Is Firestone the best course that came out of the "Dark Ages"?

[Dan Herrmann]

Is Firestone the best course that came out of the "Dark Ages"?  What would be better?

I count it in the "dark ages" because RTJ Sr redesigned the 1929 layout in 1960.

(Definition of Dark Ages, courtesy of Ran:
1949-1985: The dark ages of course design and few courses are profiled from this period. The vast majority of the courses built during the Trent Jones era were based on length, contain little variety and offer few options. Pete Dye led the charge out of this bleak period of bland courses after his trip to Scotland in the 1960s.)

[Mark Bourgeois]

You're saying it's better than The Golf Club...and Harbour Town?

[Josh Tarble]

I'd also put Spyglass, Muirfield Village and Crooked Stick ahead of Firestone. I'm sure there are seerl others as well.

Granted I've never been there, but what I've seen in pictures hasn't been incredible. Very good but far from the best of that period.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I think Laurel Valley(Dick Wilson, 1959) or even the 1950 RTJ redesign of Oakland Hills(original Ross, 1918) would be up there. Also, nearby you,  don't forget the 1959 William Gordon redesign of Flynn's Lancaster CC. Also, Harbour Town (DYE/Nicklaus?, 1967)

I disagree that the Dark Ages ended in 1985. Golfweek ends its Top 100 Classics in 1960.
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/13/2012-golfweeks-best-classic-courses/

 I disagree with that as well. I think the Modern Era started with Harbour Town in 1967.

[Dan Herrmann]

Steve, Gordon may have done work at Lancaster, but it still has all the bones of a classic Flynn gem.

Mark/Josh - I honestly don't know if Firestone is the best - that's why I asked.  Thought it would be a catalyst for good discussion.

Personally, from what I see of Firestone (South), it doesn't seem like a course that'd be very enjoyable.  Reminds me of having to paint the house - a chore

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I never played Wilson's original Doral Blue but when it opened, it was highly rated.

[jeffwarne]

I never played Wilson's original Doral Blue but when it opened, it was highly rated.

That's why they they call it the dark age

[Josh Tarble]

Dan,

Perhaps if it isn't the best, possibly the poster child? Just seems like a long, difficult boring track.  Lots of thick rough and water.  Seems like the exact thing most courses were trying to accomplish suing that era.  (long and difficult that is...ended p being boring)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Shaffer,

Doral was a terrific course, as was Pine Tree and other Dick Wilson designs

Dan Hermann,

Firestone is enjoyable to play.

That's the problem with making judgements when you've never set foot on the golf course.
You really can't get a feel for play nor the golfer's eye's look at the golf course
It's playing very fast.

I don't know that I would include Dye's work as part of the "Dark Ages"

[Joe Leenheer]

The rough at Firestone is only long during the tourney.

The greens are always good, but kept at a more playable speed for member play.

Most tees that the pros play are only used during the tourney (especially 2,7,8,9,13,16).

The course favors no particular shot shape, but rewards those that can hit both.

I enjoy playing the south course...

My only qualm falls upon the par 3's. They are dull and forgettable.

[Tom MacWood]

Dark ages?

[Ken Fry]

Dan, I don't mean this to be a thread jack.  Just a question to those who have played all the courses at Firestone.

Over the years, many people have commented to me they prefer the North Course to the South Course.  The South Course is very challenging and the North Course couldn't handle spectators but many felt the North was the better all around course.

Comments?

Ken

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick,
For many of us, TV is the only way we'll see these courses unless we buy a ticket to a tournament.

Tom MacWood - do you think there wasn't a "dark age" of GCA here in the States? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
For many of us, TV is the only way we'll see these courses unless we buy a ticket to a tournament.

Dan,

Tell me how you interpolate the play of the golf course from the back tees, by the best golfers in the world, as viewed from the television cameras depicting same, to play of the golf course from the members tees ?

For example, how would # 16 play for someone like me ?

Ditto # 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, 17 and 18 ?

Tom MacWood - do you think there wasn't a "dark age" of GCA here in the States? 

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick - Honestly, I don't have a clue. I'm just going by what I see on TV, which could be wrong.

But the question stands - Is Firestone (South) the best course that came out of the dark ages (as defined by Ran)?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Well, if Ran's words are to define the "discussion" then perhaps his words can close it: The Golf Club is "the finest design built from 1935 to Sand Hills."

[BHoover]

I grew up 10 minutes from Firestone, and I've been going to the tournament since the early 90s, so I'm obviously biased in favor of Firestone. That said, Firestone can't hold a candl to The Golf Club, at least from an architectural standpoint. So if the question is, which is the greatest course from the "Dark Ages", then the answer cannot be Firestone. It may or may not be The Golf Club, but it isn't the South course at Firestone.

All that doesn't change the fact that Firestone is a great tournament course and hosts a great event each year (something that cannot be said about many courses, including The Golf Club). I also had a lot of fun the first time I played the South course. so, I will always defend the course and it has a special place in my heart.

