[Patrick_Mucci]

I haven't seen any in the 48 years I've been playing there.

Pat,

Do you think your opinion will change once you get to know the course a bit better?   

I'm working on it

Seriously though, tactically, how has your play on the course varied over the years?

Yes

I used to lay back off the tee on # 8 until Jay Sigel told me that the best way to play the hole was to hit driver and try to get to the slight incline fronting the green, leaving you a much easier approach to that green off an uphill lie.

On # 1, unless I have a partner, and the hole is in the back of the green, I play to the middle/middle back of the green.
I also don't try to cut the dogleg anymore.
The trees have grown considerably in 48 years and there's more of them.
When I first played the course, a miss right just left you a long approach from the sand, now you're in a mini-forest

On # 2, early on I used to hit 3-wood off the tee, now I hit driver.

On # 3 I've learned how to use the slopes in the green for certain hole locations.

On # 4, I usually want to be past the hole, putting uphill after my approach.

On # 5. I no longer play to the hole, but short of the green.

On # 6 i now play to the right of the cedar tree, taking a more aggressive line off the tee
And I've learned how to better use the slope of the green for my approaches

Not much has changed on the play of # 7

# 8 I described earlier

#'s 9 & 10 remain the same for me, although, when playing the right side green the use of the left slope helps

# 11 is sort of dependent on how I'm playing in terms of my tee shot line,

# 12 I've always hit driver to try to remove any angle to the hole on my approach

# 13, I no longer try to cut the dogleg nature of the hole.  I avoid left - left center tee shots
And, since my iron and fairway wood play isn't what it used to be, I use the pitch of the land more on my approaches.

# 14 I just go for the center of the green.  It continues to be a round killer.

# 15 remains the same off the tee, the second shot tends to be "lie" dependent combined with how I've been playing so far.
Staying below the hole isn't as easy as it sounds for your approach as I've seen many balls roll back off the green and down the fairway.
You want to get as close as possible on your second, but you want to keep the ball in play.
Decisions, decisions, decisions

On # 16 I take a more aggressive line off the tee to try to give me a better line into the green,
When the hole is cut far right it's one of the most frightening shots from a fairway, especially from a sloped fairway that promotes a fade/slice

# 17 I used to hit a 3-wood and now hit driver trying to get as close as possible to that green.
I also don't try to squeeze the ball in between the flag and the front, preferring to go long and use the slope to spin the ball short of the hole

# 18, I don't think much has changed, except a keener use of the punchbowl nature of the green.

Now these are all general guidelines which can be altered depending upon your specific situation and how I'm playing that day

Hope that helps
   



Are there any holes where you are still uncertain as to the way you want to play it? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Are there any holes where you are still uncertain as to the way you want to play it? 

No, ideally, in my head.  Yes, practically as I'm confronted with each shot.

For whatever the reason, # 14 has always been a problem for me due to the disparity in elevation between tee and green, no bailout area, wind and the visual presented by the hole.

Do I hit a full shot ?
Do I punch a shot ?
Do i take more club, less club ??

As I think about it, if you're going to miss that green, missing right seems preferable, but my problems haven't been horizontal on that hole, they've been vertical, either too short or too long.

The 2nd and 3rd shots into # 15 can cause uncertainty.

So can a back hole location on # 1.

Many golfers are uncertain about carrying HHA

certain tees shots like # 2, 6, 11, 15 and 16 can cause uncertainty.

So much depends upon your ball striking and confidence that day

Hope that helps

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I have been a vocal supporter of the "card and pencil" approach to golf because I don't think it has to include the slow play and dour attitude many on here tie to it. I want to post a score every time I play...but...it's just a game. No matter where you're playing or what it's for, it's just a game and the most fun part of the game is playing shots that are at the edge of your skill level and seeing if you can pull it off.
Jim,

I agree, but it's so much easier to make that statement from a bar stool than it is from the 14th tee when you've got a great round going.

Your use of the toughest shots at Pine Valley as examples for it not being fun imply that easy shots are fun and I just don't believe that's your attitude.
I used them because everyone who plays there is faced with them and can relate to them.
With those green complexes and the consequences of missing a green, there aren't an abundance of easy shots at PV.

Like I said above, if you're "jumping for joy and overcome with levity" I probably don't want to play golf with you.

I think you need to reread that passage.

[Patrick_Mucci]

My mate shot 74 off 3 on his second round including a double from the back edge on 2 having only rolled a yard off the green and ending up only four yards from the pin. He thought it fun and I found it great fun despite a little ping pong after missing the first pin high right.
I wonder if your mate hit any shots into the woods and found that he had a clear shot back into play ?
I wonder how he would feel if he didn't have any shot and had to take an "X" ?

Fun is about attitude not ability or the quality of the course, but then what do I know.

"Fun" is about circumstances.

You can have the best attitude in the world, but when you're sitting in a hospital and your physician tells you that your CT scan reveals that you have Stage III or Stage IV cancer, you're not having fun.

On a lighter note, when a golfer is struggling, playing poorly on a very difficult course like PV, "fun" is not the word that comes to mind.
Neither his nor any observer's.

[JESII]

Pat,

Does easy = fun?

I always figured interesting was the closest indicator/synonym/equivalent of fun on a golf course but even that's probably below 100%.

I'll admit that the 14th is probably the least fun shot on the course...but all the stuff you describe is still the fun part. Looking at a shot in which nothing can go wrong is certainly not fun for me...at least not more than once.

Do I think it's a fun shot for an 18 handicap from the 215 tee? Depends on their attitude. If they cannot feasibly carry the water, no! But then they should probably play the 155 tee...

[Jason Thurman]

My mate shot 74 off 3 on his second round including a double from the back edge on 2 having only rolled a yard off the green and ending up only four yards from the pin. He thought it fun and I found it great fun despite a little ping pong after missing the first pin high right.
I wonder if your mate hit any shots into the woods and found that he had a clear shot back into play ?
I wonder how he would feel if he didn't have any shot and had to take an "X" ?

Fun is about attitude not ability or the quality of the course, but then what do I know.

"Fun" is about circumstances.

You can have the best attitude in the world, but when you're sitting in a hospital and your physician tells you that your CT scan reveals that you have Stage III or Stage IV cancer, you're not having fun.

On a lighter note, when a golfer is struggling, playing poorly on a very difficult course like PV, "fun" is not the word that comes to mind.
Neither his nor any observer's.

Pat, fun is also about perspective. If that person with Stage III cancer plays Pine Valley, I'll bet they have lots of fun for a few hours, even if they have to hit a few shots that might wreck their scorecard.

You've been a more successful player than most and you're far more familiar with protecting a good score than I. But from my perspective, there isn't much that can happen on a golf course that doesn't qualify as "fun" on some level. Even when carding an X on the way to a 134, it's really just a meaningless game.

Personally, I relish the more difficult moments on a golf course. There's nothing more fun than attempting a creative recovery, or flirting with danger to gain an advantage. You can try to differentiate between fun and enjoyable/thrilling, but for me those feelings are far more fun than wailing away at a wide open hole with no consequence.

Picking up ugly women with low self-esteem is easy, but spending five consecutive encounters making the correct moves to pick up a smoking hot chick is fun. You just have to make sure you don't have so much of your self-worth wrapped up in your ability to close the deal that it becomes an arduous referendum on your value to the planet.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Does easy = fun?

It can if she's really good looking with a hot body  

I always figured interesting was the closest indicator/synonym/equivalent of fun on a golf course but even that's probably below 100%.
"fun" is probably the degree of enjoyment you derive from the activity.
Hitting it long, left or right on # 1 green isn't fun and chances are, neither are the consequences.
PV is saturated with situations that just aren't fun.
It's a penal golf course.  Correction, it's a very penal golf course, and penal golf courses aren't defined or categorized as "fun"

I'll admit that the 14th is probably the least fun shot on the course...but all the stuff you describe is still the fun part.
And you're a superior golfer.
Imagine how the mid to higher handicap perceives the golf course.

Looking at a shot in which nothing can go wrong is certainly not fun for me...at least not more than once.

I don't know if there are any shots where nothing can go wrong

Do I think it's a fun shot for an 18 handicap from the 215 tee? Depends on their attitude. If they cannot feasibly carry the water, no! But then they should probably play the 155 tee...

Even at 155 it's a daunting, frightening shot for an 18 handicap, with dire consequences should the golfer fail to execute properly.

PV is not the name that first comes to mind when someone asks, what's a course that's really fun to play ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Fun is about attitude not ability or the quality of the course, but then what do I know.

"Fun" is about circumstances.

You can have the best attitude in the world, but when you're sitting in a hospital and your physician tells you that your CT scan reveals that you have Stage III or Stage IV cancer, you're not having fun.

On a lighter note, when a golfer is struggling, playing poorly on a very difficult course like PV, "fun" is not the word that comes to mind.
Neither his nor any observer's.

[/quote]

Pat, fun is also about perspective. If that person with Stage III cancer plays Pine Valley, I'll bet they have lots of fun for a few hours, even if they have to hit a few shots that might wreck their scorecard.

Jason, having had Stage III cancer I feel reasonably qualified to comment on patient perspectives.
Pine Valley, while always a treat to play, is not the course i would choose to play to buoy my spirits.
The dire consequences associated with errant shots are not morale boosters.

Playing golf becomes a diversion and in my case the refusal to allow cancer to disrupt my life.

Radiation combined with chemo and surgery reduces you ability to perform.
It saps your physical strength, hence, PV would not be amongst my first choices.
NGLA and GCGC would be.
They're more benign, less punitive.
As a Stage III-IV Cancer Patient you want to experience success, not failure.
Good, not dire consequences.

I played golf during my battle, and I would have welcomed playing PV, but, it wouldn't have been fun, it would have been incredibly difficult when compared to so many other courses.   

You've been a more successful player than most and you're fToday, long amateurs and pros FLY that road, leaving the lob wedges into that green, a very difficult green to approach from the tee side of the road.ar more familiar with protecting a good score than I.

But from my perspective, there isn't much that can happen on a golf course that doesn't qualify as "fun" on some level.
I think Jim Sullivan properly summed up our attitude when we approach the first tee.
We want to score well.

I can tell you that 3 foot putts meant nothing to me when I was in the midst of my battle, but as I improved, as it looked like I was going to live, those little rascals began to take on more significance.

I know all about "fun", on and off the golf course, and I can tell you that playing Pine Valley is a great experience and thrill, but once you step up on that first tee, if you're trying to play your best golf and hope to score well, "fun" is not the word that springs to mind.

Even when carding an X on the way to a 134, it's really just a meaningless game.

Then why do you play it ?

It's not a meaningless game.   It's a game for the ages, a game of integrity, heart, camaraderie and challenge

Personally, I relish the more difficult moments on a golf course. There's nothing more fun than attempting a creative recovery, or flirting with danger to gain an advantage. You can try to differentiate between fun and enjoyable/thrilling, but for me those feelings are far more fun than wailing away at a wide open hole with no consequence.

That's not the issue.

If you relish difficult moments on the golf course, you'll be confronted with them, constantly, from the first tee until the eighteenth green

Picking up ugly women with low self-esteem is easy, but spending five consecutive encounters making the correct moves to pick up a smoking hot chick is fun.
I've never opted for the former, always preferring the latter.

You just have to make sure you don't have so much of your self-worth wrapped up in your ability to close the deal that it becomes an arduous referendum on your value to the planet.

Whether you close the deal, or not, doesn't decide your value to the planet, it only establishes your value to the "smoking hot chick"
[/quote]

[Sean Leary]

Pat,

Does easy = fun?

I always figured interesting was the closest indicator/synonym/equivalent of fun on a golf course but even that's probably below 100%.

I'll admit that the 14th is probably the least fun shot on the course...but all the stuff you describe is still the fun part. Looking at a shot in which nothing can go wrong is certainly not fun for me...at least not more than once.

Do I think it's a fun shot for an 18 handicap from the 215 tee? Depends on their attitude. If they cannot feasibly carry the water, no! But then they should probably play the 155 tee...

I think you hit the nail on the head. Generally the perspective is easy = fun, which is at the heart of all of these fun topics around here lately. And "easy" actually is what people perceive to be easy, not what score they shoot vs their normal score, IMO. I am sure there are exceptions and people may disagree but for the most part I believe this is the case.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Leary,

I don't consider #'s 6, 8 and 18 at NGLA to be easy, but they sure are fun.

[Sean Leary]

Sean Leary,

I don't consider #'s 6, 8 and 18 at NGLA to be easy, but they sure are fun.

