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Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2012, 05:28:55 PM »
Colin Macqueen writes:
However as I am a conciliatory and compromising chap, and at the risk of upsetting the King, I am happy to concede that the ball can be picked up and cleaned once. This sop being allowed when the ball first comes to rest on the green.

No worries about upsetting the King. I would love if such a rule was passed. It would really be something if the USGA/R&A passed some rules that took the game closer to the essence, rather than their standard fare of creating this new handsy game.

Putting with globs of mud on ones balls can be tricky notwithstanding the Scotmen's " hard-nosed yet pious bones".

But it will strengthen your character.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Noo try willin' it in, it'll never get there in the regular coorse o' things.
 --Shivas Irons

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2012, 07:59:18 PM »
Nice post Peter. (As always.) And well timed as I am sitting here a little ticked off. Note that I am someone who loves the challenge of hitting from a fairway divot. I've learned that the ball does come out...and I swear my percentage of hitting greens from divots is higher than from good fairway lies, because I bear down. I also never bitch about mudballs, because I think the mud gets knocked off by the impact of the club. However...

I have been battling young guns in club championships for the last 15 years, waiting until I turned 55 and could play in the senior championship. I have been playing VERY well of late, and was really excited when I saw we were playing from the forward tees. On the first hole, a straight forward par 5, I hit a big fade, but it was wide enough to miss the bunker, so no problem. Except the ball was not to be found, lost in a 40 yard wide expanse of short rough... Back to the tee, pulled tee shot, bad choice from the bunker, and a 3 putt later I am walking off with a nine. (4 putted 3rd hole from 25 feet...and finished with 79 after day one.)

Peter's post reminded me why I love the game. Sure there are bad breaks, but most of the problems we encounter are of our own making.  Be humble, accept bad breaks, opponents great shots and your own bad shots. Be tough, and play on.

PS I putted a mudball into the hole for birdie from the fringe today :)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 08:06:16 PM by Bill Brightly »

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2012, 08:10:31 PM »
I'm reminded of the time I played Shadow Creek, and I asked the caddie about the high roller gamblers he had caddied for.  Though these are hardly the noblest of golfers in many ways, he told me they only had one rule--from the time you teed off until you holed out, you couldn't touch your ball.  No unplayable lies, no obstructions, etc.  You hit it till it went in the hole.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2012, 04:17:56 AM »
I think in normal non competition play golfers should do what ever they want. Lift, clean the ball move it out of a divot, out of the long grass, hell even tee it up in the middle of the fairway. If it is not a comp who does it affect. Hell, it must make the game quicker when Harry hacker uses the HAND iron to extract his ball from the long stuff rather then 20 swipes with the club :)

Adrian Stiff has it spot on with his assessment of playability in Europe.

Jon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2012, 04:37:45 AM »
I like the "romance", in a very manly way mind you, of playing it down 100%, but the reality of year round golf dictates otherwise.  When a ball goes underground I can't much see the point of digging it out with an inadequate tool.  Mind you, in those conditions there shouldn't be comps so I wouldn't care what guys do, but I would hope golfers would have the sense not to tear apart a fairway for the sake of a principle.  Sorry Dan & Pietro, but I am all in favour of pushing balls to the wings when convenient and when conditions dictate it to be a prudent way to play the game.  I don't mind a bit of mud here and there, frost or a divot lie once in a while, but things get much more hairy than that during winter golf.  As its my favourite time of year to play, I am happy to make concessions to the green keeper and golfers who who follow me.  The problem with this attitude is it can create a god awful rules book which golf does have.  Maybe the solution is to only play comps when its reasonable not to use hands, otherwise, do what you like.

Ciao  
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 04:40:07 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2012, 06:09:36 AM »
Peter:

I thought you were talking about the essay I wrote twenty years ago ... Play It As It Lies was the title of the minimalist manifesto.  I wrote it in an election year, so it still has some relevancy today.  Here it is:

Play It As It Lies -- The Minimalist Manifesto
By Tom Doak
 
     It's actually Rule 13-1, but it's the most fundamental tenet of golf -- we play the ball as it lies. It's also the reason many see golf as a game which builds character, for it's good practice in life to have to accept responsibility for one's previous actions. You can blame anything you want for your errors -- a bird chirping in your backswing, bad karma from a previous life, or just a bad lie -- but then you have to go play the next shot from wherever you hit it.
 
 
     Those running for President would have us believe that the spirit of golf is the American ideal, that we all have to negotiate the same course, and we get what we hit. It all sounds very good. But American golfers are suckers for unrealistic promises, just as voters are. We'll buy any new piece of equipment that promises another 20 yards. Our country clubs spend gratuitously to keep their courses in near-perfect condition. And in recent years, our architects spend millions to enclose and define every shot with mounds, while smoothing down every bump in the fairways, attempting to eliminate blind shots and bad bounces from the game.
 
     The result? Instead of building character, we're raising a generation of coddled champions who can't even shrug off a bad lie and dig themselves out of a divot.
 
     We see the evidence in major championships and the Ryder Cup, against foreign golfers who grew up on imperfect courses, and learned to deal with them. That's the way the game was invented -- the original American ideal, that you can change your own destiny if you'll only work hard enough. In Scotland, the links have no trees to stop a wild shot from being swept away by the wind to perdition. But there are also none to stymie a potential recovery.
 
     Since the 1950's, American golf design has gone away from that ideal. We seem to expect the course itself to mete out justice, with water hazards and bunkers placed in tough but fair positions; but then, we groom the bunkers to permit easy recoveries. Modern American golf design is modeled on the same principles as our ailing criminal justice system -- we build more water hazards [prisons], but they only house the disadvantaged, while the elite receive suspended sentences.
 
     But there a now a handful of American designers who see things differently. We've been called minimalists, but the essence of the movement is not in the limited use of earthmoving, so much as a return to golf's original values. These are:
 
One of golf's primary appeals is that it's a natural game, and it's more enjoyable when we are playing against natural hazards.
 
A variety of stances in the fairway is a key challenge of golf, and Nature is much better at providing this variety than the hand of man.
 
Shotmaking -- the ability to control the flight of the ball -- is the ultimate expression of golfing ability, and soft, flat greens reduce shotmaking to artillery practice.
 
Judgment of the shot is as important as execution, and defining the target areas with artificial mounding reduces the value of judgment. Except for visual barriers to eyesores off-site, earthmoving should be confined to features which come into play in the golf holes.
 
     The sad part is that American golfers have become so used to pandering designs that they don't even understand some minimalist ideas. The whole point of golf architecture is to discover and then present to the player challenging shots inherent in the landscape, but today anything remotely challenging is quickly criticized as unfair. A green which tilts slightly away from the line of play is a natural challenge unto itself, but many golfers are so accustomed to having all the greens tilted back toward them to receive a shot that they believe a fallaway green is a gimmick.
 
     Gradually, many of the things which can make a golf hole interesting have been removed from modern designers' palettes. Today, even our best designers seldom produce a great golf hole, because they apply so many standards of fairness that all their holes begin to look and play alike.
 
     It's easy to talk about working with the land, but most architects use the land as an amateur interior decorator uses furniture, as raw material to be moved around the room until everything looks perfect. Many modern designers now pay lip service to minimalism, but then back away by saying that they seldom are given pieces of land with natural features to use, and that the concept is applicable to only 10% of new golf courses. Either they are wrong, or I am very lucky to keep finding land which allows it.
 
     The minimalist's objective is to route as many holes as possible whose main features already exist in the landscape, and accent their strategies without overkilling the number of hazards. Sometimes, though, the best solution for the course as a whole may require major earthmoving on a handful of holes to connect the others. That's minimalism, too. And the key to success in those instances is to move enough earth to make the artificial work appear natural, not to move as little as possible.
 
     In general, though, the minimalist moves earth to reduce severe slopes, not to create them. If you want to judge whether a particular designer is really comfortable in the minimalist style, ask him what he does when a hole has no natural feature to build upon. The real minimalist will respond that he's never faced that situation -- he'll always find something, whether it's the length of the hole, or a small hump, existing vegetation, or simply the direction of the prevailing wind -- and expand upon that to create an interesting golf hole.



Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2012, 10:57:07 PM »
This was an actual lie of one of my playing competitors yesterday.


David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2012, 12:52:28 AM »
At Leatherstocking, I walked into a bunker where an ass had tramped around, braying and snorting, leaving hoofprints all over the place. I was at the absolute bottom of the one of those hoofprints, with an absolutely unplayable shot. What do you do in that situation?

