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John_McMillan

Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2003, 10:32:06 AM »
Tim,

There is a short par-4 on a course I frequently play - the second hole on Champion Hill.  It 330 yards, and doglegs left.  The green lies on a diagonal, with a bunker guarding the front left part of the green.  I played a 3-wood off the tee, hoping to leave myself about 100 yards for a wedge into the green, and I hoped to play down the right side of the fairway, so I would open up the green away from the front bunker.  I hit my 3-wood longer, and with more of a draw than I had intended, which greatly impressed the group I was playing with, but I knew that I had not set myself up well for the hole.  The approach I left myself with is exactly the type you would be considering for your "little devil" hole.  

Frankly, a shot which must fly 60 yards in the air, and cannot fly fewer than 55 or more than 65, is a pretty difficult shot to pull off.  There is a reason that pros routinely lay-up to a 100 yard range on par 5's which they can't reach.  Distance control on less than full shots becomes quite a test.  With the shot I had on the short par-4 hole, I could kick the ball onto the right side of the green, but would have a putt of 40 to 50 feet left.  To play towards the pin, I would have to go over a bunker, and stop short of a slop which fell off behind the green.  I decided to go for the shot over the bunker, and got to about 15 feet for a birdie putt (which I missed), but I think that type of a hole as a par-3 would present more problems to a scratch player than they'd be willing to admit.

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2003, 10:36:04 AM »
I like the idea and I figure if it is deemed too risky to be part of the regular 18, why not build one as the 19th or "betting hole" that are sometimes built.  That way not only do you have a testy little shot with disaster lurking, but you might also have a full gallery of onlookers from the clubhouse.

Keith.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2003, 10:41:43 AM by Keith_Williams »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2003, 10:36:20 AM »
If a "large segment of raters" were sent back in time to the conditions and design philosophy of anything other than the Golden Age, they would come back shocked and disgusted. To learn from the past is status quo — but to avoid new ideas at the potential of seeing frowning faces on the establishment ....well, that's nothing more than malpractice.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2003, 10:43:46 AM »
While not pursuing new ideas might be considered questionable, I wouldn't define it as malpractice.

And to say learning from the past is nothing more than status quo is to invalidate all of mankind's evolution.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2003, 10:57:27 AM »
Forrest:

There aren't many 80-yard holes in the present, but there also weren't in the past, to the best of my knowledge.  Blackheath had a hole which sounded like a par-6 or par-7 in Darwin's description, but I don't recall him singing the praises of any 80-yarders.

In the future?  Well, you can build all of them you want.  I'll only do it if I see a compelling reason to do so, and I can't imagine one.  (Although I never thought I'd build back-to-back par-3 holes either, until two months into the routing of Pacific Dunes.)  My guess is that the feedback from trial-and-error in this case would be mostly "error."

I'm not beholden to rankings or to the bag of tricks of the top 500 courses.  But I've seen 1,100 courses, and I've never yet seen an 80-yard hole that I thought was really good.  When you build one, let me know and I'll come see it ... but don't be surprised if I think it's a gimmick.

Hell, golf courses already feature several holes with 80-yard approach shots -- that's every par-4 under 420 yards for the Tour pros now.  Why would you want to build even more of them?

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2003, 11:09:50 AM »
Tom D,

I thought of Riverdale Dunes #8 when I read this thread initially. Although it's a little longer than 100 yards, it's not when you altitude-adjust...  ;) Riverdale #8 works for two reasons IMO--first, the green has some interest, and second, at least for this player, I put additional pressure on myself not to screw it up--"hey this hole is so short how COULD you miss the green, not make birdie or par, etc." Sort of like the driveable par 4.  I think the first factor is paramount for these kinds of holes, but I think they'd only make sense if there was no alternative in a routing--which of course wouldn't happen, would it?

All The Best,
« Last Edit: July 03, 2003, 11:54:48 AM by Doug Wright »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2003, 11:18:56 AM »
Guys:

I share the view that building a "little devil" would be risky and that many might quickly dismiss it. But, what I'm getting at is:

What if an architect of Tom Doak's talent was given the green light and support by a developer who more or less said the following:

"Tom, let's build it.....don't worry if it's unconventional or that it hasn't been done before......just put your mind towards building something really cool.....not some marketing gimmick like a floating green, but something legitimate....just unusually short".

Two other points:

Tom wondered whether there would ever be a legitimate reason to do it other than for the sake of doing something different. My reply would be to ask if a "little devil" might ever help solve a routing problem. Could it help put the pieces of a puzzle together?

I also wonder about the notion that if it hasn't been done before, there must not be any merit. Surely, the history of golf architecture has seen certain things work better over time than others. Okay. But, was there a point in history where new things were introduced and where at first they seemed questionable but over time people came to appreciate them?
Tim Weiman

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2003, 12:01:40 PM »
Tom D.,

I would rather our first meeting be over dinner as opposed to having you see a gimmick par-2 or 3 of our creation!

My belief that there were likely very short holes in early golf (ancient golf) has to do with the implements and balls then in use. While "cross-country" in nature, the game was more about accuracy in hitting a target (and hole) and less about distance. If anything, the records speak to the lure of people hitting small balls to small holes with small clubs. Small holes, then, would be in order. Several factors are at play in this hunch: Balls would ge lost over longer distances, hitting many shots would be tiresome, etc. Of course, there is also the idea of the single long hole (12,000 yards), but this is unlikely to have been all that much fun as mathematically the match would have been won long before one player holed out — the losers being well behind and not able to verify their opponent's score or even be in the vicinity of the finish line.

Holes were easy to construct in ancient times. After all, they were nothing more than a literal hole dug into the soil. The more of these "easy" holes present and you would, in essence, have the potential for shorter distances between them. And, in the end, shorter shots from one hole to the next — at least in theory.

The reason for building a short hole (today) would need to be land-driven, or a severe need for such an interruption in a round. Had we three par-3s in a row, one of tremendous short length may be called for. The par-2 concept we are looking at is driven by constriained land due to some very ill planning on the part of now-long-gone land theives (planners). It also provides variation among a round with five par-3s otherwise.

I disagree slightly with the notion that approaches to par-4s are identical to the shot value of the very short par-3. At the tee one is presented with a unique set of circumstances: (i) bystanders and the nearby "audience factor" with multiple sets of eyes trained on your every move, (ii) the thought and prospect of the uncommon hole-in-one, (iii) honors, (iv) a set place from which to strike the ball that is not the doing of the golfer, and (v) the freshness of walking up to the tee to be presented with a new picture of a problem to be solved — not the longer walk from your previous shot to the next, as is the case at the longer, par-4 or par-5 hole.

By the way, the word "gimmick" stems from a gambling device which is used to artifically control winning at casinos — not all that bad a concept. I liken the word to "Bandaid", a term often used to describe a temporary fix to a problem. But, when one considers of the true meaning of "Bandaid" it is not at all a bad device or term. In reality, a Bandaid does exactly what it is supposed to accomplish, and without them our world (and my 8-year-old daughter) would be worse off. "Gimmick" is not all that bad either, for our world needs them in order to break up streaks, otherwise boring lulls, etc.

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

THuckaby2

Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2003, 12:58:09 PM »
Forrest:

While "Bandaid" does seem to be a great descriptive term and seems to cover your situation well, if the folks at Johnson & Johnson read your post, they'd cringe as much as I would if you said you were gonna "clorox" your clothes to make them white, or the copier people would if you said you were going to go make a "xerox" of one of your plans.

Protection of trademarks is a big thing to us corporate folks.   ;)

So let me re-write this so that my pals at J&J will smile:

"I liken the word to "Bandaid"(add circle r), a term often used incorrectly and with malice toward the trademark registered by Johnson & Johnson to describe a temporary fix to a problem. But, when one considers of the true meaning of the brand name "Bandaid" (add circle r) as applied to bandages, it is a fantastically wonderful term. In reality, a Bandaid (add circle r) brand adhesive bandage does exactly what it is supposed to accomplish (with incredible efficiency, I might add), and without them our world (and my 8-year-old daughter) would be worse off. "Gimmick" is not all that bad either, for our world needs them in order to break up streaks, otherwise boring lulls, etc."

