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DMoriarty

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2012, 01:00:53 PM »
Jim,

Great old pics.  Thanks for posting.   

But weren't rollers then used to smooth out rough ground?  Not really an agronomic tool but more of a shaping tool? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bob Harris

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2012, 01:26:23 PM »
Good Lord, now I have seen everything.

Seriously does anyone else think this is going overboard?? Is their intent to squeeze every drop of mositure out of the course?? Can you Shinny an entire fairway and green complex??

Have to go look at the rating manual to see how you treat and rate a fairway with the roll of I 95. Guess bringing a cigar onto the property is a fire risk.

Ed,

Looks like moving the roll adjustment from "firm" to "hard", reducing the EPL by 98 yards.

Bob

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2012, 03:50:38 PM »
C. Squier - Amen to your post #24.  I've been fortunate to be on the grounds at Merion a few times, and it's always been firm and fast.  Amazingly good conditioning. 

To echo what you said, they're trying hard to provide the best possible stage for the 2013 US Open.  One needs to remember that June is often quite wet and they may need these rollers to help get some of the water out of the fairways.


C. Squier

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2012, 05:35:48 PM »
C. Squier - Amen to your post #24.  I've been fortunate to be on the grounds at Merion a few times, and it's always been firm and fast.  Amazingly good conditioning. 

To echo what you said, they're trying hard to provide the best possible stage for the 2013 US Open.  One needs to remember that June is often quite wet and they may need these rollers to help get some of the water out of the fairways.



I remember reading a paper written by a summer grounds crew intern during his stay at Merion in 2015 as the US Am rolled through town.  The detail was incredible and provided a great look into what really goes on during tournament preperations.  For the life of me (30 secs worth of Google searching) I can't find it again.  Hopefully someone else remembers this piece and can find it / post it. 

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2012, 05:55:56 PM »

I remember reading a paper written by a summer grounds crew intern during his stay at Merion in 2015 as the US Am rolled through town. 

Clint,

How do you know Merion is getting the 2015 Amateur? Are you 'reading' grass clippings?  ;D (sorry, couldn't resist)

I think this is what you were looking for:

http://www.hort.iastate.edu/sites/default/files/imported/turfgrass/internreports/docs/merion.pdf
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2012, 06:55:22 PM »

I remember reading a paper written by a summer grounds crew intern during his stay at Merion in 2015 as the US Am rolled through town. 

Clint,

How do you know Merion is getting the 2015 Amateur? Are you 'reading' grass clippings?  ;D (sorry, couldn't resist)

I think this is what you were looking for:

http://www.hort.iastate.edu/sites/default/files/imported/turfgrass/internreports/docs/merion.pdf

Whoops!  Even funnier, I pay dues at the '15 host.  The assessment is probably in the mail for my typo  ;D

Thanks for the link, that's exactly what I was talking about.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2012, 07:01:52 PM »
Jim,

Great old pics.  Thanks for posting.   

But weren't rollers then used to smooth out rough ground?  Not really an agronomic tool but more of a shaping tool? 

Probably, but smoothing out rough ground has an effect on the agronomy, if for no other reason than leveling out the areas that might get scalped or go unmown..

Clint,
Quite an extensive paper, and I guess the young man can be let off the hook for placing Wilson in the UK before construction. ;D

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Randy Thompson

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2012, 09:33:42 PM »

I remember reading a paper written by a summer grounds crew intern during his stay at Merion in 2015 as the US Am rolled through town. 

Clint,

How do you know Merion is getting the 2015 Amateur? Are you 'reading' grass clippings?  ;D (sorry, couldn't resist)

I think this is what you were looking for:

http://www.hort.iastate.edu/sites/default/files/imported/turfgrass/internreports/docs/merion.pdf

Whoops!  Even funnier, I pay dues at the '15 host.  The assessment is probably in the mail for my typo  ;D

Thanks for the link, that's exactly what I was talking about.
great interesting read, thanks!

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2012, 09:50:45 PM »
Good Lord, now I have seen everything.

Seriously does anyone else think this is going overboard?? Is their intent to squeeze every drop of mositure out of the course?? Can you Shinny an entire fairway and green complex??

