[Nigel Islam]

The upcoming PGA at Kiawah reminds us that Tiger only has 1 PGA win on a Pete Dye course. I thought it might be interesting to breakdown his PGA wins by architect. I tried to use the designer usually associated with the course, so don't crucify me if say you feel Bay Hill is more Arnold Palmer than Dick Wilson. I was not intending to enter into that kind of debate.  Here goes:

Dick Wilson 18 wins
RTJ 10 wins
Jack Nicklaus 8
Billy Bell 7
Joe Lee 5
Mackenzie 4
Bendelow 2
The Old Course 2
Neville/Egan 2

Dye, Ross, Palmer, Watson, Colt, Phillips, Fazio, Fought/Lehman, Norman, Maxwell, Cobb, Tillinghast, Plummer, Morrish, Weed, Coore & Crenshaw

[David Harshbarger]

Between Dick Wilson, RTJ, and Joe Lee that's a bucket load of "Dark Ages" course wins.  With Dye as the antithesis of that era, maybe you are on to something.  Would be nice to know opportunities by Archie, of course.

[Nigel Islam]

I had no idea Dick Wilson and Joe Lee did La Costa before starting this exercise. Tiger does have a great deal of all time great courses to his credit too.  He did win a US AM at Sawgrass too so he does have some track record on Dye courses, but he does avoid Harbour Town at all costs along with Colonial. Tiger does like Par 72s though.

[Nigel Islam]

Also full disclosure the RTJ courses are 7 at Firestone and 2 at Congressional. Course credit for both courses is very debatable.

[David Harshbarger]

Also full disclosure the RTJ courses are 7 at Firestone and 2 at Congressional. Course credit for both courses is very debatable.

At least you didn't place Congo in the Dev Emmet pile. 

[Matt Kardash]

Tiger hasn't been very good on Dye courses. Besides his win at TPC in 2001 and a runner up in 2000 he hasnt contended much there really. His two PGA's at Whistling Straits werent very good either.
I don't think Dye courses fit his eye. Then again, I dont think anyone can claim to feeling comfortable on a Dye...and I think that is the point.

[RJ_Daley]

Like Matt says, Dye courses don't seem to favor anyone's eye, so to speak.  It is quite an eclectic set of winners and playing styles at Players, and Harbor Town, or even Crooked Stick.  They seem to only slightly favor power hitters, but many crafty little players have had their success on Dye's courses as well.  But, with the elasticity of Kiawah and likely stretching it if the wind is not great, power will probably play more of a part than Dye's other tour or major venues.  I like Tiger's chance at Kiawah if it is steady but moderate wind.  If it is very windy, part of the days, I think it is a total crap shoot. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Of course, you could look at it and (figuring Tiger is the best player of his era, or at least was) and say that maybe DW and RTJ actually figured out a design style and method that was perfect for consistently identifiying the best player of the day, with Jack Nicklaus not too far behind.

Maybe all the harsh punishment on a Dye course works too hard to equalize players by punishing misses extremely?

Honestly, for all the nostalgia based belief of going back to the old days, maybe we really just need to reexamine the 50's to see what those guys did right, even if the look of their courses seems a bit tired to our eyes right now.

[Nigel Islam]

Jeff, I think a large part of it that the PGA Tour has actually used a lot of Nicklaus, Dick Wilson and RTJ courses for their most important events. Therefore the best, most motivated player of his generation won a lot of big time tourneys on their courses.  I noticed that 13/14 majors Tiger won have been on courses built before 1960 (Valhalla is the exception), but a lot of his PGA wins came on courses that shall we say not at the top of the play lists of GCA members.

[David Harshbarger]

Jeff, without knowing the opportunities per designer it's not possible to draw good conclusions. 

That in mind, the conventional wisdom on that eras designs is that they reward execution over strategy.  Tiger could well be the most complete executor of golf in our era, so it would seem that eras courses would setup well for him.

Ask the question the other way: what era/type of course would you most expect Tiger to excel on? 

Dave

[Nigel Islam]

David, if I may answer your question I think he might have proven he excels on any kind of course. Certainly his two wins at The Old Course and 4 at Augusta speak to his imagination and ability to win at strategic golf courses, but he also can win on the risk/reward courses that Wilson, RTJ, & Nicklaus favor plus two majors at Medinah. The courses he seems to do poorly at are those with tree lined dog legs, but even then he won at Southern Hills. I was actually expecting a much different result when I started this exercise, than what I concluded. I am not sure I understand exactly what you mean by opportunities though?

[Ronald Montesano]

At bats, to use the baseball analogy. Always laughed when Maris had the asterisk...he broke the Babe's record for HRs in a single season in more games, but fewer at-bats.

If Tiger is 10 for 100 on Dick Wilson courses, he's batting .100 on them. If he is 2 for 3 on P.Maxwell courses, he is .667 and actually favors Maxwell courses over Wilson courses.

[Nigel Islam]

Thanks Ronald, I understand now. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Nigel, this is such an interesting thread...I think that I am going to look back at the courses that I have played and see if there are biases for my game. I love Travis courses and plan to play a new one on Monday....we'll see if my love of his work allows me to play that course well.

[Nigel Islam]

I was so fascinated by this Friday night researching this when I should have been working. I was actually surprised the topic has only generated lukewarm interest. Oh well I guess this just proves my wife is right when she says I am weird. 

BTW I tend to play Bill Diddel courses well, but that is only because there are about a million in Indiana!

[Jeffrey Conners]

This is a fascinating thread.  I would love to know Tiger's winning percentage on par 72s versus par 70s.  Tiger used to wear out the par 5s.

By the way, Maris had 590 at bats in 1961; Ruth had 540 at bats in 1927.

[Jason Thurman]

The most interesting aspect of this to me is Tiger's relative struggles on Dye courses, which I had recently thought about prior to this topic being posted.

I wonder how much it has to do with Dye's demands for accurate driving to tight fairways, at least on the courses that pros play. Tiger's also never been much better than average from sand, and Dye loves bunkers. I really have no idea though.

[Matthew Petersen]

The most interesting aspect of this to me is Tiger's relative struggles on Dye courses, which I had recently thought about prior to this topic being posted.

I wonder how much it has to do with Dye's demands for accurate driving to tight fairways, at least on the courses that pros play. Tiger's also never been much better than average from sand, and Dye loves bunkers. I really have no idea though.

How often has Tiger played Dye courses? There's Sawgrass every year, and the two PGAs at Whistling Straits ...

I don't recall if he has ever played the Harbour Town tournament.

It's interesting, because a course that demand precision off the tee would seem to have fit Tiger well in all those years when he could hit the stinger iron so well off the tee.

[Garland Bayley]

Tiger results at Harbour Town

1999 T18

[Jeffrey Conners]

Excluding the Masters, Tiger has played in 43 majors as a professional.  He has 10 wins (23%).  His winning percentages for the various pars are:

Par 72:  58% (7 for12)
Par 71:  9% (1 for 11)
Par 70:  10% (2 for 20)

In the PGA, Woods has won or finished second in five of the seven (71%) events where par was 72.  The only blemishes came at Whistling Straits where he finished T24 and T28  (2004 and 2010, respectively).

[Nigel Islam]

Tiger also has played Riviera a bunch and never won so that is a Thomas course with a low winning %.  The strange thing about his struggles on Dye courses is that they are almost always par 72s. Perhaps it is the fact  that Dye par 5s are not usually grip it and rip it holes?

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