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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why flat works
« on: July 23, 2018, 07:29:18 AM »
 8)


For those who play at a high level nothing makes a shot easier than a backstop.  Rather than boring the flattish green can sometimes require the most skill to play as you must impart the spin needed to get it close or stop it near the hole. In a world of hard golf balls that go really far it is a design trick that to me is underused . We've all seen the pain that convex greens can impact and I'm fond of a flat one now and then .

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why flat works
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2018, 09:16:13 AM »
Agree with all, the last point most of all.


Everything in moderation, including moderation...

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why flat works
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2018, 09:20:42 AM »
Wouldn't an occasional front to back sloping green work even (moderately) better?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why flat works
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2018, 09:26:16 AM »

Archie,


What about the other 99% of golfers who support the course and need a backstop?  Agree it would have to be "now and then" use, but even on courses with one or two examples, I have seen master plans where the members want them removed.


In addition to the occasional Redan or reverse slope green (no more than once each per course, and always with room out front to run it up, I try to do a few things, such as vary the amount of back to front slope among greens so players need to judge each one as opposed to knowing they are "standard".  Also, design greens where part of it, usually the Sunday pin to tempt golfers more, has a steeper back stop where other parts don't.  The hope is golfers will understand the backstop defines which is the better side of the fw to play to, i.e., trying to create some strategy, not just difficulty for great players.


Raises the question (again) of should architects design a shot that can't be played least one way with the intended result of reaching the green?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why flat works
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2018, 12:23:11 PM »
 8)


Certainly Jeff B has built a lot more greens as I’m stuck on 19 but was playing the one at Greate Bay we built in 1998 (16) yesterday and hit it over the green. Had to flop it with very little slope to aid me . Was a pretty tough shot , got me thinking about flat.


Hey JV Evensky nice to hear from you ! I like front to back slopes , but flat in a few spots works well. Again it’s a design feature that is often under appreciated . Caught a lot of flack for the 18 th green at Twisted Dune because it wasn’t real “sexy”  but good luck getting it close if you need a birdie to win or tie .


Couple greens there I would redo and if I hit the lottery will do it for Eric Bergstol for treating me so well there !








Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why flat works
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2018, 10:15:50 PM »

Archie, I remember going just over the 11th at the Old Course and chipping down that what 10% slope? Was surprised I could hold the green.  Actually a lot of greens with backing mounds to slopes away to the front that are really difficult, too.  Would seem flat would not be as big a problem?  Or, just not sure of what you are driving at (yeah, the green stupid, I heard it after I wrote it.....) :)


I have surveyed quite a few greens over the years, and for average players, 1.33% up slope seems to be the minimum to keep them from rolling off the back of the green.  Just saying.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach