[Jason Topp]

None are pure templates but if I were to assign the par threes there is some resemblance as follows:

8- redan
17 - Eden
14 - short - at least from the tees I played (165 or so)
5 Biarritz

[Tim Liddy]

Construction:
The hard and straight edges of fairway and green slopes. Many fall-offs on Dye greens, typically on all sides which might confuse some on the overall concept.

The front nine (would love for George Bahto to chime in).

#2 Cape tee shot, described well above
#3 Cape tee shot, Tillinghast green
#4 Cape Tee shot (strengthened with pot bunkers)
#5 Biarritz with roll instead of swale
#6 Cape tee shot, Donald Ross reverse par 4 (R to L off tee, L to R into Green)
#7 Cape tee shot, cape second shot, described well above
#8 Short (2 level green)
#9 Cape tee shot

[Jason Topp]

Construction:
#8 Short (2 level green)
[/quote

Really?

The slope on the green is much more redan-like to me. 

[Tim Liddy]

Jason,
Was not designed as a Redan although it has a fall-off. #14 is a Redan design concept.

[Ben Sims]

I wonder if CB Macdonald would be fond of his original intent for mimicking the characteristics of great golf holes being twisted the way it is today.  The more I read modern architecture books and even this website, the more I am convinced that the modern obsession over templates is more derived from aesthetic than playing characteristics.  People like templates because it makes them able to undertsand something better.  It gives them comfort if they can fit a certain hole into a category, rather than genuinly examine it for what it is singularly.  It reminds me of the widely held belief I've heard that #3 at Pine Valley could be a redan.  Nothing is further fromr reality, in my opinion.

My thought is that Pete Dye probably couldn't give a hoot about someone saying his golf holes could fit into some predefined mold.  But again, that's just my opinion.

Golf holes are infinite in variety and shape.  But because golf is played with a ball, in a direction of a hole, with predefined limits (fairways and greens) on where the game is played, then there are only a few dozen concepts of how to get from A to B.  ID'ing those concepts and then attaching a name to them does not make someone more enlightened architecturally.  Rather, I feel it limits us.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tim, I'm with you on the angularity but strict Raynor constructionists will note that a Cape refers to a green jutting out into water or air and not the tee shot.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,
Was not designed as a Redan although it has a fall-off. #14 is a Redan design concept.

Funny - I did not notice the Redan concept there at all, perhaps because the tees we played (maybe 165-175 yards) were at less of an angle.  It seemed to me a hole where you hit it to the middle of the green because anything landing on the back half was going over.

[Tim Liddy]

Thanks Mark. I was trying to make another point, but understand this site is much about definitions.

To Ben's point, I think the templates are more about having a vocabulary to explain the creative process and also how Kiawah's shaping supports the MacDonald template aesthetic.

[Eric Smith]

Different PGA (Whistling Straits), but still Dye on Raynor:

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=3052

Pete Dye: 3rd hole…which is the second hole that plays along the lake.

Jay Flemma: Three is the Redan, right? The par-3?

Pete Dye: Yes, it’s similar to a Redan. The one at Berwick has contours on the green where the back is lower than the front and there’s a big roll in it. Now when I bunkered the one at Whistling I wanted to make it look like that part of the green is hanging into the lake.

Jay Flemma: So you wanted to create a Cape-like element – where the green feels like it’s out on a peninsula – but to also set-up and play like a Redan?

Pete Dye: Yes, that’s right. Seth Raynor used to do Redans everywhere he did a golf course. He built similar things at courses everywhere he went, and he built Redans everywhere in particular. I think Redan means fortress…anyway, we have the same contours. First, you have to make it big, because you have to put the big roll in it where the back is lower than the front. The green is also a little right to left. Now even though the back is lower than the front, you can still see the back left corner. Ours does the same thing as the one at Berwick and the ones Raynor built. And I also wanted to give the illusion the back was sitting in the water.

[Nigel Islam]

This is a fascinating topic. Dye always seems to have a redan like green on his courses, but in my limited experience they don't really accept run up shots.

[Tim Liddy]

Thanks Eric. I wonder if Jay asked him about the "train wreck" #17th template hole (Whistling Straits, Kiawah, Players).

[David Cronheim]

Thanks Eric. I wonder if Jay asked him about the "train wreck" #17th template hole (Whistling Straits, Kiawah, Players).

Hell, I might even throw Harbour Town in there. Here's the view from the tips:



The little 1 foot-wide traps in the back are incredibly difficult too.

[Sean Leary]

Thanks Eric. I wonder if Jay asked him about the "train wreck" #17th template hole (Whistling Straits, Kiawah, Players).

Pretty sure those were  all Ally's idea....

[Jay Flemma]

Tim, he talked a lot about 17.

[David Cronheim]

Are there any other notably difficult #17's in his portfolio? #17 at Bulle Rock springs to mind as well. It's hard, but not ridiculous.

[Nick Campanelli]

17 at PGA West should also be on the list.  17 at Crooked Stick plays 217yds from the tips to a deep, but narrow, undulating surface guarded by a 15' deep bunker left, severe mounding right, and hidden pond long.  Hit the green or bogey is a great score.  Embedding images isn't working for me at the moment.  Link to a few pics of CS#17 below.

http://www5.snapfish.com/snapfish/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=6845717027/a=3852168027_3852168027/otsc=SHR/otsi=SALBlink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/

   

[Matthew Rose]

Dye's got his own set of templates.... or cliches, depending on how you feel about them.

Even on Kiawah, I see a lot of typical holes of his. S-shaped par fours and par fives with giant waste bunkers. The Par 5, Par 3, Par 4 finish. The "train wreck" 17th, as mentioned. The bruiser par-4 18th, usually with large hazard.

If anything, my one critique of Kiawah is that a lot of the holes tend to look identical, at least on the TV coverage. I had a hard time telling #12 and #13 apart. I also thought a couple of the par-threes looked very similar.

[jeffwarne]

Dye's got his own set of templates.... or cliches, depending on how you feel about them.

Even on Kiawah, I see a lot of typical holes of his. S-shaped par fours and par fives with giant waste bunkers. The Par 5, Par 3, Par 4 finish. The "train wreck" 17th, as mentioned. The bruiser par-4 18th, usually with large hazard.

If anything, my one critique of Kiawah is that a lot of the holes tend to look identical, at least on the TV coverage. I had a hard time telling #12 and #13 apart. I also thought a couple of the par-threes looked very similar.

I felt that way the three times I played it over 17 years.
Not my cup of tea but I'm clearly OK with that.
That's probably why I play a lot of uncrowded courses

[Patrick_Mucci]

Perhaps the answer to the question regarding influence lies in the number of CBM/SR/CB courses where Pete has been their consultant.

Piping Rock stands out as one.

What are the others ?

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