[Peter Pallotta]

Play it as it lies. Is there any single aspect of the game that is more reflective of the challenges, joys and learnings that are at the heart of golf? Tonight, I find myself thinking not, i.e. I find myself thinking that playing it as it lies is the very soul of the game, the single most vital experience that golf affords us, and that which makes the game unique. The bad bounce, the unlucky break, a wrong decision/choice, too bold/aggressive a play, the vagaries of nature (wind and sand and tall patchy native grasses) -- all these engender the requirement to play it as it lies. In turn, the wonderful recovery, the compounded error, the smart and modest pitch out, the call on our skill and imagination, the humility the game forces upon us -- all these emerge out of the same ethos to play it as it lies. (Was it Harry Vardon who said "The game is master of us all").  And so: are many of the world's finest courses precisely those that very often call on the golfer to play it as it lies, and yet at the same time -- and almost as often, but not quite -- provide him with a chance to experience wonder and imagination, and to develop humility? On another thread, Mark B mentioned both Pinehurst #2 and RM Composite as two undeniably great courses; and it struck me that it may be because both courses/designs embody the play it as it lies ethos so very very well. The Old Course is another wonderful example of that same ethos (but then, TOC is the answer to just about any question ever raised around here!); I'm convinced that the old Scots who created TOC felt deep in their hard-nosed yet pious bones the value and efficacy of training the human spirit to play it as it lies.

Just thinking out loud a little tonight. What do you think?

Peter  

[Dan King]

It's a shame that so few golfers even know what you are talking about. They are so used to getting their hands on the ball, they can't even imagine a game where you keep your hands off the ball. The USGA and R&A also have decided the whole concept of playing the ball where it lies is antiquated and golfers will no longer stand for it.

My friends and I used to play a game where you were never allowed to touch the ball from the time you drop it on the tee until the time you pick it up out of the hole. It was the only rules, play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it. We also would play a medal play with similar rules. Touch the ball during the play of the hole and you were DQed.

Cheers,
Dan King

You are meant to play the ball as it lies, a fact that may help to touch on your own objective approach to life.
 --Grantland Rice

[William_G]

play it as it lies works well on sand based courses year round

bags w/o kick stands also work well on these non-muddy courses

sand based golf courses are the best

[Jason Topp]

playing the ball as it lies and course as you find is is the heart of the game

[Dan King]

Jason Topp writes:
playing the ball as it lies and course as you find is is the heart of the game

Someone needs to explain that to golfers -- and especially the governing bodies.

When was the last time any of you played a golf hole without touching the ball? If playing the ball as it lies is the heart of the game, there are an awful lot of golfers lacking heart.

Cheers,
Dan King

The rules are based on three fundamental principles: That the golfer must play the ball as it lies, play the course as he finds it, and finally, where neither of the first two principles can apply, settle all questions by fair play.
 --Joseph C. Dey, Jr., 1956

[Sam Morrow]

playing the ball as it lies and course as you find is is the heart of the game

If I knew how to post a picture I'd throw the ball on rake pic at Fallen Oak at you.

[Dan King]

Sam Morrow writes:
If I knew how to post a picture I'd throw the ball on rake pic at Fallen Oak at you.

Just wondering: Did the rake sneak up and get under the ball, or did you hit the ball onto the rake?

Cheers,
Dan King

Ninety precent of golf is played from the shoulders up.
 --Deacon Palmer

[Sam Morrow]

Sam Morrow writes:
If I knew how to post a picture I'd throw the ball on rake pic at Fallen Oak at you.

Just wondering: Did the rake sneak up and get under the ball, or did you hit the ball onto the rake?

Cheers,
Dan King

Ninety precent of golf is played from the shoulders up.
 --Deacon Palmer

He hit the ball into the rake, he should have hit the fairway.

[Adrian_Stiff]

You need to lift clean and place on 100% of UK courses at some stage in the year. If people could not remove the mud from their ball during play it would be another reason why people would leave the game.

Nothing more annoying that hitting your ball down the middle of a fairway and it lying in a divot either, but someone will say thats good as well.

[Tim Johnson]

The pros played lift, clean & place at the Canadian Open at Hamilton last week on Thursday & Friday. They tore the course apart, the game is not the same if you place the ball down.

Your buddies place the ball down? Play them for money and dont let them touch the ball........money in the bank!

[Mac Plumart]

I'm with you 100% Peter!

I love the comment on humility.

[David Harshbarger]

There's nothing more annoying to me than seeing people playing winter rules, moreso in the summer.

Other than that, when else do you regularly touch your ball in play except marking on the green?  Personally, I generally do not mark my ball unless it's a courtesy to others.  That whole lining up the markings on the ball thing seems as contrived as the plumb bob, and taking the time to do that seems a waste.