Is your question serious?  I doubt there would be a club in the world that would have a local rule that would allow the golfer to do anything without penalty other than swing at the ball with one of his clubs. 

The game of golf is truly stuffed if there are golfers out there that think another course of action is available to them. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Matthew Delahunty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2012, 01:02:22 AM »
Nice one, Dave.

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2012, 03:48:56 AM »
My dear Philip,

Let this result be a cogent lesson to your golfing partner not to shy away from water hazards in the future! I can see it in the background! Chuckling here!

In all honesty rub of the green as parlous as this has to be the rarest of events and as has already been indicated is surely character building!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Tom ORourke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2012, 09:03:16 AM »
I was a member at a club in New Jersey for 20 years and we played it down as soon as possible in the year, and for as long as possible. I hated the fact that you got one club length if you played winter rules. Guys who could not chip well would miss the green by 3 feet and use the club length to go sideways until they were 1 inch from the green, still no closer to the hole, so they could putt. That is cheating within the rules. Stuff like that goes away when you play using the rules. Now I am in South Carolina and our super is overwatering the courses to the point where it is tough to play summer rules as you get one foot of roll on your tee shot and the ball is covered in mud. The fairways are nice and green, and look great from a distance, but are almost casual water. The E Tour was just at our place and it was so wet, not really from Mother Nature, that they played lift, clean, and place the first day. There was a 61 and two 63s. The guy who shot 61 then shot 70, 71, 67 to win. So how much easier is the game with your hands on the ball?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2012, 03:33:03 PM »

It's a shame that so few golfers even know what you are talking about. They are so used to getting their hands on the ball, they can't even imagine a game where you keep your hands off the ball. The USGA and R&A also have decided the whole concept of playing the ball where it lies is antiquated and golfers will no longer stand for it.

My friends and I used to play a game where you were never allowed to touch the ball from the time you drop it on the tee until the time you pick it up out of the hole. It was the only rules, play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it. We also would play a medal play with similar rules. Touch the ball during the play of the hole and you were DQed.

How do you play the hole when your ball lies a foot beneath casual water ?

Especially when that casual water isn't a small accumulation, but a large area a water requiring you to walk, ankle deep in the water to get to your ball.

How about when your ball comes to rest next to a bee/hornet hive in the ground ?

Or, on a fire ant hill ?

Once you've been bitten by fire ants, which are almost everywhere in Florida, you won't be quick to subject yourself to that experience again.
And, you won't be hitting a shot where the turf, full of fire ants flies up all over your body.

I used to play in the winter, when the lakes were frozen and sometimes, balls would come to rest on the ice.
Walking on thin ice to play your ball wasn't without serious risk.

My point ?

There are valid reasons, accumulated over centuries, to touch and move your ball.

You'll be a purist...... only until the day your ball sits on an Africanized Bee nest.
Then, you'll get religion  ;D

Hope all is well.



Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2012, 03:42:19 PM »
Patrick, no need to make a very simple game difficult. Either you hit the ball, or if you can't or won't you lose the hole. There is no way someone who puts their hand on the ball should be allowed to compete against someone who plays golf.

In medal play, if you can't or won't hit the ball you are DQed.

We accept responsibility for our own shots and don't go looking to an overlong rule or decision book to figure out a way to procure a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
It's the only reason ye play the game at all. It's a way ye've found to get togither and yet maintain a proper distance. I know you men.  Yer not like women or Italians huggin' and embracin' each other. Ye need tae feel yer seperate love.
 --Agatha McNaughton

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2012, 03:53:31 PM »
Dan,

You didn't answer my questions.

I understand your purist view, and share it to a large degree.
However, there are situations, beyond the control of the golfer (fire ants) where relief is merited.

I had a recent situation where a competitor, twice in one hole, lifted his ball to "identify" it, then replaced it in the rough.
I didn't call the hole for a variety of reasons, but, it sure steamed the hell out of me and resulted in me losing the match.

So, I'm in favor of the general concept of not touching your ball, but feel that there are reasonable, justified situations for doing same.

But, if that's the way you feel, so be it.  When we play our match, I'll bring my German Shepherd along with me.
I've trained him to pick up my ball, run up to the green and deposit it in the hole. ;D
You'll be hard pressed to beat 18 holes in one.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2012, 04:09:45 PM »
Patrick, If for any reason you are unwilling or can't hit your ball you lose the hole. If I hit my ball into an area covered with fire ants my options are to either play the ball or concede the hole. I was the one that hit the ball there and my options are mine.

