Pacific Coast Amateur at Bandon Resort thru Friday.

[David Bartman]

Sven,

Are you really saying that you don't think a vast majority of people that play the hole don't end up down the hill?  I might have overstated, maybe its 75%. The point is when designing that hole one has to know that most shots ( you pick the %) will be hit from the area down the hill.  

Maybe everyone is just a lot more accurate now in 2012, then in 2006 and 2008 when i played there, but i don't think the ability of an average golfer has increased that much over the past 4-6 years.    



 

[Garland Bayley]

...
Maybe everyone is just a lot more accurate now in 2012, then in 2006 and 2008 when i played there, but i don't think the ability of an average golfer has increased that much over the past 4-6 years.    

Maybe on replays they are smarter.

[William_G]

Sven,

Are you really saying that you don't think a vast majority of people that play the hole don't end up down the hill?  I might have overstated, maybe its 75%. The point is when designing that hole one has to know that most shots ( you pick the %) will be hit from the area down the hill.  

Maybe everyone is just a lot more accurate now in 2012, then in 2006 and 2008 when i played there, but i don't think the ability of an average golfer has increased that much over the past 4-6 years.    

most folks now know, after multiple plays, that they want to keep it left for the best angle even if they favor a left to right shot shape

[Pete_Pittock]

Sven,

Are you really saying that you don't think a vast majority of people that play the hole don't end up down the hill?  I might have overstated, maybe its 75%. The point is when designing that hole one has to know that most shots ( you pick the %) will be hit from the area down the hill.  

Maybe everyone is just a lot more accurate now in 2012, then in 2006 and 2008 when i played there, but i don't think the ability of an average golfer has increased that much over the past 4-6 years.    

most folks now know, after multiple plays, that they want to keep it left for the best angle even if they favor a left to right shot shape

Failing to do that they should just hit enough club to carry the bottom of the junk on the hill to get a better angle

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Are you really saying that you don't think a vast majority of people that play the hole don't end up down the hill?  I might have overstated, maybe its 75%. The point is when designing that hole one has to know that most shots ( you pick the %) will be hit from the area down the hill.  

Maybe everyone is just a lot more accurate now in 2012, then in 2006 and 2008 when i played there, but i don't think the ability of an average golfer has increased that much over the past 4-6 years.    

No David, I don't think that a vast majority of people that play the hole end up down the hill.  I think a high majority of players that don't think their way through the hole or underestimate their ability to get a drive up near the green might end up at the bottom of the hill, but they receive the fate they deserve.  As for those that fail to execute a solid gameplan, I'd venture they'd rather have the uphill wedge to a shallow target than a lost ball (whether in the weeds, the water or off the property).  There are many golf holes where the penalty for a tee shot miss is much more severe.

Even if they do, I've seen it birdied from down there on both iterations of the hole by guys I wouldn't put a bet on to finish a round without an X.  Its not an impossible shot, but it does make the hole harder than being left.

You called the 14th the worst hole in America.  That's your opinion.  I think you have plenty of evidence at this point that there are a great number of people who don't agree with that stance.  I, personally, can name 5 holes at Seven Bridges in Chicago that are worse.  The only reason the number isn't higher is because I stopped counting on the 5th hole.

[David Bartman]

Sven,

Are you really saying that you don't think a vast majority of people that play the hole don't end up down the hill?  I might have overstated, maybe its 75%. The point is when designing that hole one has to know that most shots ( you pick the %) will be hit from the area down the hill.  

Maybe everyone is just a lot more accurate now in 2012, then in 2006 and 2008 when i played there, but i don't think the ability of an average golfer has increased that much over the past 4-6 years.    

most folks now know, after multiple plays, that they want to keep it left for the best angle even if they favor a left to right shot shape

And you think most people hit it where they aim?  do you think most people (right handed) hit it right or left of where they aim?  This isn't brain surgery.

This is really laughable

[William_G]

#4 at Trails also had a significant change.

the trees on the right in the shrubby area about 120 out, are gone, so if you push your drive right in the fairway below the ridge, you have a clear, yet blind shot

in the past you could have been blind and dead

[William_G]

Sven,

Are you really saying that you don't think a vast majority of people that play the hole don't end up down the hill?  I might have overstated, maybe its 75%. The point is when designing that hole one has to know that most shots ( you pick the %) will be hit from the area down the hill.  

Maybe everyone is just a lot more accurate now in 2012, then in 2006 and 2008 when i played there, but i don't think the ability of an average golfer has increased that much over the past 4-6 years.    

most folks now know, after multiple plays, that they want to keep it left for the best angle even if they favor a left to right shot shape

And you think most people hit it where they aim?  do you think most people (right handed) hit it right or left of where they aim?  This isn't brain surgery.

