Is women's golf....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Played in the Met Father-Son today, my youngest son's first foray into competition.
Unfortunately, he had a rough day, but, a great experience.

Teeing off directly behind us was an 11 year old with his dad.
The kid is quite a player and is already competing in tournaments, shooting in the 70's.
Should he be prohibited from playing due to his age, despite being able to qualify by virtue of his talent ?

[Phil McDade]

Age restrictions are placed on all manner of things in our society, both in the interests of the individual and society at large.

There are several age restrictions in sports in place already -- notably women's (girl's, really...) gymnastics, and NBA basketball. Major League Baseball expends considerable resources making sure birth certificates of young, foreign-born prospects are legitimate, as major league teams are prohibited from signing anyone under the age of 16.

If Ms. Stone somehow manages to win the US Amateur, she'll no doubt be hit up with endorsement offers and urged to turn pro by non-disinterested third parties. Does anyone on this board think that's in the best interest of any 10-year-old?

I'm not entirely sure what the appropriate age is for competition in a given sport at its highest, national or international levels. Several swimmers (some of whom I actually know) have qualified for the Olympic Trials, and thus were eligible for making an Olympic team, at age 12. And that strikes me as too young. 10 is far too young. 16? 15? Maybe. Like the late great Justic Potter Stewart, referring to what is now the internet's most profitable enterprise , I'm not sure I can define it, but I know it when I see it. And playing the US Amateur at age 10, for me, is too young -- way too young.

Full disclosure: Two of my sons have competed at state-level championships beginning at the age of 10 (the youngest) and 12 (the oldest). But they have only competed against (and trained with) their peer groups, and have never competed beyond state-level contests. Nor would we allow it, as parents. I would never allow my 10 or 12-year-old to compete in a national championship like the US Amateur. If they are that good when they are 16 or 17, then maybe.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

Each parent has to decide on how they will guide and mentor their children.

Each parent has to try to prepare their children for adult life, inclusive of inertial guidance systems that will serve them well when they're on there own.

Half a century ago, the tournament age restrictions were intended to keep the older kids from playing in the younger kids events.

I don't think anyone contemplated the reverse, where 11 year olds are qualifying for the U.S. Amateur.

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

You're correct, of course, about parental decision-making. No 10-year-old, of course, is capable of making a truly rationale decision about, for instance, competing in a national tournament. But allowing one to do so, I'd argue, raises (quite easily, I'd suggest) the likelihood that parental decisions will become distorted in the pursuit of something that 10-year-olds have no business doing, like playing in the USGA's (and golf's, really) most important amateur championship.

[Will Lozier]

Played in the Met Father-Son today, my youngest son's first foray into competition.
Unfortunately, he had a rough day, but, a great experience.

Teeing off directly behind us was an 11 year old with his dad.
The kid is quite a player and is already competing in tournaments, shooting in the 70's.
Should he be prohibited from playing due to his age, despite being able to qualify by virtue of his talent ?

Patrick,

How did he handle not having his "A-game"?  Sounds like you both enjoyed yourselves, one another, and the chance to compete.

Cheers

[Will Lozier]

Patrick:

You're correct, of course, about parental decision-making. No 10-year-old, of course, is capable of making a truly rationale decision about, for instance, competing in a national tournament. But allowing one to do so, I'd argue, raises (quite easily, I'd suggest) the likelihood that parental decisions will become distorted in the pursuit of something that 10-year-olds have no business doing, like playing in the USGA's (and golf's, really) most important amateur championship.

Phil,

Doesn't emotional and intellectual maturity count?  To make a blanket statement that golfers of that age have no business playing in that tournament seems like a blanket statement without considering the individual.  But, if you think they - ALL 10-year-olds - should be shielded from such a competitive environment...

I am now a high school teacher while also running the girls soccer program and have seen many of my players burn out as a result of playing too much soccer having spent 10+ years in a (ultra)competitive situation.  It is my belief that if we as a country are to produce truly creative footballers (soccer players), we should let them play in a less formal situation early on to take some pressure off of them and to develop a true love of the game.  I'll have to think about this some more! 

Cheers

[Phil McDade]

Will:

How's Freddy Adu's career coming along?

