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PGertner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2012, 05:41:28 PM »
Jon,
It would be helpful to illustrate the dramatic differences in our weather patterns. Here is what we have been dealing with this summer. Could you provide an illustration of what your summer weather patterns are in your part of the world?



+1

Patrick Gertner
East Greenwich, RI

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2012, 07:53:17 AM »
Bradley,

I appreciate the climate is very different in the USA. I don't think the temerature or soil type makes much difference but I suspect the higher humidity might.


PGert,

I only asked about what Mr Decker thought were our grasses un GB&I if not cool season. I have no interest in going down the road of 'you Europeans are always........blah, blah, blah' ;)

R Decker,

why say it and try to ignore it.?????

Jon

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2012, 08:22:29 AM »
I appreciate the climate is very different in the USA. I don't think the temerature or soil type makes much difference but I suspect the higher humidity might.


I'm confused.  You're saying that soil type and temperature don't make much difference for turf? 

Another perfect quote from the smash hit, "All I need to know about turf, I learned on GCA.com"

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2012, 04:35:47 PM »
I appreciate the climate is very different in the USA. I don't think the temerature or soil type makes much difference but I suspect the higher humidity might.


I'm confused.  You're saying that soil type and temperature don't make much difference for turf? 



Ben,

I am not saying what you are implying and were you to read all the posts you would realise my comment was in reference to the difference between the northern USA and GB&I so in this context a) no, the soil type does not make any difference and b) I know from personal experience that fescues produce great playing surfaces in temperatures that stay above 40C (about 110F) and go way below freezing in the winter. So humidity is the one main variable that might play a role.

[/quote]


Another perfect quote from the smash hit, "All I need to know about turf, I learned on GCA.com"
[/quote]

Ben,

I am fed up with some people who have so little knowledge of these things that they want to turn any sort of discussion on these type of topics in to a slanging match. If you have something intelligent to add then please do but the sort of neanderthal comments like the one above just makes you look like someone who has to shout loudly because his point of view has no substance.

Jon

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2012, 12:35:28 PM »
Jon,

I went back and carefully reread the string of posts once you joined the conversation.  I don't find anything in your posts that is anything more than one sentence sound bites of dissension against sound reasoning from Bradley, PGert, and R Decker.  I'm am not saying that you don't have knowledge, but even in the context of comparing GB&I turf to turf in the northern areas of the US, I stand by my assertion that your argument is invalid.  I can't think of many variables that impacts turf more than the edaphological influence of the turf system.  You don't think whether a cool season grass is grown in clay vs. loam vs. sand is notable?

Check that, there is one variable that matches soil in importance.  Temperature.  Temperature impacts just about everything.  It affects whether the most suitable turf for a given area is a C3 or C4 grass.  C3 grasses--as you know--lose water much more readily in warm weather than do their C4 cousins.  Once air and soil temps exceed a certain threshold (which is variable), stomata in the plant close to prevent water loss, photorespiration becomes an issue.  Due to photorespiration, photosynthetic capacity diminishes by as much as 30%.  This impacts all aspects of plant growth--or in very hot conditions like you would see during a typical northern US summer--greatly degrades root growth and efficiency of energy transfer.  Bradley's chart above is a perfect example of just how different the temps in the northern US are for 3-4 months a year as compared to our friends in GB&I.

Combine the adverse impacts of photorespiration in C3 grasses with the tight (and by tight I mean more micro pores and less water/air for the plant as compared to sand) soil conditions associated with clay soils, and you see why the northern US summer is far different than the conditions experienced by GB&I. 

This isn't all to say that our fairways in the US are unmaintainable.  But it illustrates why when players and memberships expect green conditions, relatively large amounts of inputs are required.  I agree with Mike Young (and by default Pat Mucci's recent arguments) that agronomic expectations are by far the biggest culprit in this entire debate.  I have no doubt that if turf professionals in the US were given marching orders to provide a firmer, off color, slightly less turgid surfaces, they could. 

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2012, 05:37:04 PM »
Ben,

I do not know if you are deliberately misconstruing what I am saying or not so I will make it very plain.

1. There is no difference between cool season grasses such as fescue in the USA or GB&I
2. There is no difference between the same type of sandy or clay soils in the USA or GB&I
3 There is no difference between 70C in the USA or GB&I

what you are are talking about is great and to a great degree correct but it is not what I have said.

As to my dissension against sound reasoning from Bradley, PGert, and R Decker

I agreed with Bradley. I don't see why I should start putting up weather charts to justify asking what sort of grasses were grown in GB&I if not cool season in the case of PGert and I was asking R Decker why he ignored the initial question by shifting the argument to another completely different topic just because his initial statement was untenable. I don't get how you find this to be dissension.