Have to go look at the rating manual to see how you treat and rate a fairway with the roll of I 95. Guess bringing a cigar onto the property is a fire risk.

Ed,

Looks like moving the roll adjustment from "firm" to "hard", reducing the EPL by 98 yards.

Bob

will let you know thursday  have a 1pm time on the east
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Tony Ristola

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2012, 04:40:53 AM »
If it rains, those rollers won't be of much use. If they do use them after significant rainfall won't there be compaction problems?

Also, won't using them regularly cause compaction problems on even damp fairways; especially clay based soils?

David M.
I believe the rollers of old were used to smooth out surfaces, but the practice was stopped due to... compaction; vaguely recall a USGA Green Section Bulletin on it from decades ago.

I know of a course that used a huge roller on their course when it was young, and they suffered for it. A good freeze should help loosen things up, but if you're in a climate that doesn't get them with regularity... could be a problem.

Chris Tritabaugh

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2012, 08:09:21 AM »
Chris & Ian,

Any studies on the long term effects ?

What additional HOC do/can you get by going to these rollers ?

Michigan St has done a lot of studies on the long-term effects of rolling on turf. In short the studies show only benefits. IMO, rolling can be used both by a large budget course like Merion as it creates the very top conditions and lower budget courses looking to provide an agronomic benefit.

ward peyronnin

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2012, 02:59:30 PM »
I iffer the following from, an interested observer in the hinterlands:

""Regarding the photos of some large steam-rollers on reply #12, they were used as far back as the first decade of the 20th century and even into the 1930s for some various golf construction and maintenance purposes----I have a photo of one parked next to the moved and redesigned green by Perry Maxwell in a 1930s photo of my club. But I also have an article from early on in the 20th century when they were also occasionally used to experiment with increasing green speed at a time when mower cut height may not have been capable of doing lower than perhaps between 1/2-3/4". Travis tried them early on at GCGC to increase green speed. His experiment with using massive steamrollers on GCGC’s putting greens to increase green speed unfortunately did not work well as they practically killed the turf as a result of that experiment due to excessive compaction.

 

Of all the superintendents I've come to know, the one who seems most interested in and informed on the entire history and evolution of golf course maintenance equipment and perhaps all their various uses or misuses over time is ironically Merion’s superintendent, Matt Shaeffer."
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

John Jeffreys

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2012, 08:53:44 PM »
You should google image search a 10 ton cat roller.  Those have been and will continue to be used in major championship preparations. Make sure you watch out for the irrigation heads!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2012, 09:08:09 PM »
"I'm no expert obviously.  But I have seen enough to form a viable opinion."

If an expert chimes in, do you change your opinion?

I'm an expert in the teaching of Spanish. I still change my opinion if someone more expert gives me reason.

Clint, it was a bit snarky. Don't know if it was condescending, but definitely snarky.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2012, 09:21:19 PM »
"I'm no expert obviously.  But I have seen enough to form a viable opinion."

If an expert chimes in, do you change your opinion?

I'm an expert in the teaching of Spanish. I still change my opinion if someone more expert gives me reason.

Clint, it was a bit snarky. Don't know if it was condescending, but definitely snarky.

I've never met Ben, seems like a good guy.....I've enjoyed his posts over the years. However, he's a bit over his skis second guessing Matt Shaffer's work.   I doubt he has lost sleep over my opinion of his stance.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2012, 01:14:52 AM »
Cilnt,

It's much more than just "second guessing Matt Shaffer's work."  I am second guessing an entire industry.  The best part about doing so is that I have much more expertise in another field, and I don't feel very threatened by second guessing another field that I would love to work in one day.  I enjoy the debate and I learn a lot from it.  I wish that you wouldn't look at it as second guessing, but rather a conversation starter.  That is one of our problems in the modern world.  We are so quick to tell someone that they're wrong, rather than explain how they can be right. 

I have no basis to suspect that a supremely talented person like Matt Shaffer isn't doing everything at a the very highest levels.  But he is basing that performance on the traditional benchmark.  Maybe what I am referring to is redefining the benchmark. Maybe my ideas are centered around a more sustainable evolution for turf.  Maybe I want to study the work of people like Don Mahaffey, Dave Hensley, Jeff Sutherland, and Bill Salinetti and form my own opinions about rollers and the use thereof. 

