[Peter Pallotta]

On the current "how fun is PV" thread, Ted Sturges posted something I thought very well written and insightful:

"I thought it was great fun playing there. Though it is hard to shoot a "good" score, the driving corridors are very wide. I play to a 6 and though I never broke 80, I played 3 rounds during a weekend visit and used the same golf ball for all 54 holes (something my friend Ward above would likely NEVER do at Victoria National). There are several "thrilling" shots to hit, being there is a buzz, and for a student of golf course architecture, visiting that place is a graduate level course for sure. I rate the experience a "10"."

What struck me most was that last line (which I've bolded), and how simply and deftly he side-stepped our endless (and to me almost mind--numbing) preoccupation with best of lists and top whatever formulations.  Instead of focussing on some pseudo-objective ranking, he instead shares a subjective experience that he rates very highly.

I've read all the threads and all the lists that put PV at or near the top of great golf courses; and yet, if I was given the chance to play every great course in America, I would have told you yesterday that PV wouldn't be amongst the first 10 or even 20 that I'd play.  Today, however, after Ted's post, I find myself re-considering that, and would put PV well up there. (No jokes please: I'm well aware that I have as little chance today as I did yesterday of playing any of the greats, and believe me, I am fine with that).

In short, I just found it interesting that it was Ted's upfront and direct appeal to subjective experience that carried for me far more weight than all the "math" (rankings) in the world.

Peter

[Michael George]

Peter:

I have posted several times about rating the "experience".   While I find it possible to just rate a golf course, I think it totally presents an incomplete picture.  The staff, your room, your meals, the facilities, the maintenance, the vibe of the place -- all matter.  

To be clear, "experience" does not equate to opulence.  The experience can be extermely basic, but actually enhance the golf.  Just look at The Dunes Club - great 9 hole course, but the experience of pulling into a gravel road between a chain linked fence with only a street sign from the road, getting to the clubhouse that is certainly less than 1000 square feet, grabbing beers out of the fridge, the club changing the holes between 9s, the pro being above a 20 handicap - it is priceless ... it was absolutely awesome for me and it is almost impossible for me to just rank the course because of it.

Another example is Laurel Valley.  I like the course, but it is not jaw dropping.  However, the experience around it is really special.  Cabins are incredible, buffet for lunch is the best that I have ever had, range is a nice walk to a quite area in the trees.  Just a great place.  That great experience certainly makes me want to go back more than just for another round.

[Peter Pallotta]

Michael - thanks, good post, nicely put. I wouldn't disagree with anything you wrote, but I'd add that my "subjective experience" of a golf course like Notts or Plainfield might well be "rated a 10", and that said rating would be, in some fundamental sense, more meaningful (even "truer") than any ranking/list of the top ten courses in the world or even of TD's list of "10s".  

But at any rate, Ted said it all better than I can/did.  I wanted to start a thread highlighting his post. Now I'm just repeating myself and one of my pet beliefs, i.e. that golf is the only art-craft that allows/requires the full participation (body, mind, spirit) of the "audience"/golfer - and so is most conducive to the "subjective experience".

Peter

[Dan Kelly]

Instead of focussing on some pseudo-objective ranking, he instead shares a subjective experience that he rates very highly.

Peter --

This is how everyone in the world (other than golf-magazine editors) "rates" golf courses. No?

Dan

[Stephen Davis]

I think this is a great thread and Michael, I think you said something very important here

"To be clear, "experience" does not equate to opulence.

I would rate my experience at Ballyneal a definite 10! Anyone who has been there knows that it is not flashy, not over the top or anything. There is an amazing golf course, that is a blast to play. Fantastic caddies, which just add to the experience. Great food, served in a basic restuarant. And it has the only Bocce Ball course I have ever played on at a golf course. All of these things made the day I spent there a 10! I could say many of the same things about the Bandon courses (except the Bocce ball part )Often times it is the extra things that make an experience truly memorable.

[William_G]

I like it!

Would the Fun list change much if considered as experiences?

So now Golfweek can have a list...Top 50 "Best Golf Experiences"

[Richard Choi]

The problem with "subjective experience" is that it is strongly influenced by the value of the experience.

A person tasting a $100/bottle wine is going to get more enjoyment out of that bottle than tasting a $10/bottle wine. EVEN WHEN THEY ARE EXACTLY THE SAME WINE! (scientifically tested fact)

A person experiencing an ULTRA EXCLUSIVE club like Pine Valley is going to feel enormous amount of pleasure. For nothing more than knowing how hard it is to play there. Which means, for geeks like us, we will get a lot of additional pleasure from playing there while someone who is not well versed in golf course architecture and has no idea how exclusive PV is, may wonder what all the fuss is about.

