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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
American fairway conditions
« on: August 05, 2012, 09:53:22 PM »
We have had more rain this summer in the Southeast than in the last few years.  And it has made me aware that maybe, just maybe, the American expectations and conditions of fairways are a bigger problem for golf in the USA than the greens and bunker issues.  We end up with a never ending circle of fertilize, water, mow... which means more electricity, more fertilizer , more labor for mowing, more wear on mowers, more fuel for mowers , more water with more sophisticated irrigation systems.   And this multiplies in our roughs even to the extent that the same fertilizer rates create a rough you cannot play from...
The fully allocated cost to a golf course when one doesn't water fairways is huge.  Would the American golfer accept less? 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2012, 09:59:19 PM »
Our fairways are emerald green and spongy, and unfortunately I think our members are pleased. 

Sam Morrow

Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2012, 10:28:13 PM »
My home course has firm and fast fairways, everyone hates it and thinks that I'm nuts for saying our superintendent is doing a good job.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2012, 11:02:29 PM »
Mike,

In our latest newsletter, it was announced that Palmetto would not overseed this winter.  Usually, we overseed three of every four winters, with the fourth used for bermuda health.  As you know, the transition periods--especially the spring--is very tough on bermuda when overseeded with rye.  The very mild winter down south made for a particularly strong rye stand, and a very tough transition.  In fact, the bermuda fairways are just now--in August!--recovering from the transition.  In the newsletter, our super did a phenomenal job listing the positives and negatives of overseeding.  He has my full support and I am proud that we have a guy that is willing to make tough decisions for the good of the course in the long run versus what looks good for a few months of the year.  I hope our membership receives the news well that we will not be following our normal cycle.  My fear is that one of the biggest times of the year for us is March/April.  Which is exactly the time of year that our rye overseeded cousin is putting on a ryegrass clinic across the river.  And we all know the affect they have on the golf world at large.  

My personal feeling is that maybe it would be good if we never overseeded.  It would save somewhere between 20-30K/yr and would provide much better late fall-early winter playing conditions.  It does open us up to cart traffic issues/dessicated turf in the winter, especially in a wet winter and early spring.  But these fairway expectation issues you speak of are really a waste if you ask me. 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 11:10:11 PM by Ben Sims »

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2012, 11:37:30 PM »
We have had more rain this summer in the Southeast than in the last few years.  And it has made me aware that maybe, just maybe, the American expectations and conditions of fairways are a bigger problem for golf in the USA than the greens and bunker issues.  We end up with a never ending circle of fertilize, water, mow... which means more electricity, more fertilizer , more labor for mowing, more wear on mowers, more fuel for mowers , more water with more sophisticated irrigation systems.   And this multiplies in our roughs even to the extent that the same fertilizer rates create a rough you cannot play from...
The fully allocated cost to a golf course when one doesn't water fairways is huge.  Would the American golfer accept less? 


When a friend of mine told Gordon Moir, the Links Superintendent at St. Andrews that she thought the fairways could use a little water and fertilizer, he said "Ma'am, we find that if we feed it and water it, it just makes a lot of extra work."

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Patrick_Mucci

Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2012, 11:59:06 PM »
Mike,

I alluded to the issue/problem earlier when i noticed that despite the heat I hadn't encountered any off colored fairways.

Not a trace of yellow/brown.

Certainly soil conditions influence cost, but I wonder, how much attention is paid to maximizing surface drainage in the interest of playability ?

Recently, I noticed what I would consider an inordinate number of hogback or spine fairways on some old and some newer courses.
It seemed to me as these hog backed fairways maximized the movement of surface water, as do sloped fairways.
But hasn't the modern trend been toward flatter fairways ?  Fairways which produce more even lies ?

Then I wondered if moving surface water, today, increased permitting issues

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2012, 09:49:12 AM »

Our fairways are emerald green and spongy, and unfortunately I think our members are pleased. 