I'm fairly sure that answered all of your questions, but let me know if I did not.

I always get questions such as your German Shepherd example. What if someone used a sling-shot instead of a golf club? What if someone just walks up and puts the ball in the hole? What if someone decides to play with 40 clubs?

The answer is they don't get invited back. Yes, you will win once with your German Shepherd, you won't win twice.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
I wrote to Mr. McEnroe, Senior. I said: "Here is the sentence once written by the immortal Bobby Jones. I thought you might like to have it done in needlepoint and mounted in a suitable frame to hang over Little John's bed." It says, "The rewards of golf -- and of life, too, I expect -- are worth very little if you don't play the game by the etiquette as well as by the rules." I never heard from Mr. McEnroe, Senior. I can only conclude that the letter went astray.
 --Alister Cooke

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2012, 04:23:02 PM »
Patrick, If for any reason you are unwilling or can't hit your ball you lose the hole. If I hit my ball into an area covered with fire ants my options are to either play the ball or concede the hole. I was the one that hit the ball there and my options are mine.

But, if you've hit your ball in the fairway and only discover the fire ants upon arriving at your ball, it's no fault of your own.
As to your decision to play the ball, trust me, if you play it, that will be your last hole for the day and probably well beyond.

In your game, how do you treat paved paths, internal fences and other immovable objects where the rules call for relief ?


I'm fairly sure that answered all of your questions, but let me know if I did not.

I always get questions such as your German Shepherd example. What if someone used a sling-shot instead of a golf club? What if someone just walks up and puts the ball in the hole? What if someone decides to play with 40 clubs?

Those examples are clearly against the rules.
But, a clever German Shepherd, who only obeys hand signals, with teeth like a crocodile is another matter.


The answer is they don't get invited back. Yes, you will win once with your German Shepherd, you won't win twice.

Of course I will, I'll bring my Alaskan Malamute for our next match. ;D



Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2012, 05:22:39 PM »
But, if you've hit your ball in the fairway and only discover the fire ants upon arriving at your ball, it's no fault of your own.
As to your decision to play the ball, trust me, if you play it, that will be your last hole for the day and probably well beyond.

In your game, how do you treat paved paths, internal fences and other immovable objects where the rules call for relief ?

Patrick, are you intentionally being dense about this?

In this version of golf--which is not THAT unlike early matches among Scots--if you can't or won't hit the ball you lose the hole.

I haven't actually played this game, but I can tell you I am damned glad to say I "know" someone who believes it's better than the version of golf currently played around these parts.

I, for one, am heartsick that in my part of Kansas, it's almost impossible to find a tournament that isn't all or partly contested as a scramble.  (except, of course, our State Champonships.)

I do know that a group of golfers who met online at the rec.sport.golf newsgroup, did play it at a gathering in 1996.  And I know Dan was a participant in that newsgrou back then, because it's where I first discovered him.

Here's a writeup from the RSG Ohio event by organizer Dave Collard:

MATCH PLAY MADNESS

We were going to play this at Links at Echo Springs, but we were
already at Chapel Hill, and they said replays were free, so we stayed
here.  Good choice for match play madness - the rules were that you
tee the ball up and you don't touch it until you pick it up out of the
hole.

No unplayable lies, no casual water (this meant something on this
day!).  Hit it out of bounds and you can't win the hole, same thing
for lost ball, or hit it into a pond if you can't play it.  Your
opponent still has to finish the hole unless you concede it.  You can't
mark your ball on the green unless you are asked, and then no cleaning
the mud off of the ball.

And, if you were caught talking or speculating on your total score,
then you automatically lose your match.

It was Ohio v the Rest of the World, and Ohio was soundly beaten.
But, this was my favorite part of the weekend.  I think this is a
better game than the way we usually play.  I got beaten badly but had
a blast!  I had two favorite shots that normally wouldn't have
occured.  The first was out of water greenside - my ball was
completely submerged, at least an inch under the water in a little
gully.  I had to really squat and hit the ball cleanly and punched it
out - just a little too hard, over the green but stopped on the far
fringe.  I got soaked, but it was worth it when Chuck Sedlacko said
"Thor, you are now my hero".