If you really want to rate an experience properly, you need to fight that natural tendency and value things for what they really are, not what you feel they are.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Which means, for geeks like us, we will get a lot of additional pleasure from playing there while someone who is not well versed in golf course architecture and has no idea how exclusive PV is, may wonder what all the fuss is about.

Unless they are blind no one goes to Pine Valley and leaves wondering what all the fuss is about.

[Peter Pallotta]

Instead of focussing on some pseudo-objective ranking, he instead shares a subjective experience that he rates very highly.

Peter --

This is how everyone in the world (other than golf-magazine editors) "rates" golf courses. No?

Dan

Dan - Yes. But it seems to me that the (or "a") dominant voice in the marketplace, and even (poor us) in the realm of amateur discussion and in the forums of ideas/ideals is that of said golf-magazine editors and their minions .  I don't think there's anything wrong with (and maybe much good in) trying to add a corrective/balancing influence to the discussions/the marketplace.

Peter

[Bob_Huntley]

Peter,

Like Ted, I think of Pine Valley as a ten, the same as do listening to Deborah York singing Vivaldi's 'Nulla in mundo pax sincera'. Both are masterpieces but there is not much fun about either. There is however a feeling of exilaration, joy and appreciation that there are things perfect in this world.

Bob

[Terry Lavin]

Sometimes, the experience transcends the golf course. The combination of the journey, the vibe, the people and the hospitality combine to vault the course into a different stratosphere. Dismal River is such a place. Pinehurst also satisfies this ineffable feeling that elevates the sporting aspect of the game into something more felt than played, more experienced than merely taking a course off the list. Bandon supplies the sort of semi-mystical sense that contributes to the experience factor. Finally, to state the obvious, the Monterey Peninsula has every conceivable element to transmute rounds of golf into indelible life moments.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have said for years that if I had to join one course it would be Musgrove Mill.  As an out of state member I get there two or three times a year.  I either stay in the clubhouse or in one of the cabins.  I park my car and never leave.  The course is, in my opinion, Palmer's best.  The staff is terrific.  Jeff Tallman, the head pro, is one of the really great guys and makes everyone feel welcome.  The food is first rate and the members are single digit players and live and eat golf.  They are fiercely loyal to the club and some have moved there just because of the club.  I get to a lot of places.  Many have some of the same qualities as MM.  I have felt similar things at Ballyhack, Ballyneal, Dismal River, Sand Hills, and other national type clubs.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Peter,

Very nice post. What came to mind for me wasn't cabins and such but the subjective experience of playing the course. The two places that came to mind immediately for me were TOC and Woking.

Those experiences felt almost like conversations across the ages. Kind of like those ol' Winnie the Pooh shows by Disney, where the pages of the book came to life.

[Bart Bradley]

Peter:

I am just not certain.

I do think that you can have a 10 experience and the course be flawed.  What if the service is great, the company fantastic, the food and beverage wonderful, but the course is good but not great.  I would rate that experience as a 10 but I would not rate the golf course as a 10.  I am certain that the example of Pine Valley does not apply to this line of argument, as I am sure that the course lives up to the rest of the experience.

I can tell you that I visited a national club and returned home saying that the experience was an 8 but the course a 5.  Can't we, as those you study and appreciate architecture, seperate the experience and the quality of the architecture?

I once played a course overseas with the architect.  Afterwords, I had a great dinner and drinks with him and listened to his stories and philosophy.  It was a fun, great day.  But the course was miserable architecture.

I don't think experience and ratings are necessarily the same, not in the least.

Bart

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks very much, gents. I really do like and appreciate these kinds of posts.

Mark - while thinking of the experience as including lodging and food and scenery is completely legitimate, I too was thinking of the golf itself, the course itself. "A conversation across the ages" is a lovely metaphor.

Bart - I understand what you mean, and you may be right; but as I said to Mark, my idea was that the course itself, experienced subjectively, can be "rated" a 10 even if (objectively) the consensus or informed opinion "ranks" it a 5.   

Terry, Tommy - you both speak of "feeling" -- and as I get older, this old philosophy grad feels more and more sure that our "feelings" contain wisdoms and truths that the intellect/logical mind can never know.

Bob - your second line was just perfect, and for me speaks to one of the very key parts of what makes an experience rate so highly:"There is however a feeling of exilaration, joy and appreciation that there are things perfect in this world."  Reminds me of the William Blake line (paraphrasing): if the doors of perception were wiped clean, we would see things are they really are - infinite. 

