[David Davis]

Gentleman (and one lady I believe),

I'm bringing this back up to the top for a couple reasons. I'm disappointed in all of you architecture enthusiasts (except those that commented) that I can post something off topic about wearing pants and have it get over 1500 views and then put quite a lot of work into posting something I'd hope would be truly interesting and few people take notice. Could someone please enlighten me as to what I'm missing here?

We are even talking about the replacement of a new hole with a rather controversial aspect with regards to this WW1/2 bunker. Not one person commented on this which I just find amazing. Are there any opinions on whether something like this should be kept? Has anyone played the likes of North Berwick and noticed the old stone wall running through one of the holes? What do you think about this type of stuff? Should it be covered up or will it make a hole famous/infamous? Surely it adds an unforgetable aspect to it?

[Michael Goldstein]

David,

I'm hearing you.

Does the first hole play into the prevailing wind?  I remember it being rather difficult even at it's short length.  If it does play into the prevailing wind the new hole looks like a very stern start.  Perhaps this fits in well with the difficult nature of the entire course?

The bunker looks cool.  Incorporate it.

My other first impressions were whether you could route another hole in that land/where the first hole is rather than, say, the weak par three on the back nine.

[Mac Plumart]

David...

This thread is quite good and appears to have been noticed by quite a few people.  It is really difficult to make comments or suggestions regarding what should be removed or added to a golf course you haven't played.  Perhaps this is why few have commented on that specific aspect.  To me, it appears that bunker for the War looks neat and adds a talking point.  Furthermore, it looks like some trees need to be removed.  But I've never set foot on the property, so I'm unsure the precise value those comments add.

Thanks for the thread...great stuff!

[Anders Rytter]

Gentleman (and one lady I believe),

I'm bringing this back up to the top for a couple reasons. I'm disappointed in all of you architecture enthusiasts (except those that commented) that I can post something off topic about wearing pants and have it get over 1500 views and then put quite a lot of work into posting something I'd hope would be truly interesting and few people take notice. Could someone please enlighten me as to what I'm missing here?

We are even talking about the replacement of a new hole with a rather controversial aspect with regards to this WW1/2 bunker. Not one person commented on this which I just find amazing. Are there any opinions on whether something like this should be kept? Has anyone played the likes of North Berwick and noticed the old stone wall running through one of the holes? What do you think about this type of stuff? Should it be covered up or will it make a hole famous/infamous? Surely it adds an unforgetable aspect to it?

David,
I read your post and probably should have commented.

I've been thinking about a BeNeLux swing (pun intended) for some time and Nordwijkse is definately one of the reasons. I would keep the WW2 Bunker, i most often like things slightly out of the ordinary on courses as long as they aren't causing too many no-shot situations close to the line of play (as a stonewall in the fairway often does).

Great thorough tour of the course!

[Mike Hendren]

Wonderful tour!  Thank you.

Perhaps Bandon Trails is its American doppleganger?

Bogey

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jeez David, it actually looks like you've gotten some decent comments. I've posted tours of unmolested Donald Ross courses and gotten crickets.

I'll jump in but much of what I have to say is repetitive.

Fascinating to hear the 1st is being changed.

A replay of my own impressions as they unfolded in my first round (of two): the start...wow, nice view, decent starter hole...2...say, this course isn't bad, tell me why this course isn't famous?...3...nifty par 3--huh, are those trees back there (still subconscious)...4...WHOA. FULL STOP. this hole is killer, awesome...but, huh, what are those tall green things over on the right si--wow, look at those dunes on the left! Holy crap! Why can't there be a course over there? Environmental? {told: it's an old artillery range}...well who cares? With that kind of land we'll happily take our chances...