I wholeheartedly agree with your views on US soccer development.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

You're correct, of course, about parental decision-making. No 10-year-old, of course, is capable of making a truly rationale decision about, for instance, competing in a national tournament. But allowing one to do so, I'd argue, raises (quite easily, I'd suggest) the likelihood that parental decisions will become distorted in the pursuit of something that 10-year-olds have no business doing, like playing in the USGA's (and golf's, really) most important amateur championship.

Phil,

A lot depends upon how grounded the parents are.

[Will Lozier]

Will:

How's Freddy Adu's career coming along?

I wholeheartedly agree with your views on US soccer development.

Freddy actually got a good deal of quality experience overseas - despite all of the movement.  I know people view him as a failure but he is anything but that.  He was the best player at the U20 World Cup in Canada and is still in the National Team Pool despite being back in MLS.  Yes, he has failed to live up to totally unrealistic expectations but, if he stays healthy and Klinsmann can find the right mix of players and the right spot for Freddy (I see him as a withdrawn striker or flank midfielder), I believe he will be an important part of our 2014 World Cup side. 

Freddy's case doesn't really apply because he was thrown into the professional ranks at too young an age - this young lady, young girl really, hasn't made that leap.  It may happen too soon but I think qualifying for the Am and missing the cut will be viewed by her as a positive experience and her father seems to have a positive and laissez-faire attitude.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Played in the Met Father-Son today, my youngest son's first foray into competition.
Unfortunately, he had a rough day, but, a great experience.

Teeing off directly behind us was an 11 year old with his dad.
The kid is quite a player and is already competing in tournaments, shooting in the 70's.
Should he be prohibited from playing due to his age, despite being able to qualify by virtue of his talent ?

Patrick,

How did he handle not having his "A-game"?

Will,

He was nervous about the tasks confronting him and disappointed in his results
It was a good learning experience.
He learned the importance of sound fundamentals, especially under pressure, and the need for preparation.
How do you get to Carnegie Hall ?
I think he also learned how important sticking to your routine is, in terms of timing and tempo.
His thought processes and strategic thinking were...... mostly good, but his execution was off, resulting in disastrous results, which frustrated him.  While my arm around his shoulder and continued encouragement was comforting, it couldn't remove the sting of the bad results.
He finally settled down and began playing better, but that was well into the round.

He's going to work on improving his grip and on making a turn and completing his swing, even on finesse shots.

I told him about Bobby Jones's remark about golf and tournament golf.
And I think he now understands the distinction and how you have to prepare for tournament golf.

Great lessons learned on a great day together.

Played at Knollwood, a neat Raynor course in Westchester


  Sounds like you both enjoyed yourselves.

Cheers

[Will Lozier]

Played in the Met Father-Son today, my youngest son's first foray into competition.
Unfortunately, he had a rough day, but, a great experience.

Teeing off directly behind us was an 11 year old with his dad.
The kid is quite a player and is already competing in tournaments, shooting in the 70's.
Should he be prohibited from playing due to his age, despite being able to qualify by virtue of his talent ?

Patrick,

How did he handle not having his "A-game"?

Will,

He was nervous about the tasks confronting him and disappointed in his results
It was a good learning experience.
He learned the importance of sound fundamentals, especially under pressure, and the need for preparation.
How do you get to Carnegie Hall ?
I think he also learned how important sticking to your routine is, in terms of timing and tempo.
His thought processes and strategic thinking were...... mostly good, but his execution was off, resulting in disastrous results, which frustrated him.  While my arm around his shoulder and continued encouragement was comforting, it couldn't remove the sting of the bad results.
He finally settled down and began playing better, but that was well into the round.

He's going to work on improving his grip and on making a turn and completing his swing, even on finesse shots.

I told him about Bobby Jones's remark about golf and tournament golf.
And I think he now understands the distinction and how you have to prepare for tournament golf.

Great lessons learned on a great day together.

Played at Knollwood, a neat Raynor course in Westchester


  Sounds like you both enjoyed yourselves.

