Slope Rating?

[James Boon]

I was recently having a discussion at my home club regarding slope ratings?

Being from the UK its not something most courses have and yet I believe a basic understanding of what a slope rating is just by osmosis from discussions on here? However if anyone can shed a little more light on the subject I'd appreciate it. Anyway, the discussion was along the lines of trying to entice more overseas, especially American, visitors to our club and I put forward the possibility that having a slope rating might help??? I have seen several top clubs in this country that do have them, so that was probably the starting point for my hypothesis?

So I have the following queries:

- If we were to advertise that we had a slope rating,would that attract you, or a hypothetical American golf tourist, to play the course?
- How exactly does one go about getting a course rated?
- And lastly, how does a slope rating take account of seasonal differences? For instance when the rough is long and the fairways and greens firm in the summer, the course can play an awful lot tougher than in the spring and autumn when the greens hold a little more and the rough is considerably less of a menace?

Cheers,

James

[Carl Nichols]

So I have the following queries:

- If we were to advertise that we had a slope rating,would that attract you, or a hypothetical American golf tourist, to play the course?

I am an actual American golf tourist and having a slope rating (or not) has absolutely no bearing on whether I choose to play a course overseas.  When I arranged a trip to Ireland three summers ago, I had no clue whether any of the courses had slope ratings (let alone what they were).

[David_Tepper]

James -

Here is a link to the USGA website with info on Slope Ratings:

http://www.usga.org/Content.aspx?id=25485

With regards to whether advertising a course's Slope Rating might attract visiting players, I would say it would be of no benefit at all.

DT

[JMEvensky]

- If we were to advertise that we had a slope rating,would that attract you, or a hypothetical American golf tourist, to play the course?

If an American golf tourist calls you and asks what the slope is,I'd suggest you tell him that your tee sheet is all booked up that day.

I'm sure there are those who ask,but I can't imagine anyone clueless enough to base their trip overseas on a course/slope rating.

[Brad Isaacs]

Please do not equate high slope with fun and interest.  It can and often goes the other way. I present as an example Chanterwood Golf club in Gig Harbor WA. It was designed and had a very high slope. J. Harbottle did some softening and resulted a a slope a little lower and a lot more fun to play. A really good corse made better by lowering slope!

[David Davis]

James,

The EGA can probably arrange a slope rating for your club, I don't believe it costs anything but I'm not sure how the UK works completely, here in The Netherlands it does not. Indeed it's just for tourists but of no real value to draw them in. I've been involved in changing the system here in The Netherlands, let's say adjusting it. However, that was possible only with the help of the EGA. We use it here. The only way to really draw golfers from abroad are to advertise to them, to set up packages to entice them, to work with tour operators in the US, or UK that work with ones in the US.

Since GCA might be the wrong crowd unless your home course is perhaps a links course or another course with significant architectural nature there are many other sites that can be of interest as well as search engine advertising based on key words. However, I doubt your club would get too into that without hiring someone to do it for them.

Cheers

[Brent Hutto]

It enables a USA golfer to post scores from rounds at your course into the USGA Handicap System. I don't think anyone would decide to play or not play a course due to it being rated or not. But for some people it is mildly upsetting or frustrating to not be able to post scores in the manner thye're used to back home.

So consider it a convenience for those so inclined and meaningless altogether for those of us whose purpose in playing a round of golf is something beyond producing another number for the computer.

[James Boon]

Thanks all, plenty to read and consider which I'll probably do tomorrow as its late here!

I suppose I didnt word my opening post great as I probably wouldnt have expected a slope rating alone to attract visitors. Let me put it another way, from what people are saying, quite a few top courses in the UK have a slope rating, so what do you think when you see this? Pampering to the tourists or turned off as thats not why you are here? I think I know what the answer is already though... 

Cheers,

James

[Ed Brzezowski]

We take a group over every two years. The slope and rating is used just to get accurate caps and post at home.

We have never picked a course by these numbers.

[David_Tepper]

James -

To address the last question you raised, the Slope Rating makes no attempt to factor in how course conditions at different times of the year might impact scoring.

DT

[Jim_Coleman]

    I  must say that when I plan to visit a course I know nothing about, I look at the slope.  I also must confess, the higher the slope, the more interested I become.  Sorry to all you purists out there.

[Ken Moum]

I also look at slope when I am thinking about playing a course I have never seen.  If it's high, I am much less interested in playing the course.

Since slope is essentially a measure of the difference in course rating for a scratch golfer and a bogey golfer, a high slope rating means that the course is relatively easier for them than it is for me.

