Lawsonia and Erin Hills

[Sven Nilsen]

Are they the NGLA and Shinnie of Wisconsin?

Discuss.

[Mike Hendren]

With the exception of what I just typed I can't fathom using Shinnecock Hills and Erin Hills in the same sentence.  As for the National Golf Links of America analogy,  Blue Mound should join Lawsonia Links in the discussion.

Bogey

[Niall Hay]

What about comparing them to National and Sebonack? Or Shinny and Sebonack?

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought Lawsonia was ordinary and a place I would never take guests.  Erin Hills was fantastic.  They are not in the same socioeconomic demographic while Shinny and National are so it is not a valid comparison.

[Steve Salmen]

I recommend everyone to play Lawsonia.  Yes, it's a blue collar area and it does not have a million dollar maintenance budget.  Still, there is nothing close to a weak hole on the course.

I'm interested to know the architectural flaws people have observed.

[Jason Thurman]

John isn't wrong, though I'd still gladly take guests to Lawsonia and I'm sure they'd have a great time. Still, the courses are definitely in different classes. Erin Hills is basically 'roided out by comparison to Lawsonia.

That might be what makes the comparison work. Lawsonia is sporty and fun with stretches of great holes and a reasonable amount of teeth, but you can score there.

Erin Hills is big, bold, really tough, a major championship challenge and still a blast to play. Both are very good courses, but Lawsonia just isn't in the same league as Erin Hills. I've got both firmly in my personal top 10 but with Erin Hills a notch better just by virtue of its property and scale and ability to present a significant challenge to any player.

[John Kavanaugh]

I grew up playing a course by the same architects as at Lawsonia.  Geometry gets boring after a while.  Erin Hills is differential equations.

[PCCraig]

I like Erin Hills a lot more than most people, especially on this site. But if you gave me 10 rounds between the two I would go 7-3 in Lawsonia's favor. Comments about EH's conditioning being in a different class than Lawsonia is laughable as the times I've been to Erin Hills it's been in pretty dodgy shape, and Lawsonia is usually in good to great shape. Sure, Lawsonia's clubhouse and lodging options pale in comparison to Erin Hills but for a golf trip both are functional.

[Steve Salmen]

I think the 18th at Erin is just awful.  650 yards and you're forced to drive between two bunkers, then hit your second away from the green to the right?  Great strategy: hit it long and straight.

[Jason Thurman]

PCraig, I don't think it's just conditions that are in different leagues. The courses are also in different leagues. Lawsonia is probably the better design, but Erin Hills is just a vastly bigger and better property and the finished product is much more elastic and interesting. It can be as sporty as Lawsonia from one set of tees but can challenge the world's best from another set.

For the record, I'd probably split 10 plays 5-5. It's hard for me to choose one or the other, as I love both courses. I'm assuming you've played the current model of Erin Hills. Can you explain what you think Lawsonia offers that Erin Hills doesn't?

You've been fortunate if you've found Lawsonia playing fast and firm with greens stimping 11, as I've found on my visits to Erin Hills in the last year or so.

[William_G]

just was there 2 months ago

loved Lawsonia Links, fun and difficult

Erin Hills on the other hand is an f up;
now a walking course that was designed as a cart course with fescue fairways...it is one helluva a hike ...the championship tees are all on tops of plateaus where hit down to a valley, then back up to an elevated green...no run ups even with a fescue environment..steroidally difficult

[Michael George]

Maybe for architectural guys like many of us, but for the normal golfer.

The NGLA and Shinny of other areas in my opinion (quality and very close location - don't need to be neighbors but have to be really close):

Prairie - Sand Hills and Dismal Doak (say I am premature, fine, but I walked it and it is really special).
South - Pinehurst #2 and Dormie (HM - Kiawah Ocean and Yeamans Hall)
Midwest- Crystal Downs and Arcadia Bluffs (Kingsley is too far for my comparison)
West- Cypress Point and Pebble Beach (layup)
Mountains- Diamond Creek and Grandfather (I hear especially after the C&C renovation)

But the best comparison is probably any 2 of the Bandon golf courses.  I will pick Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes for simplicity sake.

Oh, and I forgot, according to the Donald, Pine Valley and Trump Philadelphia (too close to call which one is better).

[Jason Thurman]

William,

Why on earth did you play the championship tees at Erin Hills? You're surely the first player who's played that course from the tips while looking for ways to use the ground game.