Jon

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2012, 06:44:49 PM »
Jon,

I appreciate you finally numerating what you mean.  It helps me understand your point a bit more clearly.  Distilled, you're saying that the differences between the US and GB&I aren't as great as they seem?  That's what I am getting out of it.

(by the way, I am curious as to what temps you think are extreme and for what periods of time.  70C is an oven, and very hot.  Surely you meant 70F, which is really quite a moderate temp for us here.  35C for 30 days in a row is pretty tough, and our northern supers deal with it well.)

I guess we will agree to disagree.  I can't make my point any clearer re: the differences in climactic conditions in one area versus another.  I think you're painting with a very broad brush to make temps in the GB&I analogous to what we have experienced in recent summers here in the states.  Additionally, I think you'll find a much different selection of cool-season grasses being used most extensively in the US versus the most common C3 varieties being used in the GB&I.  

I do agree that R Decker may have misspoken in his post that brought you into the conversation.  Maybe what he was referring to was the prevalence of bent and bluegrass in clay soils in the northern US whereas the most common types in the GB&I would be fescue in sand.  
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 06:47:08 PM by Ben Sims »

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2012, 10:30:27 PM »
Bradley,

I appreciate the climate is very different in the USA. I don't think the temperature or soil type makes much difference but I suspect the higher humidity might.



I tend to agree with Jon here regarding humidity as being having a huge impact on grass stress. Possibly more so than temperature.

I have spent time working in Perth Australia where in the summer months daytime temps can rise over 40 degrees celcius and above at times. Days of 35 and above are extremely frequent. During these same months, rainfall is extremely low and it is common to only receive a few mm for the whole month. The average for the year is 735 mm and most of this is between April to September.

From what I can recall (someone may be better placed to confirm) there may be only one course that has warm season grass for a putting surface (Mossman park).

All the others I encountered are a variety of creeping bent cultivars form the latest A’s and G’s to places where pencross still dominates. In a country where green speed is chased very hard, many of these WA courses are cutting at heights of less than 3mm during these times of peak temperatures. The lowest HOC I saw was 2.2 mm and the super was going to go lower than that. All of the courses I saw are sand based.

For me, the key point is the very low humidity with levels of 50% or less being common.

Currently I work in an area of the South Island of NZ where rainfall is much lower and summer temps are much higher than in the North Island. Having experienced both, it is a much easier environment to manage the grasses in the South Island and I attribute this to the lower humidity compared to the North.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 10:34:04 PM by Grant Saunders »

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2012, 07:31:24 AM »
Ben,

yes I meant 70F not 70C :)

Actually most courses in GB&I are on clay soils but I believe that fescue is more prevalent than in the USA.

 As I have said in the past I have had the experience of being Head Greenkeeper at a club which was wall to wall fescue and with summers where temperatures were in excess of 35C and often 43/44C for 10weeks plus combined with little or no rainfall and plenty of drying winds. We had great playing surfaces so heat is no issue in the fescue question in my experience. For me that only leaves either poor maintenance practices/conditions or humidity. I suspect it is the later that plays a deciding role but as I have never worked in a high humidity climate I don't know for sure.

Jon

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2012, 12:53:50 PM »
Jon,

I'd be curious to know where you were a Head Greenkeeper with 43C(109.2F) temps for 10 weeks+ with 100% fescue.  That's a brutal combination and I only know of one course in the US that is wall-to-wall fescue with any potential for temps that high.  That course is in sand, and has very low humidity. 

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2012, 01:58:49 PM »
Hi Ben,

Just to clarify the 43C was the peak temps that happened for maybe 3 to 4 weeks and the 35C was the 10 weeks plus. It was in Wallis, Switzerland which has a mediterainien climate. It is quite arid and has a warm south wind (Foehn) more often than not. The fescue managed it no problem.

Jon
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 03:49:33 PM by Jon Wiggett »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2012, 06:01:10 PM »
I doubt Americans will give up such conditions on the whole, but a some clubs just might decide another path is better, and at least give it a try.

Hi Ben,

Just to clarify the 43C was the peak temps that happened for maybe 3 to 4 weeks and the 35C was the 10 weeks plus. It was in Wallies, Switzerland which has a mediterainien climate. It is quite arid and has a warm south wind (Foehn) more often than not. The fescue managed it no problem.

Jon

That dry Foehn wind blowing over the Alps can turn winter days into spring days for south Bavaria, just as the Chinook winds do for Calgary, Alberta. Foehn is also the term Germans use for blow dryers.

I think I know the year Jon is speaking about. I believe it was 2003. There was another hot one in 2006; I recall this because the owner at Sand Valley said it was brutally hot and rained a mere 5 days the entire summer.