This is really laughable

What? I must be missing your sense of humor 

[Will MacEwen]

On my most recent visit it seemed like 16 green had been changed so that balls did not run hard left nearly as much.

I thought 14 was widened at the front again - both holes seemed different this go around (June 2012) than they did in October 2011.

[David Bartman]

It's laughable that a few of you think because one knows to aim to the left side of the fairway that most golfers will be able to achieve the goal of having their ball end up on what is a 10-15 yard ( effective) wide area, from a tee that is 30 yards (?) above the fairway?

 

[William_G]

On my most recent visit it seemed like 16 green had been changed so that balls did not run hard left nearly as much.

I thought 14 was widened at the front again - both holes seemed different this go around (June 2012) than they did in October 2011.

yes the front of 16 was raised about 3 feet this winter

[William_G]

It's laughable that a few of you think because one knows to aim to the left side of the fairway that most golfers will be able to achieve the goal of having their ball end up on what is a 10-15 yard ( effective) wide area, from a tee that is 30 yards (?) above the fairway?

at least they are now aiming there w/o coaching, but based on experience, has to more effective, but you are a pro, LOL

[David Bartman]

Do you really think the B's ( corrected after original post)  didn't design the hole knowing a vast majority of golf balls would be hit from down the slope?  

[Garland Bayley]

Do you really think the Bill's didn't design the hole knowing a vast majority of golf balls would be hit from down the slope? 

So would you have been OK with it if it had been a mirror image that would catch the slices and keep them in a good position for the approach?

[Sven Nilsen]

Who are the Bills?  I thought his name was Ben Crenshaw.

Play the whole 6 more times and lets talk.  Try it once with a 6 iron to the left side of the fairway.

You're arguing the characteristics of a hole you've played twice against guys that have played it multiples of that.  

Get a bit of humility, and perhaps you can accept the multiple agree to disagree's that have been thrown your way so far in this thread.

[Bill_McBride]

Sven,

Are you really saying that you don't think a vast majority of people that play the hole don't end up down the hill?  I might have overstated, maybe its 75%. The point is when designing that hole one has to know that most shots ( you pick the %) will be hit from the area down the hill.  

Maybe everyone is just a lot more accurate now in 2012, then in 2006 and 2008 when i played there, but i don't think the ability of an average golfer has increased that much over the past 4-6 years.    

most folks now know, after multiple plays, that they want to keep it left for the best angle even if they favor a left to right shot shape

I've only played the hole once, but it was pretty obvious standing on the tee that it would be hard to too far left. 

What about comparing #14 BT to #6 Pacific Dunes?   The latter adds the terrifying bunker left and features a short approach to a really small target.  Are all short par 4s supposed to be easy holes?

[David Bartman]

Who are the Bills?  I thought his name was Ben Crenshaw.

Play the whole 6 more times and lets talk.  Try it once with a 6 iron to the left side of the fairway.

You're arguing the characteristics of a hole you've played twice against guys that have played it multiples of that.  

Get a bit of humility, and perhaps you can accept the multiple agree to disagree's that have been thrown your way so far in this thread.

You are correct, and I correct the post that mistakenly listed Ben C as Bill.  

This has zero to do with me personally playing the hole ... Yes I have a mid iron off the tee , I am a very proficient golfer, its not about me.

and the point is seemingly moot because they increased the size of the left portion of the green.  

I am fine with agreeing to disagree.

I have plenty of humility thanks of caring.  


Garland - no I would not think that was a good hole either, my suggestion to fix the hole was to add green ot the front left of the putting surface, they have apparently done something like that.  


Bill - I think the #6 at PD is a great risk/reward par 4.   The landing area off the tee is generous and their isn't much of an elevation change from the fairway to the green if one lays up ( as opposed to the 14th at BT).  Making short irons that are struck properly, land and stay on the green.  ( as opposed to the 14th at BT). 

The risks as you pointed out, are penal for those who go for the green and miss left, into the deep bunker, and right where the ball rolls down below the greens surface. 

[Garland Bayley]

David,

My recollection is that they removed a bunker left of the green, filled the hollow left of the green some so it was not so deep, and added to the rear of the green. Been a long time since I read about it, so someone more in the know please correct.

As I have alluded to before you seem to be too interested in the score on the hole. The 18 handicapper finished the hole with an 8 in a "match". At some point he must have been out of the hole, so why didn't he just pick up. As a good match play hole, it had already settled the question.

[David Bartman]

Garland -

He was playing against a 2 who was making a 6, so he had a putt to tie the hole. 

I couldn't care less about what score someone makes, that certainly isn't important to me.