TH

ps - please realize I am absolutely just messing with you, but reading this came right after I read a report of misuse of "clorox" in a newspaper (I get these all the time), so it was a rare chance to tie my two worlds together.   ;D

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2003, 01:27:24 PM »
Reading this came right after I read a report of misuse of "clorox" in a newspaper (I get these all the time), so it was a rare chance to tie my two worlds together.

I hope that when Clorox gripes to publications about the misuse of "Clorox," you do it with a sense of humor.

Over the years, the letters of reprimand that I've received from trademark-violated corporations (memorably, the Xerox Corp.) have been notably lacking in everything but the most absurdly legalistic solemnity.

So ridiculously pompous was the Xerox gripe that I couldn't help myself; the next month, I wrote a whole front-of-the-magazine note reminding them that it was a violation of federal law to make unauthorized xerographic photocopies of copyrighted material -- which, of course, they had done, to attach to their letter griping about my horrible transgression.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

THuckaby2

Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2003, 01:31:18 PM »
Dan:

Unfortunately, we are as humorless as Xerox about this, I'd have to guess.  It's a churned out form letter and dammit, I never get to prepare it or have it go out under my name (if so I sure as heck would inject some humor).  All I do is report things on to those who really work in this area.  Given I'm a conduit for all things Clorox in many ways, lots of times I am the first to get these reports.

Love what you did to Xerox, in any case.  Hopefully their people got a chuckle.

TH


Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2003, 01:33:22 PM »
Tim,
  #7 at PB came into my mind and I honestly couldn't remember the yardage.  I do remember the only time I played it and it was dead calm.  The hole looked so short and my group felt it was only playing 90 or less yards.  I tried to hit a SW after ringing my hands in debate for about 2 minutes.  In the middle of my 3/4 backswing I clearly remember debating in my mind how hard to hit it.  Needless to say I nearly put in on the rocks to the right.  
   I agree with everyone who thinks that this is a good idea.

SBR

Jeff_McDowell

Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2003, 01:34:18 PM »
Tim,

People I've talked to don't think it's a "real" golf hole simply because of the length. They feel it's too short.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2003, 01:39:57 PM »
 Great question Tim, and great posts gentlemen.

  I'm a little shocked, as Forrest is, that some here have the mindset of a stubby hole being a negative that should be avoided.  I would think that their uniqueness would bring out the highest energies for challenging ones own artistic license - and posture up to the status quo.  This type of hole is not unprecedented but rare.  If its virtues aren't pursued than we're limiting our vernacular of golf architecture.  

  I've sketched what I think would be interesting for a wee yardage hole that has a safe/setup target being off and beyond the green.  What!?  Thus the chip becomes the swing shot.  Something like this may never be built but it's still fun to dream outside the norms.  It would also save the greens from developing chinese checker craters from the deluge of sky shots.  

  Brora's "Other Gleneagles" has lots of shorties but chipping is usually required beyond ten feet from the hole.  Sometimes closer.

  Kill yer Lob Wedge!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2003, 01:43:33 PM by Slag__Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2003, 03:48:32 PM »
I've consulted my wife, and she says length is over-rated.

Also, a good friend of mine is an intellectual property attorney (patent attorney) and I have a decent knowledge of the law with regard to trademarks, service marks, patents, design patents, trade dress and copyright. Please note that "Band-Aid" [with hyphen] is the true trademark. Doubtful that "Bandaid" would pass as J&J would get upset to be certain. But, fellows, I used the generic spelling to avoid litigation.

Forrest®
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

THuckaby2

Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2003, 03:52:19 PM »
Forrest:

You rule with a god-like certainty.  I love that answer.  I was wondering if you ommitted the hyphen on purpose, and MEA CULPA for not giving you the benefit of the doubt there.

Of course, as you rightly note re the J&J example, if someone says they "clor-oxed" their shirt to make it white, we're still gonna be pissed and we're still gonna complain.

But I applaud your efforts.  You have out-smarted this smart-ass.