Same at my place,but with a kicker--the Green Chairman told the Super that he never wanted to see any brown grass.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 12:57:04 PM »
It's amazing to me that most players relate good condition to being green. 

The last couple courses I've played have been green, but fairways have been quite spongy and ball marks are small craters in the greens.  It will take a massive shift in the the thinking of the majority of golf playing population to change conditioning practices.


David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 01:00:41 PM »
It's a shame, but most golfers simply want plush and green. I could live with the softer fairways if the fronts of the greens were firmed up. There's nothing worse than coming across a hole that's designed to have the ball played on the ground that is too soft to allow for the proper kick.

Our #17 at Deal is a perfect example. There's a large kicker slope to the left of the green that should be used to kick the ball onto the green as a "smart" shot, but the fairway is ALWAYS too soft to allow a kick. The ball plugs there and it is one of the most routinely annoying shots I have ever seen.

Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2012, 01:37:46 PM »
I love watching good players play our tight firm fescue fairways for the first time.  They step up assuming that one can just dial in a yardage and pull a club out for their typical aerial game only to be confounded by the realities of a tight lie, and carry distance being only one component of the calculation.  I don't get it.  Color blindness aside...Most average golfers could certainly use the extra roll and most good players could use the challenge of having to do something other than hit off a perfect driving range carpet to a specific distance target.  
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 01:39:36 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tom Ferrell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 02:21:43 PM »
Mike -

I know I'm preaching to the choir, put it's called a golf COURSE, not a golf GARDEN.

My maintenance creed is that - AS CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE - the maintenance should...

a.  reflect the architect's design
b.  reflect the local weather and climate conditions
     - playing soft and moist during hot and dry weather is - as the kids say today - dumb and wrong
     - in GB&I (for the most part), you play f&f baked-out when it's hot and dry and airball when it's grey and wet

To my mind, a course that more closely resembles its environment, both in terms of land features and climate conditions, is one with good maintenance practices.  But somehow we as a game and an industry have sought to create a controlled set of playing conditions when as close as possible (within reason) to wild and natural state is the true ideal.
 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2012, 02:32:46 PM »
It's a shame, but most golfers simply want plush and green. I could live with the softer fairways if the fronts of the greens were firmed up. There's nothing worse than coming across a hole that's designed to have the ball played on the ground that is too soft to allow for the proper kick.

Our #17 at Deal is a perfect example. There's a large kicker slope to the left of the green that should be used to kick the ball onto the green as a "smart" shot, but the fairway is ALWAYS too soft to allow a kick. The ball plugs there and it is one of the most routinely annoying shots I have ever seen.



David,

FIRST, get rid of the fountain.
You can replace it with underwater bubblers that are just as effective.

SECOND, check out the irrigation heads around the green, in terms of their throw patterns, often they're the problem with soft approaches.
The same can be said of many greenside bunkers that are always wet.

THIRD, is there a prevailing wind that blows toward the tee, if so, that can be part of the problem when combined with the irrigation heads.

Today, it seems that fewer and fewer golfers understand the relationship between maintainance and playability.

The picture you posted seems to indicate the membership's desires.


RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2012, 07:16:56 AM »
Lowering the cost of maintaining Fairways is the most surefire way to lower course maintenance costs, however I think alot of clubs are reluctant to do so because the fairway is the most visible area of turf on the course and acts as the advertisement if you will for most clubs.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2012, 12:50:47 PM »
I just played in a tournament with bluegrass fairways that were firm and tinged brown.  It was a wonderful, firm playing surface. I did not have a bad lie in 36 holes. 

I cannot imagine any private club in the Twin Cities using such grass.

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2012, 03:22:26 PM »
Some of the new low-cut bluegrass varieties get excellent reviews, a more cost effective alternative to bentgrass fairways I'm told.

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2012, 04:03:18 PM »
I can’t help but chime in on this one, even though I realize that Mike knows only too well any point I may happen to make.  The short answer is NO!   American golfers won’t accept anything but lush fairways and as much lush conditioning as they can afford.