[Tim Martin]

A sign outside the golf shop at Stile`s and Van Kleek`s Taconic reads "No Preferred Lies-We Play Golf Here". What more do you need to know?

[Terry Lavin]

A sign outside the golf shop at Stile`s and Van Kleek`s Taconic reads "No Preferred Lies-We Play Golf Here". What more do you need to know?

That's pithy and perfect.

[Ronald Montesano]

This is such a loaded topic. When things are normal, you play the ball down.

At Leatherstocking, I walked into a bunker where an ass had tramped around, braying and snorting, leaving hoofprints all over the place. I was at the absolute bottom of the one of those hoofprints, with an absolutely unplayable shot. What do you do in that situation?

If your idea of an enjoyable round of golf is hitting a mud-spattered ball off rain-swollen grounds, don't touch the ball...ever...never.

I'm not a 100%-er concerning anything. I know from 46 years of experience (and will hopefully have another 46+ to confirm my suspicion) that there are always exceptions. I know that Taconic gets wet like any other place and I DARE them to suggest that they never play preferred lies, under extreme conditions.

[Dan King]

Ronald Montesano writes:
This is such a loaded topic. When things are normal, you play the ball down.

Golf was intended to be played with the ball down. If you play the USGA/R&A hybrid of golf/hand ball, it is easy to understand why people think playing the ball down is one of the options to playing golf, but it shouldn't be -- it should be the essence of golf.

At Leatherstocking, I walked into a bunker where an ass had tramped around, braying and snorting, leaving hoofprints all over the place. I was at the absolute bottom of the one of those hoofprints, with an absolutely unplayable shot. What do you do in that situation?

Who hit it into that bunker? Accept responsibilities for your action. If the ball is somewhere that doesn't allow you to play toward the hole, then don't play toward the hole. Golf is about accepting responsibility for the shots you make, and then learning to deal with situations you never faced before.  Golf used to have a large mental test proponent, but the USGA/R&A has decided that just discourages "golfers" from playing.

If your idea of an enjoyable round of golf is hitting a mud-spattered ball off rain-swollen grounds, don't touch the ball...ever...never.

It's a test. Tests are not always 100 percent enjoyable.

Cheers,
Dan King

There is one man who ought never appear on a golfing green. And this is the good man. Let him remain away. That immaculate creature whose life is spent in seeing his neighbour's faults and comparing them with his own wonderful perfection, is quite out of place amongst golfers. They are all men, not saints. Therefore let the Pharisee, whose pretensions to superiority we will never dispute, keep at home.
  --Dr. Proudfoot,  1890

[Dan Kelly]

Peter --

With you (and Dan King, Jason Topp, et al.) all the way.

Was going to tease you a bit about the Scots' "hard-nosed bones," but I like the idea too much to quibble!

Dan

[Ronald Montesano]

Dan King,

Your literal-interpreation-or-the-highway zealotry is on full display today. I'll rebut, as you are a worthy counterpart.

You seem to have parked your Winnebago on the "who hit the ball there?" point. It's flawed. If I precede you (and you are in the last group) in an event and create an unequal playing field for you, can you resort to the "who hit the ball there?" excuse? If you are to be punished for hitting a ball in the bunker, fair enough. Shouldn't the goat that failed to wrap its hooves around the rake be penalized as well? More so, I would suggest. After all, your shot into the bunker affected only you; his tramping around will affect all those who come after.

I do like how you couched your opinion at the end "it should be" the essence of golf.

Nowhere in the rules of golf is the term "masochistic exercise" expressly written. Golf in the isles does not involve standing water on rainy days, as the sandy soil drains the fallen water away. Golf played over farmlands and rocky subsoils does not allow for the same water response, so one should not expect the same golfer response above the soil.

I'll read on, but I won't comment further. Ironically, unlike one of my good friends, I have no problem with the divot rule. It seems implausible that a perfectly-played and placed shot, into the fairway (the way was meant to be fair, in Dan King parlance) should fall victim to a divot, while the turf 2 inches left, right, back and front would concede a perfect perch.

I believe that in 97% of situations, the ball should be played down. Even winter time allows for playing the ball down. I suspect that those in favor of the 100% rule are stricken with the "sitting on my ass, conceiving a notion that works in theory but not in practice" disease that afflicts many of us as we age. Same people also contract "zero tolerance"-itis from time to time.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Some of you guys would certainly bust a golf club pretty quick if you were in charge.

Nothing wrong in playing the ball as it lies if the conditions are good, but in Northern Europe thats about 50% of the time. Ronald has it right.

[Dan King]

Ronald Montesano writes:
Nowhere in the rules of golf is the term "masochistic exercise" expressly written.

