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ANTHONYPIOPPI

Heavy Air and the Golfball
« on: July 30, 2012, 03:27:56 PM »
It seems that one of the most widely held but incorrect beliefs in golf is that high humidity reduces the flight of a golf ball. In fact, the opposite is true.

I have a post about it on my website and I would appreciate a click. Here is an excerpt.

"Changes in air humidity do influence golf ball performance, but the change is quite small and counter-intuitive. The counter-intuitive part is that increasing humidity makes the golf ball fly slightly lower and longer... The addition of water vapor to air actually reduces the density of the air, and it’s this reduced density that lowers both lift and drag forces on the ball: lower lift reduces the peak height and lower drag increases carry distance."

~Eric Loper TaylorMade's Product Development Manager – R&D Golf Balls

http://anthonypioppi.com/golf/blog/887/dispelling-the-myth-that-heavy-air-impedes-golf-ball-flight

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 03:32:17 PM »
I think part of the equation overlooked here Tony is most golfers, IMO, have higher clubhead speed in warmer weather because they are more limber.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2012, 03:33:00 PM »
It seems that one of the most widely held but incorrect beliefs in golf is that high humidity reduces the flight of a golf ball. In fact, the opposite is true.

I have a post about it on my website and I would appreciate a click. Here is an excerpt.

"Changes in air humidity do influence golf ball performance, but the change is quite small and counter-intuitive. The counter-intuitive part is that increasing humidity makes the golf ball fly slightly lower and longer... The addition of water vapor to air actually reduces the density of the air, and it’s this reduced density that lowers both lift and drag forces on the ball: lower lift reduces the peak height and lower drag increases carry distance."

~Eric Loper TaylorMade's Product Development Manager – R&D Golf Balls

http://anthonypioppi.com/golf/blog/887/dispelling-the-myth-that-heavy-air-impedes-golf-ball-flight

Anthony,

Thanks for the link to another excellent topic! I have always wanted to know and hope you don't mind sharing, how much revenue is generated for you per click?  It is important that we all support our fellow posters!

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2012, 03:42:21 PM »
John:

As of right now, according to my latest calculations: $0.00. It's not until I reach a  threshold consistently (I'm not sure of the number of clicks) that I will see even a small amount of cash. I think, it part, it has to do with people clicking on the ad links that pop on my website.

When I do see some revenue, I promise I will announce it.

Joe:

That theory might be right but in a number of cases this year, I've been caddying on warm, humid mornings when golfers said it.


Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2012, 04:00:58 PM »

That theory might be right but in a number of cases this year, I've been caddying on warm, humid mornings when golfers said it.


And it wouldn't surprise me a bit if more often than not it is uttered later in the round, when getting tired from the heat and stupidity overtakes the limberness.   :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Peter Pallotta

Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2012, 04:03:49 PM »
Thanks, Anthony. (I think Penta golf balls are really good - even for an average golfer like me, they seem to deliver what they promise). I have a theory about why golfers think the ball travels less far in humid weather. In Toronto, if it's hot and humid, it's  usually also very calm, i.e. there is no/very little wind. I think golfers may be remembering their wind-assisted shots and confusing that with "how far I usually hit it" -- and then when there is no wind find disappointing the distance they're actually hitting it.

Peter

David Davis

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Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2012, 05:25:13 PM »
Interestingly enough I was informed by a member of the R&A something similar about 3 weeks ago. They had done extensive research and came to the conclusion that even temperature change does not affect the distance or flight of a ball. Something I just can't imagine. I always seem to hit so much further when it's warm and dry as apposed to the normaly cool wet condition we are use to here.

It's hard for me to accept that it's only due to me being more limber and loose when it's warm. No physics experts out there?
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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2012, 05:44:25 PM »
Playing in cold weather environments like Spokane and SLC, I get more distance...

....cause the balls run a helluva lot further when the fairways are frozen.  ;)

P.S.  I think the biggest change of distance is always going to be elevation.  I would agree with the previous post about "wind assisted" long balls and people forgetting the wind gave em an extra 30 yards.