Peter
 

[Sean Leary]

Which means, for geeks like us, we will get a lot of additional pleasure from playing there while someone who is not well versed in golf course architecture and has no idea how exclusive PV is, may wonder what all the fuss is about.

Unless they are blind no one goes to Pine Valley and leaves wondering what all the fuss is about.

Kyle I agree. But would you say the same about Merion?

[Ronald Montesano]

The experience at Tam O'Shanter was real and spectacular...

[ward peyronnin]

I like the direction of this thread....some of us on this site are about winning a debate or laying our relative golf sophistication out.

One of my other "experience" ratings is " I could play this course everyday"  . I am not sure I could get to that point with PV even tho I am at a 4.2 index and i really can't imagine a 20 index goin to that place either.

That doesn't provide a ranking of greatness but it does speak to the quality of the experience and design

[Matthew Mollica]

Instead of focussing on some pseudo-objective ranking, he instead shares a subjective experience that he rates very highly.

Peter --

This is how everyone in the world (other than golf-magazine editors) "rates" golf courses. No?

Dan

I'm not sure most rate courses this way Dan. I suspect many would look purely at architecture, and view opinions on courses which incorporate additional issues as a little muddied. Yet, what Michael George says makes perfect sense -

While I find it possible to just rate a golf course, I think it totally presents an incomplete picture.  The staff, your room, your meals, the facilities, the maintenance, the vibe of the place -- all matter.  

To be clear, "experience" does not equate to opulence.  The experience can be extermely basic, but actually enhance the golf.  

MM

[Matthew Mollica]

Peter,

Like Ted, I think of Pine Valley as a ten, the same as do listening to Deborah York singing Vivaldi's 'Nulla in mundo pax sincera'. Both are masterpieces but there is not much fun about either. There is however a feeling of exilaration, joy and appreciation that there are things perfect in this world.

Bob

Nice post Bob.It reminded me of a quote I read a while back-

"The best courses will have a powerful, clear, passionate unity that taxes the mind and embraces the senses like a serious symphony or opera. The structure and detail can then form a lasting recognizable identity." Desmond Muirhead

[William_G]

So is it how you "experience" golf course architecture or how you "analyse" it??

I'm in the empirical camp while at the same time able to step back and analyse.

The $250 dollar bottle isn't necessarily better than the $35 bottle except maybe on the paper you get back with your credit card.

I love Lawsonia Links partly because it's not crowded unlike PB which is slow and crowded, and that is part of the experience.

How high a price would PB have to be to have be uncrowded and a better experience?

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,
Mark B. has put into words, more succinctly than I can, the thought that has been rumbling around in my brain (as I cleaned the pool then stained the decking after reading the initial post and responses!). I was thinking that Peter was alluding to the metaphysical aspect of the experience (as is his wont!) rather than a rating per se. This seems to be born out in his response to Mark.

"Rating the experience" in my book would have no connection to the amenities, food or even the interaction with staff. There are (or at least used to be) tiny courses in The Highlands and Islands where there was no interaction other than the golfer with the course (two shillings in the box) and the experience would rate very highly. In this sort of situation no prior experience, other than that one plays golf, would seem necessary to know that the experience is highly rated.

Cheers Colin

[Tom_Doak]

Gentlemen,
Mark B. has put into words, more succinctly than I can, the thought that has been rumbling around in my brain (as I cleaned the pool then stained the decking after reading the initial post and responses!). I was thinking that Peter was alluding to the metaphysical aspect of the experience (as is his wont!) rather than a rating per se. This seems to be born out in his response to Mark.

"Rating the experience" in my book would have no connection to the amenities, food or even the interaction with staff. There are (or at least used to be) tiny courses in The Highlands and Islands where there was no interaction other than the golfer with the course (two shillings in the box) and the experience would rate very highly. In this sort of situation no prior experience, other than that one plays golf, would seem necessary to know that the experience is highly rated.

Cheers Colin

I am not sure I even know what metaphysics are, but I think I can agree with Colin and with Mark here.  I think that the "experience" of what it's like to play a golf course and how it makes you feel are a big part of its appeal ... I might even say part of its design, because certainly design can influence the user emotionally.  But I agree that the people who include the food and the rooms and the staff in their assessment of the "experience" are missing the point entirely.  That stuff may have to do with you liking the place, but it doesn't have anything to do with the golf.

[Dan Herrmann]

Heck - I rate my 2 Crump Cup/1 Philly Open at Pine Valley as 10's.  And I didn't even play.

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