[Sean_A]

Can folks enlighten me about the positives & negatives from playing and maintenance perspectives?

Ciao

[Eric Strulowitz]

 It thrives in the heat and humidity, and it seems more ball mark resistant than other grasses.  My club converted last year, we love it.

Bet it ain't cheap, that is probably a big negative.

[hhuffines]

Is tree clearing around the greens necessary to improve the bermuda's chance of success or will heat and humidity do the job?

[Bill_McBride]

From what I have heard, Champion gets very thatchy pretty soon and gets expensive to maintain in several years versus Tifdwarf or Tifeagle. 

What my place needs is nematode-resistant putting green turf.  We've had a bad problem this spring and summer. 

[Michael Whitaker]

Sean,

Champion is a wonderful grass. We have lots of courses in SC with Champion. I like the surface very much... it is firm and can be made as fast as one can stand. It is not expensive and a green can be converted in about eight weeks with a No-Till Renovation process. Here is a link with more detail:  http://www.championturffarms.com/html_Champion/champion.html

I have no idea about the maintainence issues related to the grass, but from a user's perspective it is good stuff.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The Reserve at Pawley's went to it. It is awesome. The greens putt true, are fast, and
they stay firm.

[Mike Hendren]

I agree it's fantastic.  Cannot toleralte extreme cold and must be covered when temps fall below freezing for an extended time.

[Blake Conant]

Bet it ain't cheap, that is probably a big negative.

Actually, that's not true, especially if you're converting from a high maintenance turf like bentgrass.  The upfront cost of conversion isn't cheap, but the savings you gain from running fans on your greens, fungicide apps, and wilt watching labor gives you a very fast return on investment. 

I worked at a course with 36 holes; 18 had champion and 18 had bent.  Our director of grounds was trying to convince membership to convert the other 18 to champion and estimated the cost would've been recouped in 2 years. 

On top of that, you don't risk losing the champion greens during a drought like you would bentgrass.  Then you're really up shits creek.  To me it's a no-brainer.

[Tom_Doak]

We used it to renovate the putting surfaces at Yeamans Hall and at Mid Ocean.  Neither of those clubs runs a huge maintenance budget; their superintendents keep it leaner than what the salesmen tell you to do, and it doesn't get so thatchy that way.  I'm a big fan of it, although we used MiniVerde instead at Streamsong, because they'd had such great results with it at another course close by.

[Mike_Young]

I've used it on two renovations this summer and used Mini Verde on another.  I think those two are top ones in my area.  We are openiong on next week just 7.5 weeks after it was planted.  IMHO the two grasses are similar ot a Camry vs. Maxima...both are good...
BTW  SettinDown Creek in ATL decided yesterday to go with Champions immediately and open back up on 9/30/12...that's 8 weeks...

[Greg Clark]

I like Champion the best of the bermuda strains.  Most courses here in Texas that have recently redone their greens seem to favor Mini Verde.  That appears to be a good option too, but IMO Champion provides a better playing surface.  Others would be much more qualified than I to speak to the maintenance issues of the two.

[Robin_Hiseman]

I played on Champion for the first time with Whitty at Bulls Bay last autumn and thought it was a terrific surface.  Firm and true.

Specifying grasses for a course in Morocco just now and our agronomic advisor has recommended 'Celebration' Bermuda, because of its slightly better salt and cool temperature tolerance.  Anybody here got experience of it they'd care to share?

Thanks

[Nick Cauley]

I have seen them all.  Meaning Champion, Eagle, and Mini Verde.  It is all the same, the only difference is the person taking care of it! 

[Brent Hutto]

For what it's worth, when a course has either of those (Champion or Mini Verde) as a player it implies to me a good chance that the greens will be nice to play on. Living in South Carolina those grasses seem to be one recent innovation that's a genuine Good Thing.

I'm second to no one in loving cool-climate grasses for golf but in this part of the world the words "Bentgrass greens" are associated in my mind with a high probability of soft and/or pockmarked and/or sickly greens. Playing mostly in the heat-humidity belt the newer stuff like Champion, Mini-Verde or Paspalum is a godsend.

[Mike_Young]

I played on Champion for the first time with Whitty at Bulls Bay last autumn and thought it was a terrific surface.  Firm and true.

Specifying grasses for a course in Morocco just now and our agronomic advisor has recommended 'Celebration' Bermuda, because of its slightly better salt and cool temperature tolerance.  Anybody here got experience of it they'd care to share?

Thanks

Robin,
Have you seen TifGrand?  Check it out..The Celebration is good but seems a little "stalky".  And I don't think the divot is not a good divot form what I seen but it does spread quickly.  I lke the Grand much more....

[Anthony_Nysse]

We're doing the No till method of the celebration right now. A major part of the push behind Celebration is that it can be sprigged over existing turf and out compete it. 419 cant, paspalum cant, tifgrand cannot because they are not the top of the food chain when it comes to being aggressive. Celebration will outcompete Commom, even.
  While I agree with Mike in the fact that it can/will get a little, :leggy" some sand, a few good scalps and verticutting and you'll be fine. It's really boils down to cost. Celebration No till is about $2000/acre. It cant be touched. And tifgrand is awesome-lime green, dense but isnt a grass you'd want to use for roughs. Also can get very puffy-needs a lot of sand and aerfying/verticutting. The Floridian did there renovation with Tifgrand, wall to wall.
  And Nick Cauley is spot on. There are so many similaries between the 3 main putting surfaces, its matters who is maintaining them. Nick-DO you still have the same cell number?