...5...sonofabitch, trees?! what the hell....6...good god has this place lost its senses? a Tree Chute, on a links?! this is morally wrong...7...oh my god somebody make it stop, please, anyone, get me out of this thicket...8...we're rescued! i'm so glad we got out--and hey, this hole's not bad...9.... ooh, i'm feeling it here, will this hole never end, a real links brute--maybe just PTSD from the Schwarzwald experience, i'm okay now...10...that's it, two balls on a hole is my limit...11...wait, we're going back?! but i thought we were done! no i don't want to go back in there, please please don't make me go back in there...arghhhh [blacks out]....15...i'm okay, i'm okay, snapping out of it now....whoa, quirky hole....actually kinda fun...yay, whoopie, links golf, whew that helped...16....17....18 nice holes, good way to bring it to the house.

19th hole....wow, this is absolutely perfect, so comfy...really, the kids get to play video games and chill in that room? you gave them that view??...can i box this clubhouse, atmosphere and all, and bring it home?....the beach, too? i think there are places in America where that would be allowed...

Well, there you have it, David. Not an original thought in the entire post!

[David Davis]

@ Michael - first hole plays downwind crossing slightly from right to left in the prevailing wind. Prevailing however, doesn't mean too much. The new first hole will be tough as well no question about it.

@ Anders - let me know when you are coming.

@ Mac - thanks!

@ Michael H - Bandon Trails is pure nature, coastal mountain range and old growth trees. Impressive site for other reasons. The two courses would really be night and day. We only have trees on a few holes and they don't belong there IMO.

@Mark - LMAO, my repost was worth it just for the humor in your comments. I've often thought the same. Over and over again, especially when the wind is up.

@ the rest - I'm still waiting...but it would be more fun to take you all out and let you get your butts kicked for a day and litter the course with nice PRO V1's and then have the discussion again.

[David Davis]

Mark,

Incidentally, I imagine you were playing the back tees when you hit #10. It's as tough a drive as you'll find anywhere. It required about 240 yd carry to reach the landing area to have a realistic shot at the green (right and left of the fairway and the ball is gone) - which is a blind shot. Sunday we have a tournament from the back tees, 36 holes and of course I get the luck of the draw to start off #10. Not ideal for a slow starter...

[Jeff_Lewis]

Wanted to bring this topic back up.   Played the course this week thanks to David's assistance.   A very fine course.  Reminiscent of Formby for me in the combination of links and forest holes.   Tiny greens and pretty narrow driving areas.   A difficult course to be sure.   The property for the new first looks good, but I did like the existing hole. I also played Kennemer the same day, and with some considerable clearing it would nearly equal Noordwijkse. Strongly suggest that folks do Netherlands golf tour.  There are about half a dozen very worthwhile courses to visit and the people couldn't be more welcoming.   

[David Davis]

Jeff,

Glad you liked it! I just wanted to mention that you were privileged and played the KLM Open routing from Kennemer as well. It's worthwhile to note that that is basically the best holes of their three 9 hole courses.

I also agree that is a great routing, and indeed would be almost as good as Noordwijkse if they clean out some trees, however, if we clean out our trees continental Europe will know no better test or course.

:-)

David

[Frank Pont]

Jeff,

I just wanted to mention that you were privileged and played the KLM Open routing from Kennemer as well. It's worthwhile to note that that is basically the best holes of their three 9 hole courses.

David

David,

I must say I am really puzzled why you think the KLM routing at Kennemer are the best holes; can you explain your logic on that?

I do not think there are many other connoisseurs out there that share your opinion. If anything many of the pro's and archies really do not like the A holes one bit, and some of them literally hate them (Mike Clayton is a good example).

Having been closely involved with the Kennemer for many years I can tell you the main reason why the KLM Open uses the current routing is due to the fact that they want length (that is why all the 9 A holes are in the routing) and there is a need for public access to the site which makes it impractical to use many of the holes on the B loop.

Massive tree and shrub clearance, which we started a number of years ago, and which continues, will make the A holes better, but the routing and especially the green complex detailing and bunkering will never not in the same league as B and C loops.