No one wants a military unfettered and unchallenged.  If you as a taxpayer are allowed the right to challenge and question what I do as an officer in the military, why am I not afforded the same opportunity as someone that cares about turf?

Randy Thompson

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2012, 02:35:10 AM »
Ben,
Well stated! Your not alone and your not far off by any means. I too tend to second guess the entire industry and I am doing so from within the industry and have been educated in turfgrass management and spent 38 years in the field. Merion and Augusta and a few select others clubs operate outide the real world and their superintendents have the developed experience to maintain the best conditions in that unrealistic enviroment and I am sure they are the best in that particular niche of courses. Golf development will find particular case studies that work or are proven and continue to grow in new found niches and a good bet for the future will be getting back to the basics and a key word will be sustainable. There will still be clubs that are developed by big name architects and big fee´s, followed up by ridiculous three million dollar yearly maintenance budgets but in my opinion to a less extent and the market is already shifting to the other direction and I suspect will continue to do so in the near future.
 The enitre, rolling any area with a clay base is beyond my comprehension. I get it, with a USGA green, round particles and a base that has a chance to resist compaction and springing back so to speak in a couple of days. But on clay or loamy clay??? Its gonna take more than one or two studies at some University to convience me otherwise. Common sense tell me your destroying the basic structure of the soil or speeding that process. I guess on greens, one could argue, were constantly aerifying and refilling the holes with new, fresh, structured soil. Or maybe they go deep and fill with sand and topdress so frequently that the individual plants function within the sand layer that has built up. But for FAIRWAYS? I agree, it has gone to far and it will probably continue to go further in certain clubs but few clubs will be able to keep that pace but the ones that do will also continue to get the publicity and the new, sustainables approach will get little publicity.

Brett Morris

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2012, 04:30:27 AM »
While I don't really agree with rolling fairways to benefit pro's, one of the real side benefits that something like this could potentially provide is the reduction in fairway fungicide applications as moisture can be taken off the leaf effectively.  The benefit of this alone could justify it's use in regular turfgrass maintenance practices even for clubs where it might seem out of reach financially at present.

Ian Larson

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2012, 08:39:28 AM »
Ben if you are quick to question and second guess what someone like Matt Shaffer is doing for a US Open and basically saying the same stuff you always do about it being a bad example of sustainability why did you choose to go to Augusta National of all places to do your internship or whatever it was? Why not go to your local muni? I'm sure you didn't go to Augusta telling them you would like to come aboard to learn how to NOT do things. What reason did you tell Augusta you wanted to go there?

And everyone, leave Matt alone. He's preparing for the nations biggest tournament. Nothing wrong with firming up the fairways for it. You guys don't even know if Matt actually purchased these and is planning to use them like this as a normal practice. It can be very likely they were donated. They get paid by being able to use the opportunity to use Merion, the Open and their product as a marketing tool. You guys just don't know.

And again, it doesnt matter what they or Augusta choose to do...it's the idiots who go back to their club trying to mimick them and can't communicate to their clubs why they can't do the same things.

Ben Sims

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2012, 10:15:54 AM »
Ben if you are quick to question and second guess what someone like Matt Shaffer is doing for a US Open and basically saying the same stuff you always do about it being a bad example of sustainability why did you choose to go to Augusta National of all places to do your internship or whatever it was? Why not go to your local muni? I'm sure you didn't go to Augusta telling them you would like to come aboard to learn how to NOT do things. What reason did you tell Augusta you wanted to go there?

And everyone, leave Matt alone. He's preparing for the nations biggest tournament. Nothing wrong with firming up the fairways for it. You guys don't even know if Matt actually purchased these and is planning to use them like this as a normal practice. It can be very likely they were donated. They get paid by being able to use the opportunity to use Merion, the Open and their product as a marketing tool. You guys just don't know.

And again, it doesnt matter what they or Augusta choose to do...it's the idiots who go back to their club trying to mimick them and can't communicate to their clubs why they can't do the same things.

Ian,

What are you so angry about?

I didn't "tell" Augusta National anything.  I applied and was accepted.  Simple.  My reasons for being there aren't up for debate by you or anyone else.  I don't find it hypocritical--as you seem to imply--that I believe in sustainability and still wanted to be a part of The Masters. 