Cheers

Sounds like a great day nonetheless.  Two of my favorite quotes deal with learning through adversity...an old African proverb states: "To stumble is to move forward more quickly"; while my soccer team often hears my own version of another great quote: "Anything worthwhile...is difficult".

I've only played to my potential in exactly one tournament (PGA PAT where I was medalist 74-76 in the midst of being in very poor form) and flailed in many others (e.g., 39-50-89 in my one British Open Qualifier after making a 10 on #10 at Alwoodley arriving in solid form).  Jones was so right!

Cheers

M

[Phil McDade]

Freddy's case doesn't really apply because he was thrown into the professional ranks at too young an age - this young lady, young girl really, hasn't made that leap.  It may happen too soon but I think qualifying for the Am and missing the cut will be viewed by her as a positive experience and her father seems to have a positive and laissez-faire attitude.

Will:

Who, exactly, was responsible for "throwing" Adu into the professional ranks at too young an age (14)? Legally, I presume he wasn't capable of signing a binding contract, so I'm assuming his parents might have played a role in that?

Stone is, in effect, auditioning to become a professional golfer. Amateur golf at that level (the national championship, and the most important amateur golf tournament for women) is equivalent to AAA baseball, college football and basketball (and golf), or junior hockey -- the training and proving ground for future pros. That she's unlikely to make the cut, and may very well plan to stay an amateur for awhile, doesn't really change my view that it's inappropriate for her to be competing in this tournament.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

You bring up an important point, but kids sports just simply ain't what they used to be.  Kids are pushed into elite travel teams and forced to focus on one sport way too early IMO.  Of course playing in one U.S. Am is quite a bit different from turning pro too early, having overbearing parents standing over every shot and quitting school before graduating high school.  For better or worse there are scads of 10 year old girls in Korea banging balls from sunup to sundown.  It's up to each family to do what's right for their child in each situation.  Granted it's a difficult road to walk.  My son is being heavily recruited for travel Volleyball teams now.  He's 13, has matured early and has shown some natural ability for the game.  While he's probably got a lot more upside in Golf than in Volleyball (he's unlikely to ever be much taller than 6 feet and defensive specialist isn't his bag) he enjoys the game and the camaraderie of playing a team sport with his buddies more than working on his chipping and putting and grinding over 5 footers in junior golf events.  These travel teams go all over the country, all year, including to National tournaments.  It's a ridiculous time commitment and expense for kids at this age and ability, but it also gives him a great sense of confidence and accomplishment.  It's a difficult line we all walk in these situations.  Frankly, I sympathize with her parents.

[Jason Connor]

David,

A 17 year old and a 10 year old aren't even close in physical stature and/or muscle development.....

Even a 15 year old girl and a 10 year old girl are miles apart...

A 59-year-old man isn't close in physical stature or muscle development to a world class athlete, either.  But that didn't stop Tom Watson in 2009.

[Phil McDade]

Jud:

13-year-olds need to be part of a national traveling team in Sport X to gain a sense of confidence and accomplishment? Frankly, that's the kind of crap spread by club coaches at all levels of sport -- coaches who have a significant financial interest in increasing the ranks of year-round, single-sport athletes.

I spend, via work and volunteering, a lot of time around high school athletes. The most confident, self-assured high school athlete I've met in years is a six-time state titliest in swimming. He also:

-- Never swam year-round, a rarity (as in, literally non-existent) for swimmers of that caliber; he limited his swimming to the three months of the high school season;

-- Ran cross country and track, fairly well, but not well enough to make it to state competition.

-- Taught and coached youngsters in swimming and diving at his neighborhood outdoor pool this summer;

-- Turned down numerous overtures from several Div. 1 college coaches (including some in the Big 10) to swim in college;

-- Plans to go to college, read poetry, and study architecture.

I'm not sure what he'll end up doing, but I'm pretty sure whatever it is, he'll be successful at it. He's one of those kids that, if he golfed and caddied, people would be tripping over themselves to award him an Evans Scholar.

He was never once in any kind of traveling sports team. I wish more high school athletes (and even those not even in junior high, like our young golfer) would follow his example.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

He sounds like a rare athlete and I agree with you in principle.  He's more likely to be a successful swim coach than a successful Architect however...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil & Jed,

I've been opposed to organized team sports for kids in grammar school for decades, however I do recognize that we live in different times, where neighborhood kids don't seem to engage in informal pick-up games like we used to.