Let me give you an example.  Our course is sand-based and located at about 3300 ft. in the high desert of southern Idaho where we get less than 10 in. of rain annually.  We blow out the irrigation system in late October and recharge it in mid-March.  This winter was exceptionally mild with a lot of play.  Late fall and early spring the course plays a little like a links, very firm and fast (December & January like a frozen parking lot).
  
Our super here for 22 years died suddenly last fall.  The new guy didn’t start until it was time to turn on the irrigation.  We discovered, to our horror, that the central control programming of the irrigation system was basically gone—either by sabotage or because they had been getting the job done by smoke and mirrors all these years.  The irrigation guy was gone, too (fired late last season by the old super for incompetence and gross insubordination).  The new super had to start from scratch on an antique system that was poor at best.  The combination of wear and tear from winter traffic, the difficulties of hiring and training a new staff, a super who had never worked on a sand-based golf course, breaks from a poor fall blow out, and the complete reprogramming of the system created sort of a perfect storm of problems this spring.  Add in a mild spring with no rain and lots of wind.

Not by choice or design, the course played like a links all spring.  I loved it, my favorite conditions.  At no time was it unplayable, the greens and fairways were fast.  However, the membership went into full revolt, formed little groups of their golf pals threatening to leave for other courses, and we had all of our core golfers worked up into a frenzy of discontent.  This is same membership that plays here because they believe this is the best course in the region.  It took us several months to get caught up, but we were never where we should be heading into the hot weather July—September.  Despite our best PR efforts keeping our golfers informed about what was going on and finally giving them the conditions they desire—lush green fairways and soft greens—I’m not sure we’ll ever undue the damage done by those two months of revolt and discontent.
 
During this spring, I happened to play every other course in our market.  They all had a slow start coming out of winter, but none as bad and prolonged as ours.  They fertilized, punched, sprayed, poured on the water, mowed around the clock, and eventually achieved the conditioning expected by golfers in our market:  lush, green, and soft.  Personally, I was struck by how much more fun it was to play our fast and firm course than the other venues.  Not that we were trying to present the course this way; no, we were trying to achieve the opposite and give our golfers what they wanted, but the perfect storm made it impossible.  I knew enough to keep my mouth shut and did everything possible to get the new guy up to speed in meeting the expectations of our golfers and market:  a level of conditioning that I’d call perfect for the vanity handicap golfer or, in other words, as easy as possible.

Understand, this is an affordable golf market.  We all maintain our courses accordingly and all have relatively low maintenance budgets.  In the case of this course, Canyon Springs, we happen to have the bones to present this course as many of us on this board would prefer—fast and firm, plenty of wind, and lots of ground options on nearly every hole.  We aren’t a pseudo links and never claim to be.  We’re just an average American course in a spectacular setting.  Most golfers use carts, and although we’re very walkable, I’m certain we wouldn’t survive without the cart revenue.  I’m also certain that if we renovated this course and presented it with the conditioning along the lines preferred by the participants on this site, if we made it a really good course and utilized our bones to full potential, we would be committing business suicide in our market.  Golfers that pay the bills around here don’t want fast and firm, tight lies, firm greens, a pallet of colors including brown, challenging conditions, etc. etc.  That’s a fact this season has taught me like no other.  Oh yeah, I’m also a deranged lunatic and all of our troubles this year are my fault because I’ve tried to educate myself about other ways to play the game.   And, because it’s my course and I can run it like I want, I have made the mistake of trying to pass along a little of what I have learned in the completely absurd attempt to educate golfers about other facets of the game.  Lesson learned, I hope we survive.  
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 04:42:15 PM by Dave McCollum »

Dane Hawker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2012, 04:29:54 PM »
Some of the new low-cut bluegrass varieties get excellent reviews, a more cost effective alternative to bentgrass fairways I'm told.

I have been playing with Colonial bentgrass fairways. I have these and ryegrass fairways and I believe if we want to reduce water, fertiliser and chemicals this will be the way forward.

