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Mark Saltzman

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In a city that receives far from enough attention for its quality of golf, CC of Rochester may be the best of the bunch.  In the early 2000s Gil Hanse was brought in to restore the golf course and his work is exceptionally well done.  For the GCA nerd, CC of Rochester is a treat.  The routing is clever, making maximum use of the terrain on the western portion of the property.  Bunkers are simple, strategic and varied; everything from top shot bunkers, penal bunkering, staggered bunkers, pot bunkers and bunkers so deep you may never get out!

I have included three aerials, one from 1952, one from 2002 and one from 2006 (to show the work done in the Hanse restoration).

It seems that some time between 1952 and 1969 three holes were lost on the eastern portion of the property to build a driving range, and three holes were added over some of the most dramatic terrain on the course on the western portion.  In a million years I could not have picked out the three new holes as non-Ross holes.  They are exceptionally well done, and dare I say, among the best holes on the course.  2 of the 3 holes lost from the original course can still be played in modified form as practice holes.


1952




2002




2006




Scorecard Information





The view from the first tee lets one know that this is going to be a fun day.  A short par-4 played uphill and to a fairway with plenty of leftward tilt.  Staggered bunkering here is very effective and makes the golfer start thinking from the get-go.




While some may choose to thread the needle, laying back to 120 yards will leave the golfer with a much wider landing area.




Like many approaches at CCR, the approach to the 1st begs for the ground game as a running shot from right-to-left will work well into this punchbowl green.




Effective use of the top-shot bunker at the mid-length par-5 2nd, which plays downhill and requires a tee shot flirting with the bunkering to stay in this tilted fairway.




A creek (which will be seen time and again) cuts across the 2nd some 30 yards short of the green, demanding an aerial approach.




An excellent short-4 at the 3rd played over some severe terrain.  Again the needle can be threaded though many will be well-served playing short of the trouble, though the approach will be completely blind from there.




The green at the 3rd is large and severely undulating.  Again, the running approach is an option.




The 4th is a monstrous 227 yard par-3 to a seemingly (and actually) tiny green.




Blind from the tee is a creek cutting across the 4th.




The green slides around to the left offering a very difficult back-pin position, especially because of the knob that protects that side of the green.




The first of the non-Ross holes and it's a good one; the 5th is my favorite hole on the course.  The tee shot is near completely blind (time to start getting used to that) and played to a fairway that tilts sharply to the right down to the creek.  The golfer's first clear look at this snaking par-4.




If the golfer manages to keep his ball on the left portion of the fairway he has a much preferred angle of approach into the green.




As seen from the 6th tee, the 5th green is protected short and left by a fairway run-off area that will reject slightly mis-played shots.  




Another blind tee shot gives way to a fairway that moves right but tilts left and tumbles down to a lower landing area that can only be reached by the bombers.






As seen from behind, the approach to the 6th is played over a severe false-front to a very narrow and wide green that unlike many of the other greens at CCR has back-to-front tilt and not much else.




The 7th is a pretty par-3 with the creek winding along the left side of the hole (though not really in play).




The 8th is the first of a string of unforgiving par-4s.  Another uphill tee shot, this one played to a fairway with a trio of bunkers set into the hill and moving diagonally across the fairway.




Another approach where a left-moving ground approach is ideal.  Missing in the right bunker is forgivable (and recoverable) but the bunker on the left is plain nasty.




Something about the 9th feels off to me, and it is clear that the current hole is not as it was originally laid out.  

Only the peak of this deep fairway bunker can be seen on this mostly blind tee shot.
 



Though this bunker makes for an intimidating approach...




There is quite a bit of room over it and a clever golfer can still have his ball land some 30 yards short of the green.




The 10th is a wild and massive par-5 at 570 yards.  The land first moves left and so does the hole, requiring the golfer to flirt with these bunkers to find the fairway.




The land on the  second half of the hole moves right.  A nest of bunkers on the left 120-150 yards short of the green must be avoided to leave this approach into the left-to-right sloped 10th green.




The 11th is a simple par-3.




The 12th and 13th are routed back-and-forth, though somehow both have uphill and partially blind tee shots.  At the 12th the land tilts to the right and the golfer would be well-served to run his ball onto the green from the left.




This kicker left of the green can be used to help nudge the ball onto the green, though the golfer that misses left is in trouble.




The approach to the very long par-4 13th, like at the 9th, is played over a cleverly placed cross-bunker.