My other shot was when my ball was right next to the cart path on a
par 5.  I was 3 holes down with 4 to play and had to win this hole -
had a very long drive cutting the corner, but had to stand on the cart
path.  I was wearing spikes, so I took them off and played in my
socks.  Unfortunately, I blew the shot and hit it fat and lost the
hole anyway, but it was fun trying.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2012, 06:02:20 PM »
Patrick_Mucci writes:
But, if you've hit your ball in the fairway and only discover the fire ants upon arriving at your ball, it's no fault of your own.

I'm curious, whose fault is it?

In life, things out of your control can cause you problems. It doesn't mean if you can find some other sucker to pin some of the blame, you should be absolved of fault. Golf should be about taking responsibility for your action. Yes, you had no way of knowing there was a nest of fire ants, but still you did hit it there.

In your game, how do you treat paved paths, internal fences and other immovable objects where the rules call for relief ?

Listen (or read) very careful -- because this is critical to our game -- you do not touch the ball with your hands. Keep your bluidy hands off the ball.

If you are on a paved path, hit the ball. If you are against an internal fence, hit the ball. If you are against an immovable obstruction, or even a moveable obstruction, hit the ball. If you can't or won't hit the ball you lose the hole and you move on to the next hole.

Those examples are clearly against the rules.

What rules?

But, a clever German Shepherd, who only obeys hand signals, with teeth like a crocodile is another matter.

Not really.

Of course I will, I'll bring my Alaskan Malamute for our next match.

That assumes you will ever be invited back for a next match -- a big assumption based on your behavior with the German Shepherd.

The beauty of our game is everyone understands what golf is about, so there isn't any big concern about someone bringing a well-trained German Shepherd. The problem is when you play golf with people who do not understand the spirit of golf. Either they are taught to understand, or they can go play the USGA/R&A with others who don't grasp the spirit of golf.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
If we are to preserve the integrity of golf as left to us by our forefathers, it is up to all of us to carry on the true spirit of the game.
 --Ben Crenshaw

Peter Pallotta

Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2012, 06:06:26 PM »
Thanks, gents. I wrote the OP off the top of my head, and a bit backwards. It was Mark's mention of great courses that started me thinking. I thought of the restored Pinehurst, and how easy it is there to keep with the spirit/ethos of playing it as it lies. You can hardly ever lose a ball, and if it rolls off the fairway it lands not in a pond or in foot high rough but in scrubby/sandy areas, from which you can play it.  I thought that the kind of architecture that is appealing seems to support and foster the ethos -- and as Bill notes, that ethos is basically: "be humble, and accept bad breaks, opponents great shots and your own bad shots. Be tough, and play on."  

Peter

PS - Dan K - great series of quotes, thanks.

PSS - Tom D - thanks for posting that, I'd never read it before (or if i did I'd forgotten it, and then made it my own :))
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 09:01:26 PM by PPallotta »

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2012, 12:52:34 AM »
My dear Philip,

Let this result be a cogent lesson to your golfing partner not to shy away from water hazards in the future! I can see it in the background! Chuckling here!

In all honesty rub of the green as parlous as this has to be the rarest of events and as has already been indicated is surely character building!

Cheers Colin

Ha ha!

Lucky (or not) for him, it was within the line of the hazard which made the decision easy. Unlike Rory today, who didn't have that luxury.

And for those not wanting to play a shot from a specific position, feel free to declare an unplayable. It's rule #28 and available anywhere, anytime.  :)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2012, 01:34:00 PM »
I want to see all of you "play it as it lies" supporters, reject the embedded ball rule, in effect, when you're playing a match for a trophy or money and your opponent hits low, barely off the deck drives and irons.

Who's kidding whom ?

You're all full of it.

I also want to see you reject the "casual water" relief under the same circumstances when your ball keeps finding those deep little puddles after a rain squall.

Talk is cheap.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2012, 01:56:45 PM »
Philip Caccamise writes:
And for those not wanting to play a shot from a specific position, feel free to declare an unplayable. It's rule #28 and available anywhere, anytime.

Not if you are playing the ball down. The USGA rules allow liberal touching the ball. We don't.

Patrick_Mucci writes:
I want to see all of you "play it as it lies" supporters, reject the embedded ball rule, in effect, when you're playing a match for a trophy or money and your opponent hits low, barely off the deck drives and irons.

Next time we play, I'll let you know.  It will be good to have you show up.

Who's kidding whom ?

