Pacific Coast Amateur at Bandon Resort thru Friday.

[jeffwarne]

delete

[William_G]

probably more to come

I heard the other day that there will be some significant revisions to Bandon Trails this winter.  I have not asked exactly what they will be.

I've never been a big fan of that 14th hole, yet I was pleased to see that Ben and Bill were not afraid to build a hole that they knew would be controversial and to take their lumps for it if necessary.  [And, for David Bartman, I appreciate that you are a good player with an opinion on golf architecture, but do you think that Ben Crenshaw isn't?]

For that reason, I kind of hate to see the naysayers win out and require changes to be made.  I've heard nothing about who is the impetus behind the decision to make the change -- whether it is Bill and Ben, or Mike Keiser -- but sometimes great architecture is controversial.  And, despite the controversy, Bandon Trails has been very well-received and successful ... in fact, it's odd to hear this discussion, when the general consensus seems to have been that Bandon Trails is the course the low-handicap players prefer and respect the most.  [Perhaps it's different when they've got to post their scores!]

In the end, the customer may insist on satisfaction, but that doesn't prove that the customer is always right. 

Mr. Doak

Obviously, BC was a exceptional player and now is a great player, I would love to hear his thoughts on the hole as it was originally built, as well as what the impetus behind the decision to make the change.

Courage to build what might be a controversial hole, from one architect to the next, I get that, but you yourself admit you are not a fan of the hole, does that mean you think its a bad hole?  Are we getting into semantics, I generally don't like things that I think are bad? 

That being said, I have never heard anyone who has played BD, PD and BT indicate that they prefer BT of the three, I'd say I know upwards of 100 people of all skill levels that have played the three course, 50 of which are very good golfers.  ( BTW, most say, including me, PD  ) 

so now the sucking up begins  

[William_G]

BD is much more infront of you, and is actually playable with winds 10-20 mph, Trails not so much. 

The Open Championship had to be delayed at the Old Course due to high winds, as the course was unplayable.

[Richard Choi]

That being said, I have never heard anyone who has played BD, PD and BT indicate that they prefer BT of the three, I'd say I know upwards of 100 people of all skill levels that have played the three course, 50 of which are very good golfers.  ( BTW, most say, including me, PD  ) 

Clearly, you need to do some serious reading on this site before posting stuff like this.

There are quite a few people on this board who have stated that BT is the favorite of the Bandon courses. Read some posts on this site. You may learn something interesting...

[Don_Mahaffey]

I wouldn't call 14 a good hole, but I'm glad they built it and wish every golf course in the world had a hole (or two) like it. Good players hate it because they don't think any hole so short should be so challenging. Building a course with 18 holes that the good players like results in a snore fest. Golf needs more holes like the 14th at BT. Everything doesn't have to logical, predictable, and acceptable to the experts. Lord knows we have enough boring golf holes.

[JLahrman]

That being said, I have never heard anyone who has played BD, PD and BT indicate that they prefer BT of the three, I'd say I know upwards of 100 people of all skill levels that have played the three course, 50 of which are very good golfers.  ( BTW, most say, including me, PD  ) 

BT was not my favorite of the courses at Bandon based on my visit in last year's King's Putter, but I was surprised at how many of the GCAers that were there had Trails as their favorite of the four.

And I didn't really care for #14 at Trails either, but worst hole in America? Surely you jest.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46628.0.html

[Eric Johnson]

The answer, in many cases, is using putter from the fairway for the second shot. 

[Joe Bentham]

Of course, Bandon Dunes has also been changed significantly since opening with all the gorse removal, in effect denuding the Bottle Hole #5.

People still insist on calling this a change?  Bandon Dunes looks more like it did when it opened today then it did 5-6 years ago.  There wasn't any gorse on Bandon when it opened it '99.

[William_G]

Of course, Bandon Dunes has also been changed significantly since opening with all the gorse removal, in effect denuding the Bottle Hole #5.

People still insist on calling this a change?  Bandon Dunes looks more like it did when it opened today then it did 5-6 years ago.  There wasn't any gorse on Bandon when it opened it '99.

Joe,

With all due respect, how come I don't remember it?

[Sean Leary]

Of course, Bandon Dunes has also been changed significantly since opening with all the gorse removal, in effect denuding the Bottle Hole #5.

People still insist on calling this a change?  Bandon Dunes looks more like it did when it opened today then it did 5-6 years ago.  There wasn't any gorse on Bandon when it opened it '99.

Joe,

With all due respect, how come I don't remember it?

Gray, I am guessing it was because the gorse came back fairly quickly, so it is likely that you remember it from early on, but not from the beginning. I was there right after it opened and there was no gorse.

[William_G]

Of course, Bandon Dunes has also been changed significantly since opening with all the gorse removal, in effect denuding the Bottle Hole #5.

People still insist on calling this a change?  Bandon Dunes looks more like it did when it opened today then it did 5-6 years ago.  There wasn't any gorse on Bandon when it opened it '99.

Joe,

With all due respect, how come I don't remember it?

Gray, I am guessing it was because the gorse came back fairly quickly, so it is likely that you remember it from early on, but not from the beginning. I was there right after it opened and there was no gorse.

Yes, gorse grows quickly, when it opened I was busy with my new born son so we didn't get down there.

All I remember is gorse, right and left everywhere and it was tall, not 2 feet but 4-6 feet tall, but I forget what year we first played it either 2000 or 2001.

I am very coachable, so thanks for the info, but I will continue to think of the gorse as how it was until I see some pics as the gorse was dominant everywhere when we first played.

[Mike Benham]

William have you played the hole?  The 14th at BT?