The 181 yard par-3 14th is a wonderful golf hole.  A cross-bunker messes with the golfer's depth perception, the last thing the golfer needs with the trouble lurking long...




in the form of a road, a rock wall and out-of-bounds!




Oh, and there's a nest of bunkers left and water to the right!




The first real chance at birdie in a long while, the 15th is a very short and reachable par-5.  The LZ is pinched at about 260 yards from the back tee by some of the deepest fairway bunkers on the golf course.  From what I can tell, all of the bunkers along the left side of this hole were a part of the Hanse restoration.




Though many golfers will be tempted to reach this hole in two, out-of-bounds to the left and this dropoff/bunkering combo right of the green are a near perfect penalty for a mis-played shot.






A very interesting green.  Narrow in the front and widening in the rear.  Huge slopes at the back portion of the green will contain any shots just a little long and will severely penalize any that end up over the green.





It is some 150 yards from the 15th green to the 16th tee.  Along the way the golfer passes the graveyard of what I can only presume was once the 16th.  The current 16th is a Ross 'short' though at 169 yards it really isn't that short!  There is no room to miss here as the small green is protected by a false-front, bunkers right, left and back-left and a steep fall-off over the green.




The 17th is a simple mid-length par-4.  It seems the original tee was located much nearer the road that separates the current 16th and 17th holes and losing a tee shot over the boundary must have been a real risk.




Playing parallel to the 17th the 18th is a dogleg par-4  that returns the golfer to the clubhouse.  Once again, a false-front catch shots just short though the ground-game option is available and perhaps preferred.
 





The 18th green connects with the practice green and is the most rippled greens (small internal contours) on the course.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 10:18:12 PM by Mark Saltzman »

Will Lozier

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 10:21:47 PM »
Mark,

Thanks for the EXCELLENT tour!  CCR looks absolutely outstanding, a course where one could not only be content to be confined forever, but giddy!  Except for that awful pond and cart path on #11!  Also, a little tough to accept #15 as a par-5 even with the uphill routing and OOB.   Might it be better as a par-4 making for a brutal par-69.  Or, is there room to take the tee back say 20 yards?  If I've got my bearings straight - and it is a tough course to see the routing from an aerial perspective - there is.

Cheers
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 10:26:29 PM by Will Lozier »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2012, 10:34:01 PM »
Hoping that JNC will chime in with his perspective. I believe that he knows this course nearly as well as he knows Oak Hill West.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Dan Herrmann

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2012, 09:01:05 AM »
I've driven past the entrance probably 100 times, and had no appreciation for the wonderful course within.  Thanks for posting the photos!

Tim Gavrich

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2012, 09:46:27 AM »
The last 60 yards or so of that short par 5 15th remind me greatly of the same at the 16th at Ross' (mostly) Hartford GC a few hours south and east of CC of R. Course looks awesome; thanks!
Senior Writer, GolfPass

John Blain

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 10:37:00 AM »
Mark-

Thanks for the pics, I have played many, many rounds at CCR over the years and it is one of my favorite places to play golf. A nice mix of holes, easily walkable with great par threes and three risk/reward par fives. Not to mention it is one of the longest 6600 yard par 70 courses you will ever play. Gil did a nice job with the restoration removing close to 900 trees, a complete bunker renovation and building a new 18th green which is 40-50 yards closer to the clubhouse than where the old 18th green was located.

I am curious, however, that your favorite hole (#5) on a Ross course was actually designed by RTJ, Sr.! Gil did a nice job trying to "fix" that hole. He removed numerous (almost all of them) trees on the left side and actually wanted to move the green 30 yards to the left but the membership resisted. It's a much better hole now than it has ever been but do you really think it's better than #3, #8, #9, or #13?

Regarding #7, trust me when I tell you that the creek on the left does in fact come into play. In fact, I have seen shots hit the extreme left side of the green and run right into the the creek! I believe I have even done it myself. There are plans to move that tee behind the sixth green so the tee shot would carry the creek. It is part of Gil's plan and I think it will get done over the next couple of years. I'm partial to that hole because I made first hole-in-one on that hole in the 1991 RDGA championship (sorry, I needed to get that in there!).
The club has a ton of history with Walter Hagen, Sam Urzetta, Don Allen, etc. It has also hosted a pair of U.S. Women's Opens.


Thanks again for the pics, good stuff.