I can't imagine why a handicap golfer would think that was a good thing.

K

[Matthew Petersen]

James -

To address the last question you raised, the Slope Rating makes no attempt to factor in how course conditions at different times of the year might impact scoring.

DT

This has always bothered w/r/t slope rating. Two of the factors used are green speed and the severity of rough and yet those conditions can change day to day let alone throughout the season.

[Tony_Muldoon]

James

I can't see how it would hurt and it might help in a couple of ways. 

For some it allows them post a score against their handicap plus.

Well never having played Notts, I am aware that it’s a top notch course  that passes under the radar. If I understand the system correctly, the greater length you have, would mean a higher slope than e.g. all the London Heathland equivalents with the possible exception of Sunningdale and Walton Heath.  That fact alone is something for Journalists to discuss.


Sometimes small steps can lead to bigger things and when you are looking at what you can do to help promote it, I would think it’s part of the mix you could employ. 

[David Bartman]

James -

To address the last question you raised, the Slope Rating makes no attempt to factor in how course conditions at different times of the year might impact scoring.

DT

This has always bothered w/r/t slope rating. Two of the factors used are green speed and the severity of rough and yet those conditions can change day to day let alone throughout the season.

This isn't entirely true ... have you guys ever played with the raters? 

They ask all sorts of questions about what the " average " conditions are in comparison to how they are that particular day.  It's certainly an imperfect science, but the raters do their best to find out what the average conditions are.  Courses that have significant changes from one part of the year to another , will certainly be skewed toward the season that the raters are playing the course.  Believe it or not, so will how the rater plays that day.  Human nature only dictates that if he/she makes a lot of putts one day he will think the slopes in the greens aren't so bad, as opposed to a day where he/she miss everything, thinking the greens are tricky.   

There also is a problem with course ratings, they are based on a scratch golfer, as it was defined a long time ago with an average drive of 250 and able to reach 470 holes in 2 shots.  I have had conversations with USGA people about updating this in an attempt to get rid of +3, +4 and +5  golfers that didn't exist in amateur golf when the average drive was 250.  I suggested moving the distances for a scratch golfer to 280 and 520 respectively. 

The slope or bogey golfer is defined by 200 yard drive and able reach 370 yard holes in 2 shots. 
Its unclear to me if the other factors that go into each ratings are more heavily weighted for slope rating than course ratings, but that would make sense to me, again I am not sure how the obstacles are applied to each type of rating.   

[Doug Ralston]

We used to seriously consider the relationship between course rating and slope when we were thinking of a new course. If it had high slope AND low course rating, we found it great. High/high was ok, low/low was bad and low/high was never found. If the number slope/rating was greater than 2, fantastic, if slope/rating less than 1.75 'boo!'. It was fun searching the 'then great website golfcourse.com' [which was sadly destroyed by their buy out] for courses within our range that fit the formula ..... BTW, completely of our own invention.

All that said, slope is indeed 'bad golfer' rating for courses. So if you think bad golfers should be able to play your course [and contribute to your bottom line] I think getting a slope rating is likely a worthwhile goal.

Doug

[Ed Brzezowski]

David,
Obstacles are rated by the shot required to either go around them or over them.  A 150 yard shot by a bogey golfer over a bunker carries a higher value than that of a scratch golfer. Points are assigned by difficulty, sort of like diving and gymnastics. The tougher the shot the higher the value.

So for a bogey golfer it may be a 6 but for a scratch a 3. The book is at my office so please don't quote me on the numbers,I was trying to convey the process. Bunkers carry different values green side by depth and percentage of the green surrounded by them. The rating manual is,at times,fascinating in its detail.

Asked the same question to the USGA guys in 2005 when I was seeing  300 yard bombs as commonplace.

Ed

[David Bartman]

Thanks Ed

[Mark Chaplin]

Run a mile if slope means card submission, they'll be putting everything and taking hours!

[Matthew Petersen]

James -

To address the last question you raised, the Slope Rating makes no attempt to factor in how course conditions at different times of the year might impact scoring.

DT

This has always bothered w/r/t slope rating. Two of the factors used are green speed and the severity of rough and yet those conditions can change day to day let alone throughout the season.

This isn't entirely true ... have you guys ever played with the raters? 

They ask all sorts of questions about what the " average " conditions are in comparison to how they are that particular day.  It's certainly an imperfect science, but the raters do their best to find out what the average conditions are.  Courses that have significant changes from one part of the year to another , will certainly be skewed toward the season that the raters are playing the course.  Believe it or not, so will how the rater plays that day.  Human nature only dictates that if he/she makes a lot of putts one day he will think the slopes in the greens aren't so bad, as opposed to a day where he/she miss everything, thinking the greens are tricky.   