Eric Strulowitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2012, 06:38:31 PM »
Mike -

I know I'm preaching to the choir, put it's called a golf COURSE, not a golf GARDEN.

My maintenance creed is that - AS CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE - the maintenance should...

a.  reflect the architect's design
b.  reflect the local weather and climate conditions
     - playing soft and moist during hot and dry weather is - as the kids say today - dumb and wrong
     - in GB&I (for the most part), you play f&f baked-out when it's hot and dry and airball when it's grey and wet

To my mind, a course that more closely resembles its environment, both in terms of land features and climate conditions, is one with good maintenance practices.  But somehow we as a game and an industry have sought to create a controlled set of playing conditions when as close as possible (within reason) to wild and natural state is the true ideal.
 

Man, this is spot on!!!!!

Unfortunatlet, the average golfer, when judging a course or considering one for potential membership, presentation is paramount.  And being
"green" and lush is at the top of the list.  A course with brown spots is looked down upon.  My course is lush to the point of ridiculous.  It presents like a painting, but very little run on the fairways and the rough is so thick and healthy, that it has caused many lost balls and added at least 15 minutes to each round.  The rough I play these days is beyond penal, I hope they cut it soon.

Yes, it is a golf course, but most uniformed golfers want a garden.  They have no comprehension of the costs and effort to maintain such lushness,  brown means "Cow pasture".

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2012, 06:52:12 PM »
One small problem to consider though is that in GB&I if the turf bakes out it'll be stable when it's dormant or extremely dry.  However if you take the cool season turf types and bake them out, most won't recover quickly and if these type conditions succumb to torrential rains, say the kind you can get on the eastern seaboard during hurricane season then you get some erosion and washout potential.  Not always the case or an argument in favor of overwatering but keeping cool season grasses dry and brown does have some risk, risk alot of clubs and supers may not be willing to take.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2012, 12:08:34 AM »
One small problem to consider though is that in GB&I if the turf bakes out it'll be stable when it's dormant or extremely dry.  However if you take the cool season turf types and bake them out, most won't recover quickly

RDecker,

what type of turf do you think is growing in GB&I if not cool season ???

Jon

Jeff_Stettner

Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2012, 03:28:45 AM »
From a local Yelp review of a country club... These wet conditions are consistent at many local courses (despite the total, and I mean total, lack of rain). Maybe this is just what's desired?



      5.0 star rating
      8/7/2012

      I got to play here during a public play day in August.  With the drought we have had all summer I was expecting the course to be in worse shape than it was.  It was actually quite amazing.  They managed to keep their greens as soft as can be.  A 30 yard chip shot would leave a 2 inch ball mark in the green!  I played this course better than I have at pretty much any other course in town.  Maybe I was just on my game, but maybe it was just because all the fairways and rough were kept up so well?  Either way, they don't do public play days very often, but keep an eye out for them, and check it out!  You will definitely have a great time!  Best part was we were the only ones out there it felt like.  We didn't run into one person in front of us the whole time.  Great course!

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2012, 08:47:57 AM »
I can’t help but chime in on this one, even though I realize that Mike knows only too well any point I may happen to make.  The short answer is NO!   American golfers won’t accept anything but lush fairways and as much lush conditioning as they can afford.

Let me give you an example.  Our course is sand-based and located at about 3300 ft. in the high desert of southern Idaho where we get less than 10 in. of rain annually.  We blow out the irrigation system in late October and recharge it in mid-March.  This winter was exceptionally mild with a lot of play.  Late fall and early spring the course plays a little like a links, very firm and fast (December & January like a frozen parking lot).
  
Our super here for 22 years died suddenly last fall.  The new guy didn’t start until it was time to turn on the irrigation.  We discovered, to our horror, that the central control programming of the irrigation system was basically gone—either by sabotage or because they had been getting the job done by smoke and mirrors all these years.  The irrigation guy was gone, too (fired late last season by the old super for incompetence and gross insubordination).  The new super had to start from scratch on an antique system that was poor at best.  The combination of wear and tear from winter traffic, the difficulties of hiring and training a new staff, a super who had never worked on a sand-based golf course, breaks from a poor fall blow out, and the complete reprogramming of the system created sort of a perfect storm of problems this spring.  Add in a mild spring with no rain and lots of wind.

