Grounded in our beliefs?

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,

Do any here have an opinion on whether or not the local rule during the PGA at Kiawah recently, which allowed grounding of the club in bunkers, led to "better" bunker shots. Some of Adam Scott's and Rory's were exceptional but that could well be the norm for them.

I wonder if it would make a great difference to mere mortals like ourselves. I can imagine that it would not make a great difference to the good to very good player. However for the foozler playing out of bunkers, a feat which at times seems nigh well impossible, this might make for a more enjoyable golfing experience at no great expense to the purity of the game.

Whatcha think?

Cheers Colin

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gentlemen,

Do any here have an opinion on whether or not the local rule during the PGA at Kiawah recently, which allowed grounding of the club in bunkers, led to "better" bunker shots. Some of Adam Scott's and Rory's were exceptional but that could well be the norm for them.
It's A very interesting question

I wonder if it would make a great difference to mere mortals like ourselves. I can imagine that it would not make a great difference to the good to very good player.

 However for the foozler playing out of bunkers, a feat which at times seems nigh well impossible, this might make for a more enjoyable golfing experience at no great expense to the purity of the game.

That's where I would disagree with you.

The ease at which one could "build" a lie by virtue of "creatively" grounding the club would taint the purity of the game.

The nature of sand is that the "lie" of the ball can be altered by the act of grounding the club, and that would taint the purity of the game.

Whatcha think?

Cheers Colin

[jeffwarne]

On the grounding subject, as i was watching Petterson hit out of the hazard on #1, it struck me that he had his club soled on the surface (the grass in this case)
I'm curious why this is not grounding the club and a penalty. I realize hovering the club and touching taller grass is not a penalty, but he had the club RESTING(soled) on the grass which was quite short.
Was his club physically on the ground (i.e. dirt)?
No but it was clearly soled/grounded.

I did not notice the leaf deal until the later replay, but frankly, the leaf would not have popped up if he hadn't been grounding his club in the grass in the hazard.
There was NO attempt to hover the club above the ground in the hazard.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I didn't see any of the tournament as I am out of the country but touching the grass is not considered grounding the club.

[jeffwarne]

I didn't see any of the tournament as I am out of the country but touching the grass is not considered grounding the club.

So a player in a fairway has not grounded his club?

[jeffwarne]

To take it a step further if a pine cone had been dislodged ,do you think that's ok?
It all resulted from him having his club low enough to test/potentially change the lie
This was not a case of accidentally hitting tall grass on the backswing

[Bill_McBride]

To take it a step further if a pine cone had been dislodged ,do you think that's ok?
It all resulted from him having his club low enough to test/potentially change the lie
This was not a case of accidentally hitting tall grass on the backswing

And he paid the price with a 2 shot penalty!

I thought it was kind of crazy seeing formal bunkers with rakes not playing as formal hazards.   Then I noticed how those more formal bunkers bleed into waste areas and it becomes more reasonable- but still not right IMHO.

[Matthew Petersen]

I think the greatest benefit might to be to the skilled player. Not necessarily the pros--they can really rely on consistent quality of sand. But a good player might be able to get a good sense of the quality of the sand from a couple practice swings, and then be able to hit the appropriate sort of sand shot. I'm unsure of how much this would help the hacker who struggles to remove it from the sand generally.

[David Bartman]

On the grounding subject, as i was watching Petterson hit out of the hazard on #1, it struck me that he had his club soled on the surface (the grass in this case)
I'm curious why this is not grounding the club and a penalty. I realize hovering the club and touching taller grass is not a penalty, but he had the club RESTING(soled) on the grass which was quite short.
Was his club physically on the ground (i.e. dirt)?
No but it was clearly soled/grounded.

I did not notice the leaf deal until the later replay, but frankly, the leaf would not have popped up if he hadn't been grounding his club in the grass in the hazard.
There was NO attempt to hover the club above the ground in the hazard.

Jeff,

Grounding the club means that his club must be resting on the ground, not just touching the tops of the grass, another way to evaluate this is the embedded ball, its only embedded if it breaks the surface of the ground itself, not just embedded in the grass. 

I think that the rule should be looked into, and possibly changed , causing the leaves on a tree to fall when the branch is still in your way is no longer a penalty, because the difficulty of the obstruction is still present. 

To your example, a pine cone would certainly change the dynamic of the shot significantly, but a bug flying off of a stalk of grass wouldn't and could have happened even if the club was hovering high above the ball in taller grass.  Yes an insect is a loose impediment. 

Most people ground their club in the fairway, the club is on the surface , the base of the grass, not just on the top of them. 

[jeffwarne]

David,
(Apologies for my hairsplitting ) the grass in that hazard was quite short.
His club appeared to me to be clearly resting and soled on the surface (in this case rough length grass)
It's very hard for me to see how that's not testing the surface.
the proof was that when he took his club away, it was low enough to the surface (the shortish grass) to brush a leaf and cause it to fly up.
Quite different than striking a reed on the takeaway.

If that wasn't grounding because he wasn't touching the ground, then it's hard for me to see how a player could "ground" (by touching the ground) his club anywhere there was turf.