Mike Hendren

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 10:49:50 AM »
Mark, wonderful tour.  I know such presentations take a lot of time and effort and I really appreciate it.   I absolutely adore the string of fairway bunkers at the 8th -reminds me of the 13th at Holston Hills.

This NY thing is getting a little old, however.  I fully expect one of you guys to unearth the Holy Grail any day now.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Carl Nichols

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 11:41:34 AM »
Mark:
Thank again for another great photo tour.  If you had to split ten rounds between Rochester and Old Town Club [both of which look terrific], how would you split them?

Dan Herrmann

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 03:01:37 PM »
How many trees were removed during Hanse's work?

Carl Nichols

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2012, 03:14:49 PM »
How many trees were removed during Hanse's work?

Dan:
JPBlain's post above says "close to 900." 

JNC Lyon

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2012, 05:46:49 PM »
Great tour, Mark.  I've gotten to know CC of Rochester very well over the past 9 years, when I worked in the barroom, caddied, and played CCR as our high school's home course.  It's a tremendous golf course, and it has transformed from a mediocre golf course because of Gil Hanse, as well as the vision of a few dedicated members.  A few comments, and then fire away with questions if you like.

Mark, I was surprised to see that 5 was your favorite hole.  It's usually one of the least favorite holes among members and locals (who, granted, usually know nothing).  The tee shot is a bit awkward, running through a chute of trees at the beginning, and with a miss to the right usually being unplayable.  However, I still think this is a decent par four.  The hole improved vastly a couple years ago, when they took out a thicket of pines down the left side.  Now there is some forgiveness off the tee, as well as some vision of how to play the hole.  The green is a neat one, and Hanse made it special by cutting the chipping area left (they were originally bunkers on both sides of the green, and the same was true on 6 and 7.

Will, trust me 15 is a fine par five at 460.  Sure, a few long hitters eat it up in the invitational during the year, but even most scratch golfers are hitting long irons and woods in for the second shot.  The green is absolutely diabolical, both in its surrounds and its internal contours.  The hole location shown in Mark's picture is one of the most fearsome on the green.  4 there is an excellent score.

Favorite holes: 3, 8-10, 12, and 15.  1 has also grown on me as a starting hole.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Keith OHalloran

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2012, 05:56:45 PM »
JNC,
Can you divide ten rounds between OHW, Monroe and CCR? I was surprised to hear what Mark came up with and I am interested in your choices.

JNC Lyon

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2012, 06:07:59 PM »
JNC,
Can you divide ten rounds between OHW, Monroe and CCR? I was surprised to hear what Mark came up with and I am interested in your choices.

4 OHW, 3 CCR, 3 Monroe.  They are all very close.  If OHW had the proper restoration work done, it would separate itself from the pack.  Oak Hill West has the best set of greens, as well as the best routing.  Monroe has the best land, and the best bunkering as well.  CC of Rochester has the best "best" holes, but it might have the worst "worst holes as well.  Oak Hill has the best par threes, Monroe has the best par fours, and CCR has the best  par fives.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

John Foley

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 06:47:02 PM »
JNC,
Can you divide ten rounds between OHW, Monroe and CCR? I was surprised to hear what Mark came up with and I am interested in your choices.

CC of Rochester has the best "best" holes

What do you think of 13-15 at Oak Hill West? For me it's the best three hole stretch in Western NY.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Dan Byrnes

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 09:16:07 PM »
I have to get out to CCR to play.  Need a Rochester trip in general.

What about. Brook Lea CC?  A Ross course as well.

http://www.brookleacc.com/

Dan

JNC Lyon

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2012, 09:53:42 PM »
I have to get out to CCR to play.  Need a Rochester trip in general.

What about. Brook Lea CC?  A Ross course as well.

http://www.brookleacc.com/

Dan

I like Brook Lea a lot as well.  It's the 6th best Ross course in Rochester, but that doesn't mean it's not a solid layout.  It has a great set of par fives, and 9 and 18 are both excellent par threes.  It has a whirlwind stretch from 7 to 13 (short par five, short par four four, par three, short five, short five, short three, long four).  17 is a great bunkerless par four. A very neat golf course.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mark Saltzman

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2012, 11:05:40 PM »
Mark,

Thanks for the EXCELLENT tour!  CCR looks absolutely outstanding, a course where one could not only be content to be confined forever, but giddy!  Except for that awful pond and cart path on #11!  Also, a little tough to accept #15 as a par-5 even with the uphill routing and OOB.   Might it be better as a par-4 making for a brutal par-69.  Or, is there room to take the tee back say 20 yards?  If I've got my bearings straight - and it is a tough course to see the routing from an aerial perspective - there is.