Not by choice or design, the course played like a links all spring.  I loved it, my favorite conditions.  At no time was it unplayable, the greens and fairways were fast.  However, the membership went into full revolt, formed little groups of their golf pals threatening to leave for other courses, and we had all of our core golfers worked up into a frenzy of discontent.  This is same membership that plays here because they believe this is the best course in the region.  It took us several months to get caught up, but we were never where we should be heading into the hot weather July—September.  Despite our best PR efforts keeping our golfers informed about what was going on and finally giving them the conditions they desire—lush green fairways and soft greens—I’m not sure we’ll ever undue the damage done by those two months of revolt and discontent.
 
During this spring, I happened to play every other course in our market.  They all had a slow start coming out of winter, but none as bad and prolonged as ours.  They fertilized, punched, sprayed, poured on the water, mowed around the clock, and eventually achieved the conditioning expected by golfers in our market:  lush, green, and soft.  Personally, I was struck by how much more fun it was to play our fast and firm course than the other venues.  Not that we were trying to present the course this way; no, we were trying to achieve the opposite and give our golfers what they wanted, but the perfect storm made it impossible.  I knew enough to keep my mouth shut and did everything possible to get the new guy up to speed in meeting the expectations of our golfers and market:  a level of conditioning that I’d call perfect for the vanity handicap golfer or, in other words, as easy as possible.

Understand, this is an affordable golf market.  We all maintain our courses accordingly and all have relatively low maintenance budgets.  In the case of this course, Canyon Springs, we happen to have the bones to present this course as many of us on this board would prefer—fast and firm, plenty of wind, and lots of ground options on nearly every hole.  We aren’t a pseudo links and never claim to be.  We’re just an average American course in a spectacular setting.  Most golfers use carts, and although we’re very walkable, I’m certain we wouldn’t survive without the cart revenue.  I’m also certain that if we renovated this course and presented it with the conditioning along the lines preferred by the participants on this site, if we made it a really good course and utilized our bones to full potential, we would be committing business suicide in our market.  Golfers that pay the bills around here don’t want fast and firm, tight lies, firm greens, a pallet of colors including brown, challenging conditions, etc. etc.  That’s a fact this season has taught me like no other.  Oh yeah, I’m also a deranged lunatic and all of our troubles this year are my fault because I’ve tried to educate myself about other ways to play the game.   And, because it’s my course and I can run it like I want, I have made the mistake of trying to pass along a little of what I have learned in the completely absurd attempt to educate golfers about other facets of the game.  Lesson learned, I hope we survive.  



Dave

It is always nice to get a view from the trenches.  Best of luck.

RDecker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2012, 02:24:26 PM »
Jon, the GB&I turf may be similar to our cool season grasses , particularly were fescues are used in the rough or some cases fairways. however the soil types may have a much larger impact.  Firm and fast is much better used and safer to maintain for long time periods on sandy, well drained soils.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2012, 02:42:44 PM »
Jon,
It would be helpful to illustrate the dramatic differences in our weather patterns. Here is what we have been dealing with this summer. Could you provide an illustration of what your summer weather patterns are in your part of the world?


Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: American fairway conditions
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2012, 04:13:36 PM »
Jon,

I just ran the numbers and your average Hi in July was 63 F and your average Lo was 51. You had 2.75 inches of rainfall. Judging from how often you get a nice little shot of rain I doubt that you even need an irrigation system. Your soil temperatures probably never reach 60 degrees there. Your highest temperature for the month of July was 69 degrees!

There is no risk of your turf ever baking out or experiencing anything even remotely approaching the stress that turf experiences in America.

Hopefully Inverness is where greenkeepers go when they get to heaven.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 06:24:59 AM by Bradley Anderson »

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