There also is a problem with course ratings, they are based on a scratch golfer, as it was defined a long time ago with an average drive of 250 and able to reach 470 holes in 2 shots.  I have had conversations with USGA people about updating this in an attempt to get rid of +3, +4 and +5  golfers that didn't exist in amateur golf when the average drive was 250.  I suggested moving the distances for a scratch golfer to 280 and 520 respectively. 

The slope or bogey golfer is defined by 200 yard drive and able reach 370 yard holes in 2 shots. 
Its unclear to me if the other factors that go into each ratings are more heavily weighted for slope rating than course ratings, but that would make sense to me, again I am not sure how the obstacles are applied to each type of rating.   

David,

That's certainly right and I appreciate that raters do everything they can to rate the course as close as possible to the "typical" conditions.

But that still means nothing to the player who plays it on an atypical day.

Since the overall HCP is an average over the course of quite a few rounds, I do suspect it generally evens out.

[Bob Harris]

James -

To address the last question you raised, the Slope Rating makes no attempt to factor in how course conditions at different times of the year might impact scoring.

DT

This has always bothered w/r/t slope rating. Two of the factors used are green speed and the severity of rough and yet those conditions can change day to day let alone throughout the season.

This isn't entirely true ... have you guys ever played with the raters? 

They ask all sorts of questions about what the " average " conditions are in comparison to how they are that particular day.  It's certainly an imperfect science, but the raters do their best to find out what the average conditions are.  Courses that have significant changes from one part of the year to another , will certainly be skewed toward the season that the raters are playing the course.  Believe it or not, so will how the rater plays that day.  Human nature only dictates that if he/she makes a lot of putts one day he will think the slopes in the greens aren't so bad, as opposed to a day where he/she miss everything, thinking the greens are tricky.   

There also is a problem with course ratings, they are based on a scratch golfer, as it was defined a long time ago with an average drive of 250 and able to reach 470 holes in 2 shots.  I have had conversations with USGA people about updating this in an attempt to get rid of +3, +4 and +5  golfers that didn't exist in amateur golf when the average drive was 250.  I suggested moving the distances for a scratch golfer to 280 and 520 respectively. 

The slope or bogey golfer is defined by 200 yard drive and able reach 370 yard holes in 2 shots. 
Its unclear to me if the other factors that go into each ratings are more heavily weighted for slope rating than course ratings, but that would make sense to me, again I am not sure how the obstacles are applied to each type of rating.   

Obstacles are weighted differently for the scratch and bogey ratings.  Topography, bunkers and trees are more heavily weighted for bogey, while greens and fairways are for scratch.
However, CR and slope are not meant to predict scores, the system was designed " to ensure that the rating of a course is in proper relation to the rating of other courses." 

[Jason Connor]

The huge irony to me is this:  The slope, by its very nature, has no influence on a scratch golfer.   Only course rating matters there.

The worse a golfer is (the higher his handipcap) the more slope matters -- that's the very reason for the word SLOPE.

So by acting all big shotty, they're admitting they aren't very good!

[James Boon]

Thanks all,

I've a much better idea of the slope rating now. I've also found the pope of slope website which is full of information and may take a while to get through... http://www.popeofslope.com/

Not sure in itself it would be a useful marketing tool, but to some extent i suppose it wouldn't hurt, allthough Chappers may have a point...   I'm hoping to discuss marketing a course shortly in another thread...

As for slope ratings adjusting handicaps for a certain course... thinking of the Buda Cup, we have enough debate about how to adjust handicaps accordingly, so I guess taking account of a slope rating would just lead to all out mathematical warfare?  

Cheers,

James

[Jason Connor]

James, the simple idea is this:

Imagine my course's rating is 72, your course's rating is 74.

So a scratch golfer will on average take 2 more strokes on your (harder) course than on my course.

But of course take a bogey golfer and it makes perfect since that your course is MORE than 2 strokes harder.  There is no reason why 2 strokes harder for a scratch golfer translates to 2 strokes harder for a bogey golfer -- or a double bogey golfer!

Enter the slope.  If you remember your Statistics 101 class, the course rating is like the intercept, and the slope is ... well, the slope.  It (somewhat indirectly --- divide slope by 113) translates into how many strokes harder the course gets for the bogey golfer.

[Mark Chaplin]

You on the Board now James?

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