 Can you explain why each of these holes fit both fun and difficult for you?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Leary,

I don't consider #'s 6, 8 and 18 at NGLA to be easy, but they sure are fun.

 Can you explain why each of these holes fit both fun and difficult for you?

# 6
huge green, a greens within green, elevated tee above the angled green 141 yards away, wind usually a factor.
Everything is sitting there below you.  The shot is anything from a sand wedge to a 6 iron, you have to get to the proper tier.

# 8 the Bottle Hole
Decision on the tee
Left, right or try to fly the centerline bunkers
Then, depending upon your decision and execution, you must attack the fortress like green elevated well above you from a less than flat lie.
The visual of the flag, seemingly suspended in space or on a gangplank is stunning.

# 18
Avoid or challenge the deep left side bunker on the drive to an expansive uphill fairway.
Then you're faced with an uphill shot off of less than a flat lie to a secondary fairway laced with random bunkers, almost always with wind a factor, with disaster looming right, down off the cliff.  Then, there's the skyline green and the frightening shot into infinity, for the green sits high up on a narrowing plateau that falls off steeply on all sides but the front, with nothing but sky behind it.

Fun, but far from easy.

[Sean Leary]

Sean Leary,

I don't consider #'s 6, 8 and 18 at NGLA to be easy, but they sure are fun.

 Can you explain why each of these holes fit both fun and difficult for you?

# 6
huge green, a greens within green, elevated tee above the angled green 141 yards away, wind usually a factor.
Everything is sitting there below you.  The shot is anything from a sand wedge to a 6 iron, you have to get to the proper tier.

# 8 the Bottle Hole
Decision on the tee
Left, right or try to fly the centerline bunkers
Then, depending upon your decision and execution, you must attack the fortress like green elevated well above you from a less than flat lie.
The visual of the flag, seemingly suspended in space or on a gangplank is stunning.

# 18
Avoid or challenge the deep left side bunker on the drive to an expansive uphill fairway.
Then you're faced with an uphill shot off of less than a flat lie to a secondary fairway laced with random bunkers, almost always with wind a factor, with disaster looming right, down off the cliff.  Then, there's the skyline green and the frightening shot into infinity, for the green sits high up on a narrowing plateau that falls off steeply on all sides but the front, with nothing but sky behind it.

Fun, but far from easy.

Thanks Pat.

I have not played NGLA but I have played PV a bit. I would put 6, 8 and 12 at PV into this category as well as super fun holes that can play difficult, two of which have heroic options similar to those presented at The National. However i would guess that the rest of the holes at NGLA are generally easier than the rest at PV.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

6, 8 and 12 at PV are on the short, sporty  side.

6 can produce a high score if you get too greedy or hit a marginal drive, but, they're probably considered the easier holes at PV.

[David_Elvins]

Thanks for your insight, Pat, on golf and women.

[Charlie_Bell]

I suspect that there are few words -- or concepts -- that generate more idiosyncratic responses than "fun."   For me, golf is unquestionably, immutably, almost incomparably, fun. For my wife, golf is not fun. 

(Blessedly, there are other leisure activities that both of us consider fun.)

[David Davis]

I haven't played PV but I have a question and don't want to hijack this thread either. Everyone claims it's terribly difficult, which I find fun as long as you are hitting the ball decently but I'd like to have this "terribly difficult" put into perspective so I can relate. Is terribly difficult equal or harder than say Whistling Straits or Black Wolf Run? The reason I mentioned those two is because I found them both to be tough courses and I think most of you will have played them. Played great at Whistling straits from the back tees in the wind and had fun. Was jet lagged and off at Black Wolf Run, destroyed by the course still had fun but perhaps less. I know you can't compare the courses but how about the difficulty of them as that will give me an indication of how much pain = fun ha ha...thanks.

[Mike Hendren]

"It is the most fun you can have with your clothes on."

- Randy Travis

[JESII]

David,

I haven't played either of those WI courses but I can tell you where the difficulty at Pine Valley comes from. Every bad swing could potentially end up in a spot from which double bogey is a good score on the hole. Almost all of the time however you need to hit a bad shot and get some really bad luck. Typically if you miss a tee shot a little you still catch the edge of the wide fairways. If not, the underbrush is typically cleared out so you go in and chip back to the fairway. Around the greens the bunkers and terrain are such that you more frequently end up in a strange place...maybe a restricted swing or a downslope to a green well above you. This is where bad shots can compound into triples and higher. The greens are the most fun and interesting I have ever played...they're also tough so if you think you're going to get up and down for par or bogey all day you better be really good.