I don't really understand your question.  Are you accusing me of lying about a group of us playing a game where we play the ball down?

You're all full of it.

Full of what?

I also want to see you reject the "casual water" relief under the same circumstances when your ball keeps finding those deep little puddles after a rain squall.

I can't promise that will happen when you come out to watch us play, but every time we do play, the possibility is there.  Maybe that is the difference. All of you handball players want your game to be predictable -- knowing before you tee off on the first hole exactly what sort of situations you will encounter. When we play, we have no idea what sort of situations we will face on the golf course. Perhaps it will be a lot of standing water, perhaps it will be mud on the golf ball, perhaps it will be facing a shot like the one Philip Caccamise's pictured. I like not knowing, and I am surprised y'all like such predictable golf.

For all of you USGA rules fans who seem to disapprove of bad luck on the golf course, do you also reject good luck?  Patrick, if you hit the ball, and it is clearly going O.B., but through no effort of your own it hits a tree, will you count it as going O.B.?  Or it is just bad luck you want to eliminate from golf?

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
However unlucky you may be, it really is not fair to expect your adversary's grief for your undeserved misfortunes to be as poignant as your own.
  --Horace Hutchinson

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2012, 03:03:08 PM »
The rules are based on three fundamental principles: That the golfer must play the ball as it lies, play the course as he finds it, and finally, where neither of the first two principles can apply, settle all questions by fair play.
 --Joseph C. Dey, Jr., 1956

I have no doubt that at times you and your buddies played the game without touching the ball at all. I tend to play the same way as David Harshbarger, I rarely touch my ball, even when it's on the green.

But the quote from Dey, the one you used earlier, has the formula for how the game has always been played, at least since rules were first established. Play it as it lies, play the course as you find it, and as the first rules provided for - when you cannot fairly play the game you are given relief, and that relief is sometimes free, sometimes not. 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2012, 04:46:49 PM »
Jim_Kennedy writes:
But the quote from Dey, the one you used earlier, has the formula for how the game has always been played, at least since rules were first established. Play it as it lies, play the course as you find it, and as the first rules provided for - when you cannot fairly play the game you are given relief, and that relief is sometimes free, sometimes not. 

Dey said, "where neither of the first two principles can apply" meaning to me that you should only have an alternative if you can not play the ball as it lies.

Reality is the USGA/R&A rules of golf allow you to put your hands on the ball, even when you can hit it. The rules allow everyone to get their hands on the ball when they are on the green even when the ball is playable. The rules allow numerous other opportunities to touch the ball, even when not unplayable. Even the unplayable rule doesn't require the ball to be unplayable. They also give free relief for all sorts of ground conditions such as cart paths, casual water, GUR, etc... where the ball is playable, but the golfer gets the opportunity to give himself a better lie.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Golf is the cruelest if sports. Like life, it's unfair. It's a harlot. A trollop. It leads you on. It never lives up to it's promises. . . It's a boulevard of broken dreams. It plays with men. And runs off with the butcher.
 --Jim Murray

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Play it as it Lies
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2012, 05:48:18 PM »
Reality is that players have been putting their hands on the ball since day one of the rules, and in situations where it may have been possible to hit it, such as:

around 270 years ago
Neither Trench, Ditch or Dyke, made for the preservation of the Links, nor the Scholar's Holes, or the Soldier's Lines, Shall be accounted a Hazard; But the Ball is to be taken out,Teed, and play’d with any Iron Club.

around 240 years ago
If a Ball shall be so played as to stick fast to the ground, the said Ball shall be loosened by the opposite party to the owner of the Ball so fastened.

To prevent Disputes in taking up Balls from water, every Ball taken from water or Tee, either upon the Green or a hazard such ball shall be teed behind and lose one, excepting in the case of a made hazard, when the ball is to be dropped behind by the opposite party and played with an iron club.


If your Ball lye in a made Hazard, or in any of the Water-tracts for draining the links, when the cut of the Spade appears at the place where the Ball lyes, it may be taken out, dropped behind the Hazard, and played with an iron club without losing a stroke; or, in the opinion of the Player, the Ball to be tee’d, and lose one; And in no case, but what is mentioned in this and the immediately preceding law, can a Ball be lifted, but must be played where it lyes.

Playing the ball as it lies has been corrupted from the very start of rules, so it's no surprise that it has expanded over time.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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