[Sven Nilsen]

Maybe for architectural guys like many of us, but for the normal golfer.

The NGLA and Shinny of other areas in my opinion (quality and very close location - don't need to be neighbors but have to be really close):

Prairie - Sand Hills and Dismal Doak (say I am premature, fine, but I walked it and it is really special).
South - Pinehurst #2 and Dormie (HM - Kiawah Ocean and Yeamans Hall)
Midwest- Crystal Downs and Arcadia Bluffs (Kingsley is too far for my comparison)
West- Cypress Point and Pebble Beach (layup)
Mountains- Diamond Creek and Grandfather (I hear especially after the C&C renovation)

But the best comparison is probably any 2 of the Bandon golf courses.  I will pick Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes for simplicity sake.

Oh, and I forgot, according to the Donald, Pine Valley and Trump Philadelphia (too close to call which one is better).

Michael:

Try that exercise again after comparing how Lawsonia and NGLA are similar, and how each of those two are different from Shinnie and Erin Hills.

[Michael George]

Sven:  That would make my head hurt.  I have to save up my serious thinking for my day job!  However, under this criteria, none of my examples apply.

However, in northeast Ohio, if you want to see 2 completely contrasting styles, yet both fantastic golf courses, see Brookside and CCPP.  I cannot think of one similarity between the designs, but both are great in their own right.   Brookside is full of ubrupt bumps and swales and highly contoured greens.  CCCP is gently rolling with very subtle breaks in its greens.   Brookside is full of angles.  CCPP is pretty straight forward.   Brookside has a routing where you always know where you are at and where others on the course are.  CCPP has a routing which is truly a walk in a wooded park.  

[Bill Seitz]

Prairie - Sand Hills and Dismal Doak (say I am premature, fine, but I walked it and it is really special).
...
Midwest- Crystal Downs and Arcadia Bluffs (Kingsley is too far for my comparison)

While they're pretty close as the crow flies, how long does it take to get from Sand Hills to Dismal?  Google Maps tells me it takes over an hour.  That's a longer drive that Kingsley to Crystal Downs. 

[PCCraig]

PCraig, I don't think it's just conditions that are in different leagues. The courses are also in different leagues. Lawsonia is probably the better design, but Erin Hills is just a vastly bigger and better property and the finished product is much more elastic and interesting. It can be as sporty as Lawsonia from one set of tees but can challenge the world's best from another set.

Jason,

Erin Hills sits on a wonderful property, but what was built there doesn't live up to its potential. I don't know how you could see EH as more interesting as I found the holes to be pretty repetitive with many of the par-4's being long with elevated greens and all the par-5's being unreasonably reached in two. As far as a professional venue EH is obviously a better site, but as far as more interesting course Lawsonia wins hands down. For example, there isn't a hole at EH anywhere near as good as #6, #10 and #13 at Lawsonia in my opinion. I'd love to hear your thoughts as to your favorite par-3, 4, and 5 at EH is and what makes them interesting to you.

For the record, I'd probably split 10 plays 5-5. It's hard for me to choose one or the other, as I love both courses. I'm assuming you've played the current model of Erin Hills. Can you explain what you think Lawsonia offers that Erin Hills doesn't?

Erin Hill's routing is disjointed and all over the map (literally) making for a very difficult walk, it's almost impossible for 10+ handicaps, the conditioning isn't great (slow, wet playing surfaces), and the greens are not that interesting. That being said, yes, the property is awesome and the course is certainly "big." It's fun to play in that it's a stern test of golf (I'm a ~3.5 index), but in the end I find it fairly one-dimensional.

Lawsonia is pure fun, has an awesome set of greens, is interesting and playable for both high and low handicappers, TONS of variety, quirk, and exciting risk-reward possibilities. It'll never hold a major, but it's a vastly superior course in my opinion.

You've been fortunate if you've found Lawsonia playing fast and firm with greens stimping 11, as I've found on my visits to Erin Hills in the last year or so.

Lawsonia has always played plenty firm and fast when I've been there. I've never seen the greens stimping at 11, but I'm not sure I'd want to as that would likely make the greens unputtable.

[Michael George]

Prairie - Sand Hills and Dismal Doak (say I am premature, fine, but I walked it and it is really special).
...
Midwest- Crystal Downs and Arcadia Bluffs (Kingsley is too far for my comparison)

While they're pretty close as the crow flies, how long does it take to get from Sand Hills to Dismal?  Google Maps tells me it takes over an hour.  That's a longer drive that Kingsley to Crystal Downs. 