Cheers

Will, there's not much room to move the tee back as I think this is something of a high-traffic area and the snack bar is not too far behind that tee.

Anyways, I think the hole works perfectly as is, no need to make it a par-4.  I suppose the bombers may have their way with the hole, but heaven help them if they miss the green.  One of those holes that makes you salivate on the tee and then have you scratching your head after you've made 6 on a 460 yard par-5.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2012, 11:08:12 PM »
Mark-

Thanks for the pics, I have played many, many rounds at CCR over the years and it is one of my favorite places to play golf. A nice mix of holes, easily walkable with great par threes and three risk/reward par fives. Not to mention it is one of the longest 6600 yard par 70 courses you will ever play. Gil did a nice job with the restoration removing close to 900 trees, a complete bunker renovation and building a new 18th green which is 40-50 yards closer to the clubhouse than where the old 18th green was located.

I am curious, however, that your favorite hole (#5) on a Ross course was actually designed by RTJ, Sr.! Gil did a nice job trying to "fix" that hole. He removed numerous (almost all of them) trees on the left side and actually wanted to move the green 30 yards to the left but the membership resisted. It's a much better hole now than it has ever been but do you really think it's better than #3, #8, #9, or #13?

Regarding #7, trust me when I tell you that the creek on the left does in fact come into play. In fact, I have seen shots hit the extreme left side of the green and run right into the the creek! I believe I have even done it myself. There are plans to move that tee behind the sixth green so the tee shot would carry the creek. It is part of Gil's plan and I think it will get done over the next couple of years. I'm partial to that hole because I made first hole-in-one on that hole in the 1991 RDGA championship (sorry, I needed to get that in there!).
The club has a ton of history with Walter Hagen, Sam Urzetta, Don Allen, etc. It has also hosted a pair of U.S. Women's Opens.


Thanks again for the pics, good stuff.

JP, had I known 5 was an RTJ hole I would not have declared it my favourite  ;D.

As I said in my review I would never have guessed that any of the three added holes were not original.  They make terrific use of the land and have simple and strategic bunkering.  I really like them all! 

On 7 I had a right pin so that water was not really a consideration, even from about 210 yards.  Just goes to show the limitations of only seeing a course once.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2012, 11:12:11 PM »
Mark:
Thank again for another great photo tour.  If you had to split ten rounds between Rochester and Old Town Club [both of which look terrific], how would you split them?

Carl, CCR is a very good and underrated golf course with some excellent short par-4s, a clever routing over some interesting terrain and an average set of Ross greens.  Old Town is one of the all-time great routings I've seen and has perhaps the best set of greens I've been privileged to play.  OTC 9 - CCR 1

Philip Caccamise

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2012, 12:28:15 AM »

4 OHW, 3 CCR, 3 Monroe.  They are all very close.  If OHW had the proper restoration work done, it would separate itself from the pack.  Oak Hill West has the best set of greens, as well as the best routing.  Monroe has the best land, and the best bunkering as well.  CC of Rochester has the best "best" holes, but it might have the worst "worst holes as well.  Oak Hill has the best par threes, Monroe has the best par fours, and CCR has the best  par fives.

I'd do it the same way- 4-3-3 (or 4-3-2 and the last one at the East course.  ;D)


What do you think of 13-15 at Oak Hill West? For me it's the best three hole stretch in Western NY.

Really? I hate the 14th. Maybe because it was always in my head. So many bad swings on that hole- I practically hit McDonalds every third round. I love the rest of the back 9...

John Foley

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Re: CC of Rochester (Donald Ross w/ Hanse Restoration) - A Photo Tour
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2012, 09:19:03 AM »

What do you think of 13-15 at Oak Hill West? For me it's the best three hole stretch in Western NY.

Really? I hate the 14th. Maybe because it was always in my head. So many bad swings on that hole- I practically hit McDonalds every third round. I love the rest of the back 9...

Doesn't that make it great? It gets in your head? You are supposed to get a breather between two great long par 4's but the par 3 with everything right there in front of you is so exacting. One bad swing and there it goes! Like I said - I LOVE that 3 hole strech.
Integrity in the moment of choice

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