[Robin_Hiseman]

Mike/Tony

Many thanks.  It is good to have an educated opinion to consider.  I've not seen TifGrand in action.  My warm season grass knowledge is a little thin to be honest, as i'm generally working in cooler climes.  Paspalum I know, but Bermuda's all look the same to me.  We need a bermuda than can do both fairway and roughs, which favours the Celebration, as Tony mentions.  Cost will be an issue, but water quality more so.  We might be too salty ultimately, in which case it'll be back to the paspalum.

Sean, why did you ask your original question?  And sorry for a slight case of threadjacking...

[BCrosby]

Champion is terrific. We converted our greens two summers ago here in ATL and it has worked very well. We do cover in winter when temps get below 30 degrees or so. You'll have the extra expense of tarps and labor needed to spread them in the eveing and roll them up in the morning.

As Mike Young notes above, the biggest surprise has been the TifGrand that we installed in the green surrounds. It is heat and wear resistant. It tolerates shade much better than 419 (We have used it to sod shaded areas in the rough and it has thrived). The extra bonus is that you can cut almost to green heights, which makes for interesting putt or chip choices in our surrounds. A real leap forward, I think, over TifEagle and older Bermuda hybirds.

Bob    

[JMEvensky]

As Mike Young notes above, the biggest surprise has been the TifGrand that we installed in the green surrounds. It is heat and wear resistant. It tolerates shade much better than 419 (We have used it to sod shaded areas in the rough and it has thrived). The extra bonus is that you can cut almost to green heights, which makes for interesting putt or chip choices in our surrounds. A real leap forward, I think, over TifEagle and older Bermuda hybirds.

Bob    

How does TifGrand do in the cold? Do you tarp your surrounds when you tarp the greens?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Champion is terrific. We converted our greens two summers ago here in ATL and it has worked very well. We do cover in winter when temps get below 30 degrees or so. You'll have the extra expense of tarps and labor needed to spread them in the eveing and roll them up in the morning.

As Mike Young notes above, the biggest surprise has been the TifGrand that we installed in the green surrounds. It is heat and wear resistant. It tolerates shade much better than 419 (We have used it to sod shaded areas in the rough and it has thrived). The extra bonus is that you can cut almost to green heights, which makes for interesting putt or chip choices in our surrounds. A real leap forward, I think, over TifEagle and older Bermuda hybirds.

Bob    

Tifgrand is a GREAT fairway, tee, approach, collar turf mowed at .25-.50" Celebration doesnt really look good or grow much above 1.25", so if you're looking for great definition, it may not be the rough grass you're looking for.  Tifgrand is  REALLY a greens quality turf, though I know they are looking at how low they can go with it at The Floridian.  Tifeagle can be mowed as low as you want. We've mowed below .065" just to see how low we could cut before scalping. We never scalped. Here is a photo taken yesterday of our Celebration fairways. They are 4 weeks old and Celebration does actually have a "blueish" color to it. It will be a great contrast.

[Harwell Palmer]

I agree it's fantastic.  Cannot toleralte extreme cold and must be covered when temps fall below freezing for an extended time.

In the winter-left dormant or painted/overseeded?
In our area it is the genearl concensus that players for the "north" prefer green if they come down in the older monthd

[Mike_Young]

We're doing the No till method of the celebration right now. A major part of the push behind Celebration is that it can be sprigged over existing turf and out compete it. 419 cant, paspalum cant, tifgrand cannot because they are not the top of the food chain when it comes to being aggressive. Celebration will outcompete Commom, even.
  While I agree with Mike in the fact that it can/will get a little, :leggy" some sand, a few good scalps and verticutting and you'll be fine. It's really boils down to cost. Celebration No till is about $2000/acre. It cant be touched. And tifgrand is awesome-lime green, dense but isnt a grass you'd want to use for roughs. Also can get very puffy-needs a lot of sand and aerfying/verticutting. The Floridian did there renovation with Tifgrand, wall to wall.
  And Nick Cauley is spot on. There are so many similaries between the 3 main putting surfaces, its matters who is maintaining them. Nick-DO you still have the same cell number?

I think I would listen to you over me when it comes to grasss

[BCrosby]

I agree it's fantastic.  Cannot toleralte extreme cold and must be covered when temps fall below freezing for an extended time.

In the winter-left dormant or painted/overseeded?
In our area it is the genearl concensus that players for the "north" prefer green if they come down in the older monthd

We paint our Champion greens in the winter. Most members didn't realize they had been painted until we told them. How does the expression go? We worried that after such knowedge, what forgiveness? Turns our the painted greens were well recieved.

To our surprise we discovered that the paint actually absorbs a bit more sunlight over the winter than they would have if left unpainted. Which means that our greens emerged for dormancy a bit earlier. That's usually a good thing, though you worry about late spring cold snaps.

Bob

[BCrosby]

As Mike Young notes above, the biggest surprise has been the TifGrand that we installed in the green surrounds. It is heat and wear resistant. It tolerates shade much better than 419 (We have used it to sod shaded areas in the rough and it has thrived). The extra bonus is that you can cut almost to green heights, which makes for interesting putt or chip choices in our surrounds. A real leap forward, I think, over TifEagle and older Bermuda hybirds.

Bob    

How does TifGrand do in the cold? Do you tarp your surrounds when you tarp the greens?

JME - We don't tarp the TifGrand. We treat it like we do our 419. We let both grow a little higher late in the Fall before they go dormant. Which I think is SOP in this area. No problem with the cold.

Bob

[JMEvensky]

Bob,thanks.

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