[Billsteele]

After The Golf Club, I would put NCR's South Course ahead of Firestone South in the "Dark Ages" courses of Ohio. It has more variety and, to me, is much more interesting than Firestone South. I also have never used the word "enjoyable" to describe Firestone South. It is a great test but lacks any real charm. I believe that is why many prefer the North or, in Pat Mucci's case (not to say that he is alone in this assessment), the West. The South just does not make me want to run right out and play another 18...The Golf Club and NCR South do.

[Michael George]

Depends on what you are looking for in a golf course.  If you are looking for the finest test of golf (which is a wholly legitimate thing to look for in a golf course), Firestone is maybe the best that I have ever played.  I think it certainly defines how well you are playing better than any course I have played, including Oakmont and Oakland Hills.   If you are asking about a daily course that is fun to play, there are many that I would rank ahead of Firestone.  

Unfortunately, this site is another example of the groupthink problem here, where many fail to recognize that you can have different styles of golf courses.   Per some, every course has to be a minimalist design with humps and bumps (preferably on fescue) that provides "strategic" issues.  Listen, I love that kind of golf too, more than penal golf, but I can also appreciate penal golf courses and see some of them as great golf courses.  

Best example:  if Oakmont was built in the so-called "dark ages", it would be universally criticized on this site as it is as penal and straightforward in its routing (1, 2, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 all face the same direction) as any golf course that I have ever played (including Firestone South)  But since it was built at the right time, it is universally praised.  Which shows you that many are just trying to say things that others will agree with, rather than providing independent, educated opinions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,

You also have to remember that Firestone was especially prepared for this event.

The fairway mowing patterns, the fast & firm conditions, the pace of the greens, are all geared toward four (4) days of the tournament.

Those conditions, as seen on TV are NOT the conditions you get on a daily basis.

Dan,

I don't know how you define "best", so I can't answer your question.

[Philip Caccamise]

After The Golf Club, I would put NCR's South Course ahead of Firestone South in the "Dark Ages" courses of Ohio. It has more variety and, to me, is much more interesting than Firestone South. I also have never used the word "enjoyable" to describe Firestone South. It is a great test but lacks any real charm. I believe that is why many prefer the North or, in Pat Mucci's case (not to say that he is alone in this assessment), the West. The South just does not make me want to run right out and play another 18...The Golf Club and NCR South do.

Was going to post the exact same thing. Great golf course enjoyable for many different levels of player. As an aside, they have a very affordable nonresident membership which I've pondered joining for a few years (it's about a 2 hour drive for me.)

Ironically, I'm wearing an NCR shirt right now!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Philip,

What I like about Firestone is that you get three (3) distinctly different golf courses to play.

For those who haven't played it, try the West course and tell me what you think.

[Philip Caccamise]

Philip,

What I like about Firestone is that you get three (3) distinctly different golf courses to play.

For those who haven't played it, try the West course and tell me what you think.

I'd love to be a member there, that's for sure. To be fair in evaluation- I have not played Firestone, just walked it for the tournament multiple times. I personally thought it was great but just love NCR.

NCR North is a nice companion course, too. A short, open very scoreable and walkable course.

[C. Squier]

I'd think Prairie Dunes would be in the conversation 

[Matthew Petersen]

The following are the courses listed in Golfweek's Top 200 both classic and modern that were opened within the "dark ages" timeperiod as defined by Ran (1949-1985):

Lancaster CC, 1959
NCR CC (South), 1954
Deepdale GC, 1956
Laurel Valley, 1959
Dunes G&BC, 1949
Champions (Cypress Creek), 1959
Point O'Woods, 1958
Saucon Valley (Grace), 1957
Shady Oaks, 1958
Torrey Pines (South), 1957
CC of Florida, 1956
Bayonet GC, 1954
Pauma Valley CC, 1959

The Golf Club, 1967
Muirfield Village, 1974
Spyglass Hill, 1966
Honors Course, 1983
TPC Sawgrass, 1981
Castle Pines GC, 1981
Desert Forest GC, 1962
Harbour Town, 1970
Oak Tree, 1975
Butler National, 1974
Long Cove, 1982
Eugene CC, 1967
Crooked Stick, 1966
Jupiter Hills CC, 1970
Hazeltine National, 1962
Shoal Creek, 1976
Saucon Valley (Weyhill), 1969
Cog Hill 4, 1964
Atlanta Athletic Club, 167
Grandfather, 168
Stanwich, 1962
Greenville CC, 1970
Pine Tree GC, 1962
Mauna Kea, 1966
Bidermann GC, 1965
Desert Highlands, 1984
Tamarron, 1975


For what it's worth, GW lists Firestone South as 1929, meaning they don't consider it wholly a part of the time period. Even if it were, to me Firestone South doesn't touch several other RTJ layouts. And as you can see from the list above, even if you remove Dye and Nicklaus courses that perhaps shouldn't be considered "dark ages" despite their year of opening, there's still plenty of competition.