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 06:05:42 PM »
In the end, the physics of ball flight doesn't tell you everything there is to tell about the reality of a golf shot. A wet, humid day is likely to mean a wet, sticky golf course where you don't get firm conditions and don't get much roll. A hot dry day will tend to mean a hot dry course and the ball will go further--not in the air, of course, but how many golfers are really expert at knowing exactly how far the ball flies vs. how far it rolls?

John Jeffreys

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Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2012, 06:37:21 PM »
I just read an article about Furnace Creek Golf Club in Death Valley where they are 214 feet below sea level, the lowest golf course on earth, they claim. They stated that the ball flies 10 yards or so less on an iron shot. Any thoughts?  The superintendent said when temperatures reach 123 degrees he sends the guys home because it is just too hot! Gotta hate those days when it just hits 120.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2012, 06:39:43 PM »
I just read an article about Furnace Creek Golf Club in Death Valley where they are 214 feet below sea level, the lowest golf course on earth, they claim. They stated that the ball flies 10 yards or so less on an iron shot. Any thoughts?  The superintendent said when temperatures reach 123 degrees he sends the guys home because it is just too hot! Gotta hate those days when it just hits 120.

10 yards less as compared to? And what length of an iron shot?

240 feet of positive elevation certainly doesn't equate to that much change in distance. Some guys don't even see that much change at several thousand feet of difference.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2012, 07:16:52 PM »
I just read an article about Furnace Creek Golf Club in Death Valley where they are 214 feet below sea level, the lowest golf course on earth, they claim. They stated that the ball flies 10 yards or so less on an iron shot. Any thoughts?  The superintendent said when temperatures reach 123 degrees he sends the guys home because it is just too hot! Gotta hate those days when it just hits 120.

10 yards less as compared to? And what length of an iron shot?

240 feet of positive elevation certainly doesn't equate to that much change in distance. Some guys don't even see that much change at several thousand feet of difference.

I do.

I play golf in Utah at 4500-5000 feet and my 3 wood is easily 40-50 yards longer compared to playing in the bay area...near sea level.

Even my 9 iron is a good 20 yards longer at elevation.

Will MacEwen

Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2012, 07:20:47 PM »
On Expos' radio broadcasts I recall hearing that the ball carried better in humid weather.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2012, 07:26:51 PM »
On Expos' radio broadcasts I recall hearing that the ball carried better in humid weather.

But that was only for the opponents Will.   ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2012, 09:08:42 AM »
The realization that air is 60% heavier than water vapor is bizarre...almost impossible to believe.

What's the difference between water vapor and water?

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2012, 09:11:10 AM »
The realization that air is 60% heavier than water vapor is bizarre...almost impossible to believe.

What's the difference between water vapor and water?
vapor ;)

jeffwarne

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Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2012, 09:19:05 AM »
Interestingly enough I was informed by a member of the R&A something similar about 3 weeks ago. They had done extensive research and came to the conclusion that even temperature change does not affect the distance or flight of a ball. Something I just can't imagine. I always seem to hit so much further when it's warm and dry as apposed to the normaly cool wet condition we are use to here.

It's hard for me to accept that it's only due to me being more limber and loose when it's warm. No physics experts out there?

That R&A research must come from the same people that told the USGA each year for 20 years that golf balls did not go "appreciably further"

perhaps the temperature change of the air may not affect ball's performance(although I would argue it does), but a golf ball whose core is 90 degrees is going to fly further than a golf ball whose core is 35 degrees, so to say air temperature doesn't affect the ball is quite misleading-since it is an outdoor sport, the air temperature will eventually lower the ball's temperature
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 09:38:37 AM by jeffwarne »
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2012, 09:24:58 AM »
The realization that air is 60% heavier than water vapor is bizarre...almost impossible to believe.

What's the difference between water vapor and water?
vapor ;)


Good point...maybe a bad question.