Colin,
 Sorry for the threadjack.
I felt that allowing players to ground the club in the bunkers(sandy areas) was silly and that many of those bunkers could've been defined as such.
Call it the "Dustin" effect

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,
I understand there is the temptation to improve ones lie but as has oft been shown golfers do not succumb to this sort of behaviour!

Jeff W says "........ from him having his club low enough to test/potentially change the lie" and Pat M says "...ease at which one could "build" a lie by virtue of "creatively" grounding the club". These are low acts with no virtue.

In all seriousness I know if I practice bunker shots whilst grounding the club in the bunker I will extricate myself about 95% of the time, if I do not ground the club I am looking at about 75% success (I'm anal and have done the numbers, small sample mind you!).
Now I may get out more often but the accuracy of my shot, where the ball comes to rest, is not that much improved. So my contention is that overall I have not gained much ground in my scoring but my enjoyment of the "gemme" and the bunker shot particularly has gone up immeasurably. I for one would have no problem with the grounding of a club in a sandy hazard as I have enough faith in golfers to believe that a flagrant, or even subtle, attempt to improve the lie would not be happening.

Cheers Colin

[Brett_Morrissy]

Colin, <<we posted at the me time - great minds?>>
Nice question.

Firstly, many of the sand shots I watched on the coverage, seemed to be nice and firm and perhaps even compacted a little - reminiscent of the Sandbelt's lovely firm bases that are a pleasure to play from, and a fine excuse for the tour boys to increase their 'sandy' stats.

I think Pat makes a good point, in grounding a club behind the ball, temptation for golfers to improve that approach of the club head into the ball/sand may be too great for some - and it seems much of the basis of the rules is to remove temptation...

But, I certainly like the idea for a practice swing in the bunker, to not only assist in mental image of the shot, but also judge the nature of the sand, be that soft or hard, wet or dry, etc.

Unfortunately, I do not see how these two aspects can exist at the same time, without the Kiawah local rule.

Is it possible to say that practice strokes are allowed, but in taking the shot, you are not allowed to ground your club??

For my own personal game, I would improve my ratio success of 'up & downs' by at least 25%, maybe 50% ( this maybe because I play most of my golf on two heavily wind affected courses where it is impossible to keep the sand consistent throughout the hundreds of bunkers across the 36) if it were within the rules to make a practice swing in a hazard.

I not saying I want this, just that is my opinion, as requested !

[Wayne_Kozun]

With most amateurs I don't think it would make the slightest difference, except for instances where you have a fried egg lie and they do lots of "gardening" while grounding the club and beginning the backswing.  Most golfers often hit bunker shots too fat or too thin and practice strokes and/or grounding the club would not signicantly change that.

In fact I would say that close to 10% of golfers do ground their clubs in the bunker today as they are ignorant of the rule.  It wouldn't surprise me if Azinger did since he doesn't seem to have a clue about the rules.

[Colin Macqueen]

Wayne,

What you say is interesting but does not stack up in my own experience or that of others that I have watched. I have seen a professional starting off teaching bunker play sessions with the student grounding the club simply to give the recipient a sense of confidence. The student will  hit the shot out of the bunker with much more élan and style than when they are are required to play the shot in an orthodox manner.

You also suggest that  " that close to 10% of golfers do ground their clubs in the bunker today as they are ignorant of the rule." I 'umbly suggest that that is definitely not the case in Australia.

Cheers Colin

[Patrick_Mucci]

I didn't see any of the tournament as I am out of the country but touching the grass is not considered grounding the club.

So a player in a fairway has not grounded his club?

Jeff, it's not analogous.

Not in a bunker where the grass is NOT mowed/maintained.

[David_Tepper]

Article on the USGA website on "Why No Bunkers At The PGA Championship."

http://www.usga.org/ourexpertsexplain.aspx?id=21474849584

[David Bartman]

If that wasn't grounding because he wasn't touching the ground, then it's hard for me to see how a player could "ground" (by touching the ground) his club anywhere there was turf.


Jeff,

This is exactly why the club wasn't considered grounded.  Regardless of how long the grass was, it looked to be more an an inch in length to me, you can have your club touch the grass but not at the bottom of the blade, where the ground meets the bottom of the grass blade.  In a fairway the blades are even shorter and generally everyone rests their club at address at the bottom of the grass blades , on the ground.  

Imagine a shaggy carpet, you could easily touch the club on the carpet without hitting the base, not grounded.  However, if you simply set the club down and let gravity take its course, the club would lower itself to the base of the carpet that would be grounded.  

[jeffwarne]

If that wasn't grounding because he wasn't touching the ground, then it's hard for me to see how a player could "ground" (by touching the ground) his club anywhere there was turf.


Jeff,

This is exactly why the club wasn't considered grounded.  Regardless of how long the grass was, it looked to be more an an inch in length to me, you can have your club touch the grass but not at the bottom of the blade, where the ground meets the bottom of the grass blade.  In a fairway the blades are even shorter and generally everyone rests their club at address at the bottom of the grass blades , on the ground.  