I'll get you some other time!   ;D ;D ;D

TH

ps - humble apologies to Tim W. for the thread hijack here.  I find Forrest to be just so damn witty it's fun to try and catch him at something.  But if this detracted from the discussion of itty-bitty golf holes, which is worthwhile without a doubt, then my bad.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2003, 04:29:15 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2003, 11:16:12 PM »
Jeff McDowell:

I'm not surprised people thought the hole you mentioned was a "real hole" because it was too short. What interests me is how people's thinking might evolve if a really good "little devil" was built. What if birdie or par wasn't so easy, but you really couldn't fault the architect for just building something ridiculous?

SBR:

Sorry if my comment about #7 at Pebble came across too harsh. When I was thinking about this subject, I thought people might immediately say the "little devil" exists and cite Pebble's 7th as an example.

I'm thinking of something different. First, something quite a bit different and also something that doesn't rely on wind. True wind might only add to the challenge, but I'd like to see something that would be interesting without it.


Tim Weiman

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2003, 05:20:42 AM »
Tim,

  No harshness taken.  I now understand why you made the original post the way you did.  It is important to set this type of hole apart from what is already out there.  It may be that the little devil is not commonly built now because we don't have one that dates to the golden age as an example.



SBR

TEPaul

Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2003, 05:40:45 AM »
When thinking about how to design and construct something like this my sense would be simply to imagine something that already exists (a green for instance) and then just imagine how it might play somehow from less than 100 yds.

This kind of thing sometimes occurs to me when out at NGLA and looking at some of those greens in wonder and even imagining what they would be like to play from other design applications.

For instance, just imagine how cool it would be to play to the Road hole green (#7) from a tee up to 180 yds or so (to the middle at least or possibly the back) coming at that green from over behind #8 tee! The shorter pin and shot would be to the very narrow front and the longer shot to the broader back. It would be a bit like playing to PVGC's #1 in reverse!

Or think of playing to the short green (#6) from a different angle, or even playing to the Alps green (#3) from a tee on the redan (#4).

So, in that context just imagine playing to the 1st green from a tee that's much higher than the 1st fairway but from less than 100 yds, or possibly even better from a tee to the left of the 1st green that would be about level with the green from over to the left (parking lot) and less than 100 yds (I actually saw someone try to do that last weekend).

This could be interesting because somewhat like the real short (#4) one would have to be extremely accurate to get the ball into the correct green section or a 3 putt or worse  would be likely! The good news of course is that if you did manage to get the ball into the correct section a birdie would be likely. Part of the interest of a green like #1 is there really are quite a few different ways and different shots that can be used to get the ball into one of the very small separate sections! I know because I watched it happen!

One always needs to think of the importance of that scoring spectrum and what it means as the barometer to an interesting hole (birdies and "others"=wide scoring spectrum!).

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2003, 06:16:38 AM »
TEPaul,

I'm going to do something dangerous...... I agree with you about NGLA.

One could replicate a 60 yard par 3 modeled after the approach shot to # 1, # 3, # 6, # 7, # 11, # 12, # 15 and
# 18.

I think one of the things that make NGLA so spectacular is the approach shots to many of the greens, irrespective of the distance and angle that the green is approached from.

That is just part of the genius of the architecture at NGLA.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2003, 10:01:14 AM »
Tom Paul & Pat Mucci:

I thought it was agreed you two couldn't agree!

But seriously, I think architects might have a ball thinking of different sources of inspiration for a "little devil". Mine probably comes as much from the famous #8 at Ballybunion as anywhere else. This short hole plays about 145 yards from the back, but it is fun to sit and watch approach shots take all sorts of odd bounces and then to watch people play recovery shots.

A real "little devil" would have to be on a different scale - probably a smaller green -but the key, I think, is to create those elements: odd bounces and tricky recovery shots.

Pat, I'll also credit something you said about the opening holes at Garden City: the idea that a good player feels like he SHOULD score well. In such situations, it gets inside the player's head when he doesn't.

A well designed "little devil" just might torment the good player.......perfect in my book.
Tim Weiman

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Little Devil
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2003, 10:27:53 AM »
Shrink the 10th green at PVGC a bit and restore the more severe facing contours leading to Hades (circa 1970-80s) and you could play this hole from 60-70 yds and still walk off the green with all your fingernails bitten to the nubs.

JC