The ball sure seems to go farther in the desert than in a Philly summer...

Brent Hutto

Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2012, 09:25:03 AM »
If we approximate "air" and "water vapor" by treating them as ideal gasses (which is an assumption that is met within a truly miniscule fraction of a percent under normal atmospheric temperatures and pressures) the the density (weight per unit volume) of each gas in the mixture is proportional to its Atomic Weight.

Water vapor is easy, that portion has an Atomic Weight of 18 (one Oxygen atom at 16 and two Hydrogen atoms at 1 each).

Air is a more elaborate mixture but for this discussion can be treated as a mixture 79% Nitrogen (Atomic Weight 28, two atoms at 14 each) and 21% Oxygen (Atomic Weight 32, two atoms at 16 each). So each of the major components of dry air weighs more per unit volume than does the water vapor.

Basically, in a normal mixture of gasses the proportion of molecules of each species and the proportion of the density represented by each species is the same. That's because the behavior of gasses (unless the pressure is very, very, very high) is to spread out where each unit of volume contains the same number of molecules, regardless of the species (element) of each molecule.

So humid air is a mixture of dry air molecules with much lighter molecules of water vapor, resulting in lower density for the humid air.

P.S. I believe the anonymous R&A member is being misquoted. The flight of a golf ball, aerodynamically, is definitely different depending on air temperature. Colder air is more dense therefore the ball will not fly as far. The recent findings being (mis)quoted are concerning the effect of temperature on the springiness and resulting ball speed of a solid-core golf ball at various temperatures. Older balls with wound cores were known to compress and rebound somewhat sluggishly at low temperatures so it really made sense on a cold day to do the Tom Watson trick of keeping balls in a pocket next to a hand warmer. What they've found now with modern balls is that the compression and rebound performance only varies trivially over a normal temperature range of something like 0-40C.

So the warm-day and cold-day performance of the ball used to be different due to two effects. The effect of cold or warm air on the flight of the ball and the effect of warm or cold windings and cover in the ball itself. The latter effect is now negligible so only the aerodynamic effect remains to any meaningful extent. But that effect is same as it ever was.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 09:30:44 AM by Brent Hutto »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2012, 09:30:48 AM »
Show off!!

Brent Hutto

Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2012, 09:33:16 AM »
I have very little to flaunt so once in a great while, when an opportunity presents itself, flaunt it I do.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2012, 09:33:50 AM »
Good man

Will MacEwen

Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2012, 09:38:22 AM »
On Expos' radio broadcasts I recall hearing that the ball carried better in humid weather.

But that was only for the opponents Will.   ;)

Schmidt was the all time Expo-killer.

1994, best record in baseball 74-40.  Le sigh.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2012, 09:38:44 AM »
John:

As of right now, according to my latest calculations: $0.00. It's not until I reach a  threshold consistently (I'm not sure of the number of clicks) that I will see even a small amount of cash. I think, it part, it has to do with people clicking on the ad links that pop on my website.

When I do see some revenue, I promise I will announce it.

Joe:

That theory might be right but in a number of cases this year, I've been caddying on warm, humid mornings when golfers said it.



I wonder, Tony, if humid air affects the flight of shots of different levels of golfers differently.  If it reduces maximum height on the shots of a 15 handicapper who doesn't hit the ball with much authority, perhaps that player might suffer a loss of difference? But a longer hitter will see tee shots and long irons go a little farther.

I wonder, is there a break-even point for trajectory, ball sped and spin where humid air goes from being an aid to a hindrance?

By the way, this bit of physical reality is one reason some armchair golf pundits oughtn't be so alarmed to see that Tiger hit an 8 iron 190 yards back at Congressional a few weeks ago.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Heavy Air and the Golfball
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2012, 09:41:15 AM »

By the way, this bit of physical reality is one reason some armchair golf pundits oughtn't be so alarmed to see that Tiger hit an 8 iron 190 yards back at Congressional a few weeks ago.



Why so? I don't see where you're going with that Tim.