"Sand Lot" games are a thing of the past.
Maybe it's the legal environment and other factors.

For a youngster interested in golf, access to courses is a challenge.
As a youngster improves, as any golfer improves, it seems that they want to compete at higher and higher levels.

I've never known a plus handicap to be content to play in his Club's net or gross competitions to the exclusion of outside, more competitive events.

So what competitive outlet does a talented junior golfer have at his disposal ?

[Kalen Braley]

For the record,

I did not post this as a social commentary piece of 10 year old girl as it relates to being exposed too early.

It was purely a question of, is the talent level lacking that a 10 year old can compete at the highest levels?  Or is the girl truly a one-of-a-kind-ubber-phenom?

Jason,

This doesn't compare.  You are talking about a 59 year old man who has been playing at the highest levels for 40 years of those 59.  He's already proven he's a freak of nature by doing what he's already done prior to his latest Open heroics.  Several guys in their 50s can still compete with the young guns, in large part due to improve fitness and diet regimes in addition to improvements in equipment.

[Phil McDade]

Phil,

He sounds like a rare athlete and I agree with you in principle.  He's more likely to be a successful swim coach than a successful Architect however...

Jud:

I think that's exactly the wrong take on it.

Why do you and I encourage our kids to participate in sports? Sure, for all the usual reasons -- it's healthy, nurtures and fulfills their competitive spirit, allows them to create and develop friendships with their peers. But, to me, sports at their best for young kids gives them your aforementioned sense of accomplishment, helps them with things like motivation and goal-setting, exposes them to something like a team, in which the pursuit of a larger goal is more important than any single individual accomplishment. All of those are things worth doing, and worth encouraging as life-long habits.

Others on this board know far better than I do, but I hope we're not awarding Evans Scholars to golfers to encourage them to become golf pros, or even work in the field. We award Evans Scholarships because those kids have demonstrated themselves to be young adults of great character and work ethic -- traits that will likely make them successful in whatever endeavor they pursue.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,

I've noticed that the qualifying scores for State, Regional, National and Invitational events have gotten lower, indicating an improvement in talent, not a diminishment in talent.

In addition, these low scores have nothing to do with comparative analysis, they speak for themselves.

A 7 under par score speaks to the talent of the golfer shooting that score, not the quality of their competitors.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

If you live in a very competitive area like I do it's fine for your kid to just play to play.  But it very quickly becomes competitive.  If you don't do the travel teams/private coaching etc., your kid is unlikely to make the school teams or see much playing time if he/she does, and while there may be other venues for them to play the game, they may well not want to since their not with their friends who made the squad, bonded on travel team etc...This happened to my son in baseball.  He used to like to play with his buddies, some of whom are quite talented.  Because he also golfed he didn't put the extra time into baseball and eventually all his friends were playing high level ball and he either played with "the losers" or not at all.  So he no longer plays baseball.  I'm not saying it's right or what it should be, but it is what it is.  Mind you I live in an area where a buddy of mine built a full 1/2 court basketball court in his basement for his son who will be lucky to be 5'7"...  

[JMEvensky]

I've noticed that the qualifying scores for State, Regional, National and Invitational events have gotten lower, indicating an improvement in talent, not a diminishment in talent.

You're not going young enough.

There was an AJGA tournament qualifier here Sunday--85 15,16,and 17 year olds for 11 spots. There was a playoff for the 11th spot at 72--that's 1 over on a 6950 yard golf course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JME,

That's the trend I'm seeing.

The quality of play and the talent of the competitors has improved as more and more athletes gravitate to the game.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff:

You're not troubled -- even a little bit -- by a 10-year-old competing in the biggest amateur championship in golf?

No, I'm more troubled by gymnasts that move away from their families to train at age 12

[Joe Leenheer]

In my 12 years of teaching golf I've never met a junior who could do what this young lady has done. Closest was a girl who is currently playing on the #2 college team in the nation. She was good but she wasn't that good at 10.

Kudos.