I was asked why I thought it was a "bad hole " , I indicated that because of the terrain of the tee shot, a vast majority of players will end up down the hill to the right.  From there a well struck short iron has little chance to hold the green.  Others may say that makes a great hole, I think its terrible and like I said, virtually everyone I know that has played the hole thinks it is a terrible hole.  That certainly doesn't see to be the case with this discussion group, although many have said that they don't care for the hole, they are not a fan or that is was the worst on the course. 

I would bet that the B's, ( phew i did it right this time ) had in mind a great risk reward short par 4 , but the hole got away from them and hopefully they were the ones that come back and softened the green complex and surrounds , to better incorporate their initial vision and desire for the hole.  iI they buckled to the pressure of many complaints or didn't like hearing , "nice course except for that 14th!" that is too bad. 

[Garland Bayley]

C&C would be simply complying with the desires of the owner if they change the hole some more.

Again, an old man memory would suggest that I have read they will be widening it to the left.

So the 18 capper could have won the hole by first getting out of the trap the easiest way possible that would make the hole doable, then having 3 to get down. Doesn't sound like a tall order to me.

[William_G]

Bart and Garland @ Trails,

The green is not really wider on the left, but the approach is wider, as the bunker has ben cut in half,...by ten yards.

Plus the shrubs/trees there have been thinned on the left

The green has been widened and slightly raised on the "right" in the front only, to help prevent chips from the left going into the right bunker

The slope on the left side of the green has been smoothed to allow for a well struck chip to have a chance to stay on the green even with a front hole location

A well struck wedge from 70 yards out down in the valley on the right will stay on the green as it did 2 weeks ago when I had a 76 at Trails from the black tees.

Bulls and china shops don't mix

[David Bartman]

Garland,

you were not there and never played the original hole!

but to cure your curiosity, it wasn't clear that the 2 was going to make a six when the the 18 was hitting their 3rd shot.  

I'm done with you on this particular thread, and I don't mean to be rude or come off that way, you and I can agree to disagree on the 14th at BT.  


William,

Glad to hear that its playable form down below for seemingly a low handicapper. 

FWIW - I spoke to two players at the Pac Coast yesterday and today after playing the hole again, and they both still hate the hole. 

[William_G]

Garland,

you were not there and never played the original hole!

but to cure your curiosity, it wasn't clear that the 2 was going to make a six when the the 18 was hitting their 3rd shot.  

I'm done with you on this particular thread, and I don't mean to be rude or come off that way, you and I can agree to disagree on the 14th at BT.  


William,

Glad to hear that its playable form down below for seemingly a low handicapper. 

FWIW - I spoke to two players at the Pac Coast yesterday and today after playing the hole again, and they both still hate the hole. 

note the lower average score today at Trails, multiple plays, hahaha

David,

My buddy hit the wedge, and others have too as long as the hole is middle or back.

I assume the 2 you spoke with are out of it, ala Jack Nicklaus scratching folks off the list?

I do have trouble with "hate" about a golf hole, I mean I know Jim Furyk hates golf, so I guess if golf becomes a job, you could become more in touch with hate about golf....

but that's not me 

also, just because you spoke with someone(s) who also hate(s) something, doesn't improve the strength of your hate opinion, but you can feel better about them

cheers 

[Sven Nilsen]

 

What about comparing #14 BT to #6 Pacific Dunes?   The latter adds the terrifying bunker left and features a short approach to a really small target.  Are all short par 4s supposed to be easy holes?

Bill:

I think its harder to get in a good position for your approach on the 6th at PD than it is at the 14th at BT.  On the 6th, the prevailing wind makes finding the right side of the fairway around the corner that much more difficult.  I think the carry scares alot of golfers into going left, which leaves the shot from a bad angle, uphill, over the bunker.  Even if you are in good position, the green is pretty narrow and the punishment for a miss to the right is only slight better than the penalty for a miss to the left.

Sven

[Bill_McBride]

 

What about comparing #14 BT to #6 Pacific Dunes?   The latter adds the terrifying bunker left and features a short approach to a really small target.  Are all short par 4s supposed to be easy holes?

Bill:

I think its harder to get in a good position for your approach on the 6th at PD than it is at the 14th at BT.  On the 6th, the prevailing wind makes finding the right side of the fairway around the corner that much more difficult.  I think the carry scares alot of golfers into going left, which leaves the shot from a bad angle, uphill, over the bunker.  Even if you are in good position, the green is pretty narrow and the punishment for a miss to the right is only slight better than the penalty for a miss to the left.

Sven

From bitter personal experience I can say NEVER, NEVER get in that left bunker!

By contrast BT #14 was hybrid way left, PW to the back, two putts.