Imagine a shaggy carpet, you could easily touch the club on the carpet without hitting the base, not grounded.  However, if you simply set the club down and let gravity take its course, the club would lower itself to the base of the carpet that would be grounded.  

David,
Unlike most touring professionals , I've got a pretty clear understanding of the rules on "grounding" a club in a hazard.

I'd say we simply saw it differently.
I would've called the penalty BEFORE he hit the leaf as he appeared to me to be grounding the club when I saw it live (perhaps the replay would tell me otherwise).

Interesting that his reaction was that it was a "stupid" rule.(the leaf part)
or he could've appreciated the fact he was in a HAZARD (admittedly confusing given the "stupid" sandy area grounding allowed during the event). and avoided potential penalty by hovering his club further above the ball (and evidently the leaf)

To Colin's original point, tour bunkers are perfect enough, allowing a practice swing to boot is just silly.
Certainly the defined turf enclosed bunkers could've been played as hazards.
Total copout

[David Bartman]

Jeff,

I only saw the replay, not live, and he certainly didn't ground his club. 

I assume his reaction of stupid was mostly because moving the leaf in no way shape or form changed the nature of the shot that he hit. 

He definitely broke the rules as they are written, and it cost him probably around 500k

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

I only saw the replay, not live, and he certainly didn't ground his club. 

I assume his reaction of stupid was mostly because moving the leaf in no way shape or form changed the nature of the shot that he hit. 

He definitely broke the rules as they are written, and it cost him probably around 500k

I'm positive he wasn't doing anything to intentionally gain an advantage, and it was unfortunate.
I just looked at the replay, and that club stays low in the grass for nearly a foot in his takeaway.(the club in fact gets its' lowest as he begins his takeaway.)
Seems a very risky way to play a ball in a hazard.

Glad you like Augusta (my hometown)
We can agree to disagree on this one.

[Mike McGuire]

"Seems a very risky way to play a ball in a hazard."

Risk implies some reward.

This is pure lunacy.

 I would not be so cavalier playing in the Friday nite " Nine and Wine"

[Rich Goodale]

Slightly OT, but in this modern age I can't see the logic for allowing practice swings on the fairway or in the rough but not in bunkers (assuming--in all cases--that you do not improve your stance or lie).

[David_Elvins]

Slightly OT, but in this modern age I can't see the logic for allowing practice swings on the fairway or in the rough but not in bunkers (assuming--in all cases--that you do not improve your stance or lie).

You are allowed to take practice swings in bunkers, I have always done it.  You are just not allowed to test the surface of the hazard.  On courses where the depth and compaction of the sand varies, there would be a significant advantage on taking a practice swing that took a divot.  There would also various disputes as to whether material moved during the practice swing had moved ball, touched ball, changed lie etc etc etc.  A whole can of worms.

[Keith Doleshel]

I am of the opinion that allowing grounding of one's club in a bunker does allow for the possibility of players "building" a lie or improving their situation.  That could open up a can of worms in any type of tournament situation. I consider myself to be a fairly decent player, and know that a practice swing would definitely help me judge the firmness of the sand and could perhaps change the type of shot I would play depending on the bunker's condition.  That would be an advantage that would change the effectiveness of bunkers as a legitimate hazard.  Prefer the way it is actually, there shouldn't be any advantage or benefit given to someone who hits it in a bunker.

As far as Petterson's situation, I feel that it was an unfortunate break for him.  I didn't think he was grounding his club at all.  The fact that he hit a leaf there seemed to be bad luck.  I guess my feeling is that he didn't ground his club, gained no advantage by hitting the leaf, and played the shot the best he could to avoid a penalty.  Same as what happened to Brian Davis at Harbour Town a few years back.  That was in a playoff, which hurt even more than Petterson's, especially in light of the way Rory played.

[Chris Cupit]

From USGA Rules school:  (paraphrasing)

 a club is considered to have been grounded when the club is touching enough of the grass or ground to the extent that the grass or ground supports the weight of the club.  So, with very short grass it may be OK to touch the grass in a hazard and as long as the player is holding the club such that the ground is not supporting the weight of the club they are OK.

My understanding is that the penalty was for moving a loose impediment in a hazard in which ones ball was lying prior to making a stroke.  If the player ticked a leaf on the backswing (a stroke is the FORWARD movement of the club) then that is the breach.  I was surprised at how many golfers where under the impression that one has to "hover" their club above grass in a hazard.  Though if there are a lot of loose impediments laying around, it may be a good idea to hover to avoid moving them in one's backswing.

If that wasn't grounding because he wasn't touching the ground, then it's hard for me to see how a player could "ground" (by touching the ground) his club anywhere there was turf.


Jeff,

This is exactly why the club wasn't considered grounded.  Regardless of how long the grass was, it looked to be more an an inch in length to me, you can have your club touch the grass but not at the bottom of the blade, where the ground meets the bottom of the grass blade.  In a fairway the blades are even shorter and generally everyone rests their club at address at the bottom of the grass blades , on the ground.  

Imagine a shaggy carpet, you could easily touch the club on the carpet without hitting the base, not grounded.  However, if you simply set the club down and let gravity take its course, the club would lower itself to the base of the carpet that would be grounded.