This is the big difference between our attitude about golf. You think of playing the ball down as masochism. I see it as taking responsibility for my action and as both a physical and mental test.  The rules of golf agree with you, mostly because they have decided they want golf to be a big tent -- the more golfers, the more money for them. I'll accept folks that accept what golf is, but would rather not see people show up who would rather change the game than fix their own deficiencies.

You seem to have parked your Winnebago on the "who hit the ball there?" point. It's flawed. If I precede you (and you are in the last group) in an event and create an unequal playing field for you, can you resort to the "who hit the ball there?"

So you will only accept responsibility for your actions if you can't pin blame on someone else?  You have to be 100 percent responsible or forget about it?

You hit the ball there. See what you can do with the sorry situation. Your answer is to pick the ball up and give yourself a perfect lie.  Golfs answer should be to figure out how to make the most of a bad situation.

I've never understood why the perfect lie brigade bothers with outdoor golf. Playing golf outdoor means you are going to face all sort of situations you might never have faced before. I love that about golf. I can stand on the first tee with no idea the types of tests I will face over the next 18 holes. For you, why not just play at a driving range?

Adrian_Stiff writes:
Some of you guys would certainly bust a golf club pretty quick if you were in charge.

Or we will have a club of golfers, rather than handball players. I can understand why people trying to make money off golf would want the big tent, and are willing to dilute the product to appeal to a large number of people. I've never understood why golfers are so willing to play such an inferior product.

Cheers,
Dan King

In golf, humiliations are the essence of the game.
  --Alistair Cooke

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
Some of you guys would certainly bust a golf club pretty quick if you were in charge.

Or we will have a club of golfers, rather than handball players. I can understand why people trying to make money off golf would want the big tent, and are willing to dilute the product to appeal to a large number of people. I've never understood why golfers are so willing to play such an inferior product.

[/quote]Dan, you would have the inferior product in 99% of golfers minds if you did not allow lifting, cleaning and placing the ball under wet conditions where the ball pitches and gathers mud. This is just another case of the GCA minor opinion raising its head again, and you would have a very small club of golfers. You just cant run golf courses as purely or rigidly as maybe you once could.

[William_G]

The pros played lift, clean & place at the Canadian Open at Hamilton last week on Thursday & Friday. They tore the course apart, the game is not the same if you place the ball down.

Your buddies place the ball down? Play them for money and dont let them touch the ball........money in the bank!

it's a job for the pro's, the "golf itself" is secondary

[Dan King]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
Dan, you would have the inferior product in 99% of golfers minds if you did not allow lifting, cleaning and placing the ball under wet conditions where the ball pitches and gathers mud.

You misunderstand. I don't think golfers should ever touch the ball during the play of a hole. I'm not talking just when it gets mud on it, but ever.

Humans are generally weak. Give them a shortcut and they will take it. Golf keeps giving players more and more shortcuts, hoping someday golf will be a major sport. Unfortunately by constantly giving golfers an easier way out, they have weakened the game and not increased its popularity. They are stuck with an inferior product that still isn't popular enough for their tastes.

Cheers,
Dan King

It consists in pitting little balls into little holes with instruments ill adapted to the purpose.
 --Horace Hutchinson

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
Dan, you would have the inferior product in 99% of golfers minds if you did not allow lifting, cleaning and placing the ball under wet conditions where the ball pitches and gathers mud.

You misunderstand. I don't think golfers should ever touch the ball during the play of a hole. I'm not talking just when it gets mud on it, but ever.

Humans are generally weak. Give them a shortcut and they will take it. Golf keeps giving players more and more shortcuts, hoping someday golf will be a major sport. Unfortunately by constantly giving golfers an easier way out, they have weakened the game and not increased its popularity. They are stuck with an inferior product that still isn't popular enough for their tastes.

Cheers,
Dan King

It consists in pitting little balls into little holes with instruments ill adapted to the purpose.
 --Horace Hutchinson

I think todays product is vastly superior, they have made the game fairer and stronger and it is a major sport, so clearly theres no point in continuing this discussion.

[Colin Macqueen]

Absolutely Peter.

However as I am a conciliatory and compromising chap, and at the risk of upsetting the King, I am happy to concede that the ball can be picked up and cleaned once. This sop being allowed when the ball first comes to rest on the green. Putting with globs of mud on ones balls can be tricky notwithstanding the Scotmen's " hard-nosed yet pious bones".

I suffer humiliation but never defeat when I insist that the local rule at my club of putting out, once started, be adhered to. Insisting that the ball not be touched, marked or realigned, in the process of putting out, brings forth cries of dismay and disdain and ultimately disobedience! I am "cryit doon"

This cross I bear with humility!

Cheers Colin

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