Secondly, please do not preach to us about leaving Matt alone.  I doubt he is losing any sleep over any of this, and probably has plenty of good reasons why he is using the rollers.  If architects can be critiqued using pictures on an internet discussion board, then so can a superintendent.  Men are fallible.  That's whole point of debate. 

Instead of you and Clint telling me I'm wrong, how about you make a lucid argument about how a clay-based soil (not a green) can be rolled repeatedly and maintain soil structure.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2012, 10:51:22 AM »
Not angry about anything Ben just asking why you would want to be a part of something that embodies everything but sustainability which is the very thing you are against. Obviously as a learning experience for what you're doing, it's a simple question as to what you expected to learn. And anything with Augusta isn't as simple as applying at McDonalds. Theres a process and, sorry, it just seems like an obvious question that you don't want to answer.

How do you maintain a soil structure in clay based soils that get rolled? Aerification, solid tining, gypsum, humic acids, being a course that doesn't allow golf carts etc etc. the list goes on. Merion can afford to remediate any issue that presents itself. So don't worry, Merions fairways are some of the best conditioned in the world. They're not weak, rolling them is not a crutch and they are not going to lose grass because they destroyed their soil structure.

If you're case is that it's not a good example for cheap, affordable and sustainable golf...well that's the other golf courses issue if they try to go out and roll their fairways, not Merions.

This is going to be an extraordinary event at an extraordinary venue...so it shouldn't be a shocker that they might do extraordinary things for it. And in Merions world, they can sustain rolling their fairways because they can afford it.

Randy Thompson

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2012, 11:07:28 AM »
While I don't really agree with rolling fairways to benefit pro's, one of the real side benefits that something like this could potentially provide is the reduction in fairway fungicide applications as moisture can be taken off the leaf effectively.  The benefit of this alone could justify it's use in regular turfgrass maintenance practices even for clubs where it might seem out of reach financially at present.
Brett,
Short term yes, but what about the long term effects? Everything has it price, Increasing compaction decreases infiltration and perc rates, favoring watering remaining on the surface and favoring disease activity. If you want to take the dew off or remove mositure from the leaf surface, why not use any form of a light weight wide drag. For instances a piece of hose thirty to forty yards wide. Tie onto a golf cart on one end of the fairway-rough border, tie the other end onto another cart on the other side. Both carts travel down the borders, draging the hose across the fiarway. In two hours all fairways have the dew removed and without additional compaction.
 In my opinion, this is a machine that will be justified in few corrses and few circumstances. If it was a new break through and a viable future maintenance tool in a wide spread market, then I think we would see more of their marketing efforts directed towards educating future clients with the benifits and those benifits backed by facts supported by University testing. Instead, there marketing approach seems to be, keep up with the JONES becasue if its good for the Jones, than it gotta be good for us also! Check out thier web page and see for yourself.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 11:16:03 AM by Randy Thompson »

Tony Ristola

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2012, 11:45:14 AM »
While I don't really agree with rolling fairways to benefit pro's, one of the real side benefits that something like this could potentially provide is the reduction in fairway fungicide applications as moisture can be taken off the leaf effectively.  The benefit of this alone could justify it's use in regular turfgrass maintenance practices even for clubs where it might seem out of reach financially at present.
Brett,
Short term yes, but what about the long term effects? Everything has it price, Increasing compaction decreases infiltration and perc rates, favoring watering remaining on the surface and favoring disease activity. If you want to take the dew off or remove mositure from the leaf surface, why not use any form of a light weight wide drag. For instances a piece of hose thirty to forty yards wide. Tie onto a golf cart on one end of the fairway-rough border, tie the other end onto another cart on the other side. Both carts travel down the borders, draging the hose across the fiarway. In two hours all fairways have the dew removed and without additional compaction.

In my opinion, this is a machine that will be justified in few corrses and few circumstances. If it was a new break through and a viable future maintenance tool in a wide spread market, then I think we would see more of their marketing efforts directed towards educating future clients with the benifits and those benifits backed by facts supported by University testing. Instead, there marketing approach seems to be, keep up with the JONES becasue if its good for the Jones, than it gotta be good for us also! Check out thier web page and see for yourself.