[Mike_Clayton]

Frank,

It was depressing having played the real course in the 1983 Open to come back a few years later with much anticipation to find we were playing those new holes. Any progress out there?

[David Davis]

Frank,

A holes:

1. a good solid start from the back tees (never played the yellows). Requires a nice drive to get a good shot to the green with anything other than a long iron.
2. semi weak par 5, long straight and no frills, space waster.
3. back up hill, into the wind most of the time. Tough hole to pick the right club.
4. Good short hole with a visually tight drive even through there is more space to the right. I also like the approach which is often semi blind and tricky to judge.
5. Nice driving hole, lot's of space, need to have a fairly long drive to get a good shot at the green which is a bit tricky falling offer everywhere.
6. Waste of space, corny hole I think is weak.
7-9. all excellent holes

B. 1-4 are all decent holes. 5-7 are dull usage of the flat unspectacular ground. 8 is a decent par 3 with a tricky long narrow green. 9 is a really nice finishing hole but a shame that you have to play 5-7 to get there.

C. 1-3 are in my opinion more wasted space. 4-9 are decent although I'm not a fan of 6 at all which seems out of place a bit and manufactured, especially in comparison to 8 which is brilliant and the other par 3's. 7 is one of the funnest driving holes I've seen. 9 is a decent finishing hole.

that's my quick opinion without going into green complexes etc. I definitely think A holes need to be cleaned out significantly in terms of over growth but it's also much better than it was a couple years ago.

In short I'm not a fan of any of the holes that make use of the large flat areas. I've also played them in competition and match play as well. None had any significant effect on the events in high wind or light wind except B8 and B9.

If for example I go through Royal Hague or Noordwijkse, no holes are on the dull use of space side, granted that's also a topography issue. The archies just had better land to work with. Even so I would of liked to see how Colt would of routed the A9 in it's entirety to be honest. I'd love to know how he would of solved the issues I have with A2 and A6 for example.

In any case add that up and that's why I think the KLM Routing is by far the best and also why I think they really do need all 27 holes to make a solid routing that competes with the best in NL yet still comes up just short.

[Ally Mcintosh]

If for example I go through Royal Hague or Noordwijkse, no holes are on the dull use of space side, granted that's also a topography issue. The archies just had better land to work with. Even so I would of liked to see how Colt would of routed the A9 in it's entirety to be honest. I'd love to know how he would of solved the issues I have with A2 and A6 for example.

Did Colt not actually have A6 driving much further right before falling over the hill but this idea was abandoned due to safety?... I may be completely off base with that but it rings a bell... That's if I'm even remembering 6 correctly as the hole that drives blind before turning 90 degrees to the right?

[Bill Brightly]

What is the status of the changes to the first hole?

[David Davis]

Ally,

Frank is more of an expert on this than me but as far as I know, Colt didn't have anything to do with that hole. Pennink was the one that designed it. I'm sure Frank will correct me if this is not the case. I've mentioned this original sketch I've seen from Colt and while he did map out a few of the holes of the A course. That hole was not included.

Bill,

The status is that we are waiting for an answer from the supreme court of The Netherlands on how to handle the conflict we have with the nature  organizations that are objecting our every move. They are making a decision if it will be handled on a local basis by them or if they will pass this on to a European court. If the latter happens we are looking at a few years delay before we even get an answer. We should know anytime what the initial decision should be so it's a little exciting.

[Bill Brightly]

European court? Really? Is part of being in the EU agreeing to joint decisions on land use?

[David Davis]

European court? Really? Is part of being in the EU agreeing to joint decisions on land use?

Bill, I'm afraid I can't answer this one. Really don't know and I wouldn't consider this my area of expertise either. One of the gentlemen from our greens committee would know the answer here. It has something to do with how to deal with protection of areas that are considered natural habitats in Europe or something like that.

[Jeff_Lewis]

I preferred the B and C holes to the A holes that I played at Kennemer.   I would like to have had the time and the energy to play all 27.   Next time.  But there is not doubt that the course is an over-treed as any in the world given what it was, what it is, and what it could be. Hirono also comes to mind for mind-boggling tree intrusion on a formerly linksy landscape.