Does anyone know what is the course record at Bandon Trails?  And who holds it?

[Pete_Pittock]

It took me all of one minute to figure it out, but I won't spoil it for others.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

It took me all of one minute to figure it out, but I won't spoil it for others.

I hear some dude that likes family photos on the beach....63 right?

[jeffwarne]

. Building a course with 18 holes that the good players like results in a snore fest.

my new tagline

[Ted Cahill]

probably more to come

I heard the other day that there will be some significant revisions to Bandon Trails this winter.  I have not asked exactly what they will be.

I've never been a big fan of that 14th hole, yet I was pleased to see that Ben and Bill were not afraid to build a hole that they knew would be controversial and to take their lumps for it if necessary.  [And, for David Bartman, I appreciate that you are a good player with an opinion on golf architecture, but do you think that Ben Crenshaw isn't?]

For that reason, I kind of hate to see the naysayers win out and require changes to be made.  I've heard nothing about who is the impetus behind the decision to make the change -- whether it is Bill and Ben, or Mike Keiser -- but sometimes great architecture is controversial.  And, despite the controversy, Bandon Trails has been very well-received and successful ... in fact, it's odd to hear this discussion, when the general consensus seems to have been that Bandon Trails is the course the low-handicap players prefer and respect the most.  [Perhaps it's different when they've got to post their scores!]

In the end, the customer may insist on satisfaction, but that doesn't prove that the customer is always right. 

It is heartening to hear that changes are coming to Bandon Trails.  I am a big fan of this course- and therefore interested in seeing it's shortcomings improved.  I applaud the impetus behind these changes and I hope its Ben, Bill and Mike.  Recognizing what you could have done better in hindsight is not admitting "failure" or capitulating to the naysayers.  Bandon Trails is great architecture- and the couple holes that haven't panned out have left a disproportionate impression on many who have played there.  Those holes were the necessary parts of a bold attempt to route the course in a certain way- they didn't work out as hoped.  By no means a failure.  However, the "14 is our favorite hole on the property" message from the Resort in the face of increasing criticism began to smack of willful denial- and was quite out of character for the resort's leadership.  IMHO- if 14 and 16 are improved to the point of being solid holes that connect other outstanding holes- BT will rise head and shoulder above the other courses on the property.  

[Tom Jefferson]

Eric Johnson speaks!!

[Richard Choi]

Sean is correct. I was there in '99 and gorse was significantly less.

You have to remember that gorse is not native and they had to plant them.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Secondly, if you don't think 14 is a terrible golf hole than I would love for you to explain to me why it isn't terrible?
...

Because it equalizes low and high handicappers. I get sick and tired of hearing low handicappers cry unfair or calling a hole bad when a hole has shots they can't hit. Give me a break. Golf courses are full of shots high handicappers can't hit. Golf should not be about score. When golf was invented, they didn't even keep score. They simply kept track of who was ahead on the hole, and then kept track of holes won and lost. 14 produces wins and losses in match play. What could make a hole better than that? Some hole where a low handicapper can consistently get birdie? par? Those are terrible holes in golf.

[Garland Bayley]

William have you played the hole?  The 14th at BT?

In my opinion, the 14th at BT is bad because it doesn't give you anywhere to hit the ball off the tee that is reasonable to advance the next shot onto the green.  The hole is 325 yards straight downhill to a green that is so small and narrow that its difficult to hit with a wedge.  

The problem with laying up is that there is a severe slope from left to right that puts the players ball significantly below the surface of the green obviously causing the ball to land on the green at an angle , even from a wedge, that makes holding the green a real challenge for good players let alone the average player.

I've seen exceptional players, winners of national amateur tournaments, hit everything from 5 iron to Driver.  Those going for the green prey they don't land on the green due to the fact that the ball will not hold and will go over the green often times into bushes 15 yards over the green.  Those going for the green are really trying to hit in either green side bunker, but most preferably the one on the low ( west ) side of the green, due to the fact that if the pin is middle or front, a good player will have trouble keeping the ball on the green from the (east side) bunker if shooting towards the pin.  

Its the above factors that for me, make the hole ... dreadful and the worst I have played maybe in my life.  

So to review, lay up and get a mostly blind second shot to a green that is difficult to hold with even a wedge, and a green side bunker on the side of the green opposite the approach that will cause you to play away from a front or middle pin, or go for it and hope you don't land on the green, for fear of being in a bush 15 yards over the green, but hope to land in one of two green side bunkers to be able to play towards half the putting surface's pins.  


I think a larger more receptive green with a few tough pin spots for days when they have high quality players in competition would make the hole much much better.  
...

I get it. You want it to be easier. 

[Garland Bayley]

...I personally witnessed very good players , hitting solid shots and not getting the proper results for a wedge.   

So the course presented a shot they couldn't hit. You're breaking my heart here. 

[Garland Bayley]

...  ( BTW, most say, including me, PD  ) 

so now the sucking up begins  

LOL. My thought was, "Oh no, not another Doak BB."

[Garland Bayley]

. Building a course with 18 holes that the good players like results in a snore fest.

my new tagline

Bit of genius there Don.

[Emile Bonfiglio]

You have to remember that gorse is not native and they had to plant them.

Native in the sense that it was not there 500 years ago, but it has been apart of the Bandon area since it was established in the late 1800's.... much longer than BDGR has been around.

[William_G]

Sean is correct. I was there in '99 and gorse was significantly less.

You have to remember that gorse is not native and they had to plant them.

ok got it that Lord Bennett the Mayor of Bandon, Ireland, brought the gorse over from Ireland in the late 1800's.

just seems way different now, way past what could have possibly been as it was in 1999, thanks