Because there's something at risk on each shot you can never rest. This sounds like it's not fun for some people...fine...but I'd challenge them to replace a single hole, or shot, with another one that would make the course more fun.

That being said, if you go into it with the attitude of hitting some really cool shots and trying play each hole well...but being able to flush bad holes out of your mind quickly it's as much fun as golf can get...other than a rock hard links course in high wind!

[Jason Thurman]

Jim (and others who have played it),

How would the course change if the playing corridors were widened so that the trees didn't make double-bogeys such a threat? Would the increased playability improve the course? Or would it detract from the challenge and character that makes Pine Valley so good?

Is further widening even possible, or would you start running out of room between holes?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Jim (and others who have played it),

How would the course change if the playing corridors were widened so that the trees didn't make double-bogeys such a threat? Would the increased playability improve the course? Or would it detract from the challenge and character that makes Pine Valley so good?

Is further widening even possible, or would you start running out of room between holes?

Jason,

We'll see what others have to say, but in my opinion the trees have very little to do with the resistance to scoring that Pine Valley provides in comparison to the sand, awkward lies, being on the wrong side of the greens, etc.  If they did want to widen the corridors there is plenty of room to do so.

[Sean Leary]

Jim (and others who have played it),

How would the course change if the playing corridors were widened so that the trees didn't make double-bogeys such a threat? Would the increased playability improve the course? Or would it detract from the challenge and character that makes Pine Valley so good?

Is further widening even possible, or would you start running out of room between holes?

Jason,

We'll see what others have to say, but in my opinion the trees have very little to do with the resistance to scoring that Pine Valley provides in comparison to the sand, awkward lies, being on the wrong side of the greens, etc.  If they did want to widen the corridors there is plenty of room to do so.

+1. Almost nothing to do with it.

I think Whistling Straits is WAY harder...

[Bruce Katona]

I enjoyed my one experience @ PV and kept the scorecard to prove I actually played the course.  I'm not a very big card and pencil guy but I do remember my score from that round.

- Why miss the experience of playing from HHA? - I didn't
- Why miss getting "pine-valleyed" out of a waste area? - not me
- Why not hole a long twisting putt? - I did
- # 5 tee ball? - No success but I remember it like it was yesterday.

I'd go back in a minute if invited.  I don't play competitive golf so my score really doesn't matter.  If we have to mplay for something, Skins or match play @ PV would move the day along quickly.  Grinding over a 4' for a 7 is no fun ever.

But what do I know?

[JESII]

Jim (and others who have played it),

How would the course change if the playing corridors were widened so that the trees didn't make double-bogeys such a threat? Would the increased playability improve the course? Or would it detract from the challenge and character that makes Pine Valley so good?

Is further widening even possible, or would you start running out of room between holes?

Jason,

There's a ton of room between the holes so it could be done. It would also make recoveries from sandy waste/scrub more interesting because you'd take a whack at it towards the green sometimes when you cannot now. In my opinion though, the most impactful difference would be the visuals. Mindblowing!

[Marty Bonnar]

They could certainly do with cuttin' some grass!

Anyway, as a good fat Calvinist Scotsman, I obviously thrive on a bit of self-flagellation. I normally have given that privilege to Carnoustie, where every time I've played I've been ritually humbled by many of the holes on the course. There's blindness, wicked green contouring, horrendous bunkers, tough lies, wild recovery options, narrow channels, long rough, basically everything in the arsenal of golf course torture which can possibly be endured. I love it. Call me Silas, Mr Langdon, I don't care.

Without exception, I've loved it EVERY time. It feeds my inner golfer in a way that no other course I've played has. It's elemental golf in the most primaeval way.

BUT

Pine Valley blows it away.

One word is all that is needed. Pine Valley is:

HARD.

BUT

It's beautiful, it's exciting, it's spine-tingling. The History, the facilities, the landscape, the PLACE is proper genius loci to the golfer with any kind of golfing spirit in his/her blood.

I used to say Carnoustie was the most fun I've had having my ass kicked by a golf course. I'm delighted to admit that honour now belongs elsewhere.

F.

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