[Mark Pearce]

European court? Really? Is part of being in the EU agreeing to joint decisions on land use?

Bill,

The Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU, previously The European Court of Justice) is a court to which European national courts can refer questions of European law.  That is, questions which arise in national cases which depend on a point of law deriving from a Directive or Regulation of the European Parliament.  I don't know anything about the issue David is referring to but suspect it is more likely a question that derives from European preservation laws than propert laws.  The CJEU does not decide questions of fact but just answers specific questions of law.

[Paul_Turner]

David

Not sure how anyone could claim B5 is "dull usage of flat land".  The green makes that hole. 

And the less undulating land at Kennemer isn't exactly flat on a golfing scale.  C7 has a blind drive over a sand dune.

C1 a waste of space?  C6 a bad hole and much weaker than C8?

[David Davis]

David

Not sure how anyone could claim B5 is "dull usage of flat land".  The green makes that hole. 

And the less undulating land at Kennemer isn't exactly flat on a golfing scale.  C7 has a blind drive over a sand dune.

C1 a waste of space?  C6 a bad hole and much weaker than C8?

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your comment. Although it makes me wonder if we are talking about the same course or at least same holes.

B5 is a perfectly flat short par 4 hole that plays to 316 meters. It' has a slight dog leg to the right and has a pretty good green that falls off to the back right quite severely. It's not the worst hole no and on a lesser course might be quite alright but it's certainly not one of the better ones at Kennemer.

C7 is a short par 5 (439 meters from the back tees) that tees off from the highest point on the course. the drive is not blind since you are on the highest point of the course. usually it's driver 5 iron or 6 iron if you hit a decent shot. Sometimes even less.

C1 does have a blind drive, but you can almost hit any club anywhere and make your par. Sure it's fun but it's just not among the top holes there.

C6 is that obscure par 3 that plays up to that high plateau which has undergone quite a few changes over time if I'm not mistaken. It's not even close to as good a hole as C8 which is a world class par 3 with great bunkering and a tricky green that falls off in many directions.

Yes I definitely stand behind what I said on these holes. It will be interesting to see what everyone else from GCA thinks that is joining at the BUDA.

What is it about the holes you are mentioning in your opinion that makes them good solid holes in comparison to other holes on the course?

[Paul_Turner]

David

I meant B7 sorry. 

C6 green was probably flattened from the war.  But it's still a fine unusual par 3.

[David Davis]

David

I meant B7 sorry. 

C6 green was probably flattened from the war.  But it's still a fine unusual par 3.

Paul, B7 is actually quite a good hole I agree. I don't love the bunkering as it seems a little out of character and the green is quite flat if I remember correctly.

When is the last time you played there? C6 is a quirky hole for sure but actually my least favorite of all the par 3's on any of the courses. Still indeed not a bad hole. I'm guessing the war comment is sarcasm but the green up top is rather flat. There may be some back to front sloping going on and perhaps a little right to left sloping in the front. No doubt it's a tricky shot getting up there and a kind of all or nothing. Miss the green short or left and you are faced with an extremely difficult blind chip shot or bunker shot in case you end up short.

[Frank Pont]

Frank,

It was depressing having played the real course in the 1983 Open to come back a few years later with much anticipation to find we were playing those new holes. Any progress out there?

Nothing has been changed to the routing, the bunkering or the green complex detailing of the A holes since you last visited. The main thing which has been done with quite some effect is massive shrub and tree clearance work all over the course, but esspecially the A holes. Other than a1 and esspecially A9, which are both pre WWII Morisson, the other holes lack the startegy and quality of the bunkering on BC. Also the greens lack the subtle undulations that are present on the BC loop of Colt. The only thing where A outshines BC is that the terrain is more spectacular, in some sense more reminiscent of Noordwijk and R Hague.

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