Bill - 7 miles as the crow flies and a dirt road connecting you to the back entrance of Sand Hills that probably takes 15-20 minutes.  That dirt road was one of the highlights of my trip. 

[Bill Seitz]

Bill - 7 miles as the crow flies and a dirt road connecting you to the back entrance of Sand Hills that probably takes 15-20 minutes.  That dirt road was one of the highlights of my trip. 

I figured there was a short-cut.  Google Maps doesn't recognize the front way into Kingsley for some reason as well.

[Michael George]

Bill - if you go to Google Maps, you can follow the entrance to Dismal River until it dead ends, take a right down a dirt road and then connect to Sand Hills.  Actually kind of fun exercise.

Is there enough contrast in styles to Crystal Downs and Kingsley for them to be comparison to NGLA and Shinny per Sven's question?  Having not played either, I only know what I see in pictures.

[Jason Thurman]

Pat Craig,

I probably agree with you on 6, 10, and 13 at Lawsonia. Those are my three favorites on the course as well, and probably my three favorite holes in Wisconsin. I think Lawsonia has the better par 5s and certainly the better par 3s, but Erin Hills wins for me with the par 4s.

You mention the repetition of elevated tees and greens around Erin Hills. I find the same sort of repetition with Lawsonia's countless dogleg right par 4s. The green angles on those holes keep Lawsonia interesting, but it does sometimes feel like hitting the same tee shot over and over again. I'm also not particularly enthralled with the stretch from 14-17, relatively speaking. They're good holes, but the course peaks a bit too early.

Erin Hills, to me, has the bolder and more varied collection of par 4s. The greens aren't as dramatic, but they're considerably faster which gives them much of the same movement. The distance variation is phenomenal. On my play at Erin Hills, I hit my approaches to par 4s with PW, 3I, 7I, 2I, 3w, 4I, 9I, 6I, SW, and 5I. Granted, I only hit the 2I, 9I, and 3w because of terribly mishit drives. But that's still a different club for every approach and pretty good variation.

Again, I'm splitting hairs as I love both and my preference is sometimes reversed, but I found Erin Hills to be the more interesting test. I also happened to be a 12 handicapper when I played it. I shot 92 and thought I couldn't play much better. A few days later I shot 77 on a different course and felt like I'd played slightly worse. It's certainly tough, but still enjoyable and far from unplayable.  I played it with my 51 year old 30+ handicapper mother who also had a great time. She does prefer Lawsonia herself, but only slightly.

Can't argue on the walk though. It's a tough one.

[Mark Smolens]

Lawsonia let me bring my pull cart, but Erin Hills is too classy for that  . For me the breakdown is 10-0, though it should be noted that I can play the Links four times for the price of one round at EH.

[Evan Louden]

Lawsonia let me bring my pull cart, but Erin Hills is too class for that  .

I just noticed that on their web site... That's the polar opposite of Bandon Dunes where they encourage you to pull the rickshas across the greens. First time I did that was kind of strange.

[Jason Thurman]

To be fair, it would be pretty hard to keep a push cart upright across the walking paths at Erin Hills. There's some really rugged and uneven terrain out there. Golf at Erin Hills is more a good hike spoiled than a good walk spoiled.

[Sven Nilsen]

Lest we confuse the initial question any further, this was not meant to be an exercise in comparing and contrasting Lawsonia and Erin Hills, rather an examination of two courses in an area that represent differing styles of architecture.  I have not played NGLA or Shinnecock, but from my perusal of the many related threads and photo tours and based on my self-admittedly basic understanding of the styles of the their architects, it seems that there is a pretty strong similarity to the contrasting styles presented by these two courses from the Dairyland.  NGLA and Lawsonia are "engineered" courses, while Shinnie and Erin Hills have a much more natural look (this is a very simplistic description, but you get the point).

Just like Milwaukee does not have the bright lights of broadway (nor the stench of streetside garbage collection), Wisconsin does not have the wealth of golf that could be found on Long Island alone.  I'm not comparing the quality of the two by two presented, rather the similarity in the contrast of styles in each duet.  Confused yet?

I was trying to think of other similar pairings of well-regarded courses in the same geographical vicinity, and was having a hard time coming up with the MacRayLandMor side of the equation.