In 2003 it was brutally hot for weeks on end. This is when 14,000 French died due to the heat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foehn_wind


Patrick_Mucci

Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2012, 08:14:25 PM »
Tony,

One of the only ways clubs will be so inclined is when they see the conditions and color of the fairways and greens of iconic or popular courses televised each week, be it PGA or USGA.

Anyone watching the US Amateur from Cherry Hill has to notice the greenish-yellowish-brownish tinge of the greens and to a lesser degree the fairways.

Once clubs come to the conclusion that less than lush green is acceptable and that G-Y-B coloration tends to indicate ideal playing surfaces, you'll start to see that as the conditions to strive for.

It's A very slow process, but I think it's underway.

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2012, 09:03:52 AM »
Tony,

One of the only ways clubs will be so inclined is when they see the conditions and color of the fairways and greens of iconic or popular courses televised each week, be it PGA or USGA.

Anyone watching the US Amateur from Cherry Hill has to notice the greenish-yellowish-brownish tinge of the greens and to a lesser degree the fairways.

Once clubs come to the conclusion that less than lush green is acceptable and that G-Y-B coloration tends to indicate ideal playing surfaces, you'll start to see that as the conditions to strive for.

It's A very slow process, but I think it's underway.

I agree that TV has a huge role, and The Augusta Effect pumped through the screens at the start of most golf seasons sets the pace. Even links courses have/had been bitten by the bug, so much so that Birkdale's greens went soft and to poa due to practices I would assume influenced by TV. There was a good article about their greens in a British magazine a little after Baker-Finch's win there about the problems with their greens and overfeeding and watering.

The USGA would be wise to invest some money to explain this. For the good of golf.

It is a slow process. Snail pace slow for the talk has been going on for a couple decades.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2012, 09:44:43 AM »
I wonder how intense and for how long the powers that be in golf administration, in combination with the powers that be in golf broadcasting whereby the broadcasters continually mention that the playing conditions of firm and fast despite coloration variance can still mean exciting golf.

One only has to review Dave McCollum's great post on the first page to realize that the battle to inculcate a different mindset with the average American hacker, is a daunting one indeed.  I see this same mindset at Wild Horse, which should be a poster child for firm and fast, yet many of the regular local members rather have brilliant green, and softer conditions that do not allow the ball to bound in the foregreen or into wooga and such.  It seems that the typical golfer just wants to go out and aim at a place on the fairway or green, have the ball go to that general vicinity, stick there, drive their cart there, and hit it again without any forethought to where the ball may bound to once it lands and potentially travels 30+ yards or so...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2012, 03:51:48 PM »
Hi Tony,

yes 2003 was particulary brutal though that part of Wallis experienced such temperatures quite often.

Jon

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2012, 04:07:53 PM »
Interesting article on the USGA website regarding "Course Care: Unreasonable Expectations."

http://www.usga.org/news/2012/August/Course-Care--Unreasonable-Expectations/

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2012, 04:09:37 PM »
I know it's a couple years away but I'm hoping the '14 open at #2 has an affect on expectations.  I hope the bouncing and bounding translates well to TV and more and more people can see how much fun firm and fast conditions can be.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2012, 04:44:50 PM »
Interesting article on the USGA website regarding "Course Care: Unreasonable Expectations."

http://www.usga.org/news/2012/August/Course-Care--Unreasonable-Expectations/

Interesting short piece on course standards. It would be great if golfers would start being realistic about day to day standards and the value for money ratio. Good find David.

Jon

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2012, 04:51:05 PM »
Interesting article on the USGA website regarding "Course Care: Unreasonable Expectations."

http://www.usga.org/news/2012/August/Course-Care--Unreasonable-Expectations/

Interesting short piece on course standards. It would be great if golfers would start being realistic about day to day standards and the value for money ratio. Good find David.

Jon

What's the name of your 9-holer in the Highlands?  Would like to see their MX habits.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2012, 05:03:26 PM »
RJ,

As you know, I love Wild Horse, but I'm shocked to hear that the membership or elements of the membership are lobbying for lush green conditions rather than F&F.

It's a golf course designed for F&F.

I would think that your greatest allies in your quest for F&F would be the original architects and their mentors.

Can't they be enlisted to champion F&F ?

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2012, 05:12:16 PM »
Interesting article on the USGA website regarding "Course Care: Unreasonable Expectations."

http://www.usga.org/news/2012/August/Course-Care--Unreasonable-Expectations/

Interesting short piece on course standards. It would be great if golfers would start being realistic about day to day standards and the value for money ratio. Good find David.

Jon

What's the name of your 9-holer in the Highlands?  Would like to see their MX habits.

Ben,

Brahan Golf Club, just outside Dingwall. What are MX habit?

Jon

www.brahangolfclub.ch use the union flag for english

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