Kiawah Ocean Course - Raynor

[Tim Liddy]

The Dye - Raynor connection. How many template holes can you name?

[Ronald Montesano]

I'll take a look and let you know. Fairly confident that there is no "Short."

http://www.pga.com/pgachampionship/course/tour/1

If you watch the CGI video flyovers, you only have to watch the DiGiorno pizza commercial once.

[Ronald Montesano]

Is #5 Pete's tribute to #17 at Pebble Beach?

[PCCraig]

I'll take a look and let you know. Fairly confident that there is no "Short."

Take a closer look at #8.

[PCCraig]

The Dye - Raynor connection. How many template holes can you name?

Of the par 3's #5 could be a biarritz (long narrow green with front and back pins playing totally different), #8 is pretty close to a short hole, #14 is a pretty severe redan, and #17 would is nothing close to what Raynor would build.

[Howard Riefs]

#14 has Redan characteristics but isn't a true Redan. No kickplate or run-up option.

http://www.pga.com/pgachampionship/course/tour/14

[Anthony_Nysse]

I can remember playing golf with Jim Yonce, Superintendent at Yeaman's Hall in Charleston. We were walking off the 18th green at Long Cove and he turned around, looked down the fairway and said, "Pete Dye is a modern day Seth Raynor." If anyone course see the similarites, that's your man!

[PCCraig]

#14 has Redan characteristics but isn't a true Redan. No kickplate or run-up option.

http://www.pga.com/pgachampionship/course/tour/14

Howard,

I should of prefaced my comments above with "if you squint..."

[Josh Tarble]

#3 uses the tree to play with Alps like characteristics.

I'd say the most striking resemblance is in the steep bunker faces with sharp edges on multiple holes

[Ronald Montesano]

Guys, guys, guys...I thought, for one brief & hallucinogenic moment, that #8 could be a short. Then i saw all the grass...ALL THE GRASS in front. "kind of" doesn't cut it here; either it is or it isn't.

Now, argue my assertion that 5 is a tribute to Pebble's 17th...Pat, it can't be a Biarritz because it has a rise, not a dip, in the middle.

[David Stewart]

According to Ran's profile, the 8th has Reverse Redan characteristics.

[Josh Tarble]

I think this topic is really interesting.  I could see how Dye could have possibly used many templates on several of his courses, the just look so different that not many people could directly pull the inspiration. 

[Ronald Montesano]

If 8 is possessed of an elevated putting surface, with no kick plate, can it have Reverse Redan characteristics?

[David Stewart]

If 8 is possessed of an elevated putting surface, with no kick plate, can it have Reverse Redan characteristics?

I agree I don't really see it there. I'm not sure that hole fits a template.

The 13th is a Cape, although the angle off the tee isn't quite what it should be. It is definitely a Cape-style green though.

[JC Urbina]

Tim,

  How about throwing in some Langford and Moreau.

 The nine hole, Harrison Hills and Culver Academy?

[Britt Rife]

.Pat, it can't be a Biarritz because it has a rise, not a dip, in the middle.

And Voila!  A Reverse Biarritz is born!

[Sven Nilsen]

12 - Bottle

[Phil McDade]

Tim,

  How about throwing in some Langford and Moreau.

 The nine hole, Harrison Hills and Culver Academy?

Thank you, JC, for this. What Dye-Raynor connection? Everyone knows it's a Dye-Langford connection.

[Nigel Islam]

I have wondered whether the 18th at Whistling Straits could be Dye's attempt at a Strategy hole? Did not turn out so well, but I wonder if that might be where he came up with the idea. (not sure I completely get the difference between Strategy & Channel, so feel free to correct me)

[Scott Sander]

Tim...

...Langford/Liddy...

 The nine (18) hole, Harrison Hills...

This whole thread is like some architectural mobius strip.    It's making my head hurt...

[Ed Oden]

Personally, I think Dye uses templates as much as any modern architect.  But they seem to me to be his own creations and not those of CMB/Raynor.  My guess is that if you find a Dye hole that fits the strategic mold of a prized dogleg it is largely coincidence.  On the other hand, if you find a short par four where the pin can be seen from the tee but is partially or entirely obscured from landing zone, then you've got a common Dye template. 

As an aside, in my opinion Raynor's greatest strength was the ability to work his templates into a wide variety of properties and landscapes to create holes similar in concept yet different enough to avoid redundancy.  For example, each Raynor redan I've played fits both within the context of the course and within the broader context of its comparative relationship to other Raynor redans without losing any interest.  That's a tough thing to pull off and Raynor did.  I don't get the same feeling from Dye's templates. 

[Ronald Montesano]

The par five holes that you see at Kiawah are usually found on his more recognized courses. The double dogleg with the severe hazard are encountered at Sawgrass, Kiawah and Whistling Straits.

[John_Cullum]

I would love to hear Pete Dye's response to this inquiry

[David Cronheim]

Personally, I think Dye uses templates as much as any modern architect.  But they seem to me to be his own creations and not those of CMB/Raynor.  My guess is that if you find a Dye hole that fits the strategic mold of a prized dogleg it is largely coincidence.  On the other hand, if you find a short par four where the pin can be seen from the tee but is partially or entirely obscured from landing zone, then you've got a common Dye template. 

As an aside, in my opinion Raynor's greatest strength was the ability to work his templates into a wide variety of properties and landscapes to create holes similar in concept yet different enough to avoid redundancy.  For example, each Raynor redan I've played fits both within the context of the course and within the broader context of its comparative relationship to other Raynor redans without losing any interest.  That's a tough thing to pull off and Raynor did.  I don't get the same feeling from Dye's templates. 

Ed, I think you hit the nail on the head. One of the "templates" I've found common to Dye's courses are holes like #14 at Harbour Town, where there is lateral trouble on one side of the green with a bailout to the other. If you take the bailout you leave yourself an almost impossible shot to a green that runs away towards the hazard.

A second Dye template is (usually a finishing hole) #18 at TPC Sawgrass and Harbour Town, a bite off as much as you dare chew tee shot (some might say "Cape" tee shot, but Mr. Bahto has shown me the error of my ways on that point) to a green that juts out into a hazard. It's a "cape" hole for sure, but what makes Dye's special is that unlike Raynor's capes which were usually short-ish, these are long, monster par-4's that leave you plenty of room to bailout, but punish the bailout with a shot that makes finding the putting surface in 2 almost impossible.

A third Dye template is the short par 4 to a tiny, severely elevated green that is generally not circular. It requires a precise shot with a short iron to reach either the front or back of the green. Here I'm thinking of holes like #2 at Heron Point (Sea Pines) and #3 at Kiawah.

[Nigel Islam]

I am anxious to hear Tim Liddy's input since he started this thread. I'm sure he has more to add on the matter.