Randy,
I think you nailed it. I tend to believe what you wrote and the key words you used were "long term effects".

Aren't a lot of maintenance practices aimed at ridding soils of compaction so there is better water/oxygen exchange, deep rooting and healthy turf? Of course. Long term... rolling compacts, just as maintenance vehicle and foot traffic compacts. It's why we try to get golfers to enter/exit greens from multiple points if possible.

A superintendent relayed a story when he went to a presentation about rolling greens, and they had one portion of the surface that wasn't rolled, one that was rolled once, one twice and one three times. I forget the frequency of rolling, perhaps this was daily over a period. The surface was irrigated and the more often the section of green was rolled, the more water that was visible on the surface; the unrolled surface had percolated all the water.

This superintendent believed the practice of rolling instead of cutting when the greens were heat stressed was not a bad choice at all. As you said Randy... short term.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 11:46:53 AM by Tony Ristola »

Aaron McMaster

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2012, 05:42:55 PM »
While I don't really agree with rolling fairways to benefit pro's, one of the real side benefits that something like this could potentially provide is the reduction in fairway fungicide applications as moisture can be taken off the leaf effectively.  The benefit of this alone could justify it's use in regular turfgrass maintenance practices even for clubs where it might seem out of reach financially at present.
Brett,
Short term yes, but what about the long term effects? Everything has it price, Increasing compaction decreases infiltration and perc rates, favoring watering remaining on the surface and favoring disease activity. If you want to take the dew off or remove mositure from the leaf surface, why not use any form of a light weight wide drag. For instances a piece of hose thirty to forty yards wide. Tie onto a golf cart on one end of the fairway-rough border, tie the other end onto another cart on the other side. Both carts travel down the borders, draging the hose across the fiarway. In two hours all fairways have the dew removed and without additional compaction.
 In my opinion, this is a machine that will be justified in few corrses and few circumstances. If it was a new break through and a viable future maintenance tool in a wide spread market, then I think we would see more of their marketing efforts directed towards educating future clients with the benifits and those benifits backed by facts supported by University testing. Instead, there marketing approach seems to be, keep up with the JONES becasue if its good for the Jones, than it gotta be good for us also! Check out thier web page and see for yourself.

couple quick thoughts...

1.  Rolling is becoming a very valuable practice for superintendents, most recently msu discovered that lightweight greens rolling not only improved the putting surface, allowing the greens to be cut higher yet still attain quality putting speeds with less stress on the turf but in fact cut down on dollar spot (which is where huge portions of a supers spray budget goes on fairways).  It didn't take long for the industry to start asking can we get machines that can provide this practice on a large scale such as fairways to reduce fungicide usage.  There is a lot more positives to the practice but I don't want to write a book.

2.  Merion topdresses their fairways so compaction from lightweight rolling really isn't an issue there (is that sustainable for most tracks..probably not or at least not right now).

3.  Merion is also a walking only course (99%), you need a medical to get a cart there.  Traffic is a funny thing for maintenance.  Too much and you can wear the turf out, compact soils, lose oxygen etc.  Too little and thatch/mat will build and that causes another host of issues that must be addressed.  Rolling at Merion can help find that balance of traffic while reducing the need to aerate excessively and over spray the place.  Less mat/thatch means it's easier to push the turf low on water and rewet it quickly.

4.  There is no doubt that the firm and fast crowd thinks that all you do is turn off the water and things become fast.  No question that this is another tool for Merion to use to create firm fairways on a more regular basis for members and also their upcoming Open.  Especially, in an area of the country with crap soils located in a valley that gets to much rain and too little air movement.

Is it feasable for everyone....no but people are innovative and I can certainly see more products coming to market that can make fairway rolling more economical for a lot of courses.  It has potential to reduce costs yet provide golfers with nice playing conditions.

Bill Shotzbarger

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Re: Rollin, Roolin, Rollin at Merion
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2012, 11:40:20 PM »


4.  There is no doubt that the firm and fast crowd thinks that all you do is turn off the water and things become fast.  No question that this is another tool for Merion to use to create firm fairways on a more regular basis for members and also their upcoming Open.  Especially, in an area of the country with crap soils located in a valley that gets to much rain and too little air movement.


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