes significantly with local winds
Random bunker locations
There are 6 of them!?!

Cheers

[Bill_McBride]

Wyatt + Ben
What do you consider short 4s at Wolf Point?

10, 1, 4, 16, 18, 7

While I don't think they are the best short 4s on their own, they are great in totality
Interesting greens with varied biases
Strategy changes significantly with local winds
Random bunker locations
There are 6 of them!?!

Cheers

I don't recall either 16 or 18 as short par 4s.  You guys been playing the red tees?

[Will Lozier]

Cypress Point

[Jim Sherma]

How many short par fours on classic coursed were designed as such? Was Merion or NGLA thought of as a collection of short holes 50 years ago? Should architectural intent play into this? Or simply what the equipment has forced strategy to evolve into? I am unsure, but any conversation like this has to address it up front.

[John Ezekowitz]

Merion

Robert,

How many of the short 4s at Merion are world class?  The 7th green is world class and the 11th green is iconic but other than that, what do they offer?  I would have thought temptation or the option of hitting driver was a pre-requisite to a really good short 4.  There is little temptation to hit driver on 1, 7, 8, 10, 11, or 12 at Merion. 

Given my experience, I've got to disagree on the strategy on 10 and 12. On 10, a well struck driver opens up a pitch shot up the throat of the green that otherwise must be approached on a much more difficult diagonal angle. On 12, a cut driver, even if it ends up in the left rough, leaves a wedge in to a green that is far easier to approach from the right and with a more lofted club.

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