Pacific Coast Amateur at Bandon Resort thru Friday.

[Pete_Pittock]

The first round of the tournament was played Tuesday over the Bandon Trails course. It is reduced to a par 70 with the 3rd hole playing at par 4 513 yard, downwind. The two leaders were even par. Wednesday (today) they switch over to the Bandon Dunes course, which is playing to a par 72 at two paces short of 7000 yards. They repeat Trails Thursday and back to Dunes for the final round on Friday.
Weather forecast is mid 60s, slight chance of showers and prevailing winds of 10-15 from generally north.

Scores: http://www.ghintpp.com/rga/TPPOnlineScoring/ResultsStroke.aspx?type=players&id=33  

Hole scoring stats: http://www.ghintpp.com/rga/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=33

[David Bartman]

Scores will be lower on BD today, BT has maybe the worst hole in America and a few others that need to be redone, that being said it also has some terrific holes.  Those bad holes make the course play much harder than it should. 

BD is much more infront of you, and is actually playable with winds 10-20 mph, Trails not so much. 

[Emile Bonfiglio]

David-

Which hole are you referring to? I think I know, but would like your thoughts.

[Pete_Pittock]

Link to hole statistics. Hole #14 at Trails was the 5th easiest, 18 was the most difficult
http://www.ghintpp.com/rga/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=33
The early past of the field is averaging over 40 on the opening nine holes at Bandon Dunes.

[Garland Bayley]

... BT has maybe the worst hole in America ...

You don't get out to play golf much do you?

There are driving ranges that sell memberships for guys like you. 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

David is probably talking about 14 but BD has several much bigger architectural busts like 3rd shot on 13, 16 and 17.  But this is not time or place. Trails has some incredibly good and hard par 3's. I think the event being there is wonderful for golf and I envy those playing there this week.

[Matthew Essig]

David is probably talking about 14 but BD has several much bigger architectural busts like 3rd shot on 13, 16 and 17.  But this is not time or place. Trails has some incredibly good and hard par 3's. I think the event being there is wonderful for golf and I envy those playing there this week.

I happen to love #16!!!

It is not only strategic, but is site of probably the most creative and memorable shot I have ever hit: a 30 yard putt that rode the collection slope just to the right of the pot bunker short left of the green and curled up to a foot from the pin that was only a few paces behind the pot bunker.

[David Bartman]

First of all, Garland, I have probably played more golf than you will ever play in your lifetime, so please don't assume you know me or my golf experience.  

Secondly, if you don't think 14 is a terrible golf hole than I would love for you to explain to me why it isn't terrible?

Tiger, Yes, I was referring the 14 , it is really terrible, as is 18.  BD certainly has some flaws as well, but nothing compared to those found at BT.  Pacific is far superior to either BD or BT, I have not played OM.  

[Evan Louden]

http://www.ghintpp.com/rga/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=33

This is a good example of some strange "par" designations. Looks like at Trails #3 is still a par 5 and #18 should be.

[David Bartman]

http://www.ghintpp.com/rga/TPPOnlineScoring/CourseStats.aspx?id=33

This is a good example of some strange "par" designations. Looks like at Trails #3 is still a par 5 and #18 should be.

Evan I noticed that #3 should have stayed a par 5 also based on the scoring average of almost 5,  18 is certainly a par 4, its just really really poor, hence the 18 doubles and 11 others out of 78 players. ( That's over 37% making 6 or worse and almost 77% making 5 or worse.  )

[William_G]

Scores will be lower on BD today, BT has maybe the worst hole in America and a few others that need to be redone, that being said it also has some terrific holes.  Those bad holes make the course play much harder than it should. 

BD is much more infront of you, and is actually playable with winds 10-20 mph, Trails not so much. 

wow...a little hate for Trails...

David,

What makes a golf hole bad?

Thanks

[Will Lozier]

David Bartman,

How many times have you played BT?

I've caddied and played many many times on each course and have seen all these holes played in many many ways.  I'd love to know WHY you feel so strongly about all the holes you are hating?

And Tiger,

#16 at BT a terrible hole?!?  How many times have you played it?

Cheers

[William_G]

FWIW

Trails is the only course at Bandon with its 4 finishing holes into the prevailing summer wind.

There have been modifications at Trails already to help address it's difficulty in the closing holes:

14 green's approach has been widened on the left by 10 yards by reducing the bunker size, oppened up on the left by removing trees and shrubs, green widened, left of the green softened to better accept chips.

16 green has been raised by a yard at the front left

18 fairway has been opened up in the landing area on the left

probably more to come

also Trails is less than 10 years old...I am cellaring wine longer than that to allow for maturity and change

[David Bartman]

William have you played the hole?  The 14th at BT?

In my opinion, the 14th at BT is bad because it doesn't give you anywhere to hit the ball off the tee that is reasonable to advance the next shot onto the green.  The hole is 325 yards straight downhill to a green that is so small and narrow that its difficult to hit with a wedge.  

The problem with laying up is that there is a severe slope from left to right that puts the players ball significantly below the surface of the green obviously causing the ball to land on the green at an angle , even from a wedge, that makes holding the green a real challenge for good players let alone the average player.

I've seen exceptional players, winners of national amateur tournaments, hit everything from 5 iron to Driver.  Those going for the green prey they don't land on the green due to the fact that the ball will not hold and will go over the green often times into bushes 15 yards over the green.  Those going for the green are really trying to hit in either green side bunker, but most preferably the one on the low ( west ) side of the green, due to the fact that if the pin is middle or front, a good player will have trouble keeping the ball on the green from the (east side) bunker if shooting towards the pin.  

Its the above factors that for me, make the hole ... dreadful and the worst I have played maybe in my life.  

So to review, lay up and get a mostly blind second shot to a green that is difficult to hold with even a wedge, and a green side bunker on the side of the green opposite the approach that will cause you to play away from a front or middle pin, or go for it and hope you don't land on the green, for fear of being in a bush 15 yards over the green, but hope to land in one of two green side bunkers to be able to play towards half the putting surface's pins.  


I think a larger more receptive green with a few tough pin spots for days when they have high quality players in competition would make the hole much much better.  


Will - I have played BT 2x , once on a very windy and difficult day and again on a fairly benign day.  I really like holes 2,3,9 and think #11 is one of the best of all of the courses at Bandon.   The other holes that I think are poor are, 1,4 or 6 ( cant remember which is which) ,14,18   ( nothing like poor bookmarks for a course ) The main problem with BT is that it almost become unplayable if the wind comes up, and we all know that the area tends to be windy a significant amount of the time.  

[David Bartman]

Well,

They are certainly attempting to fix the problems with 14 and 18, good for them, glad to hear it.  Maybe I might know what a bad hole plays like!

[William_G]

David,

I always like playing Trails and find no holes as "bad". I have played there a lot there since before it opened, love it.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on what is bad as the changes at Trails just make "easier".

I think you could substitue the word "difficult" for "bad" in your post and more golfers would understand how you look at things.

Since you are a pro who regained his amateur status, I have a vague idea of how competitive you are.

Thanks

[Michael Dugger]

David Bartman,

Welcome to the thunderdome, broseph, we always enjoy a good scrum around here.  

You best get your typing fingers warmed up, however, because sniping is not an acceptable form of communication.

Be careful dropping broad generalizations, because regardless of how much golf you have played in your lifetime, there is bound to be someone around here who has played as much or more.

And that's not really the point.  

Some like Chardonnay, others like Pinot Noir.  There is room enough in golf for all sorts of architecture.

I'm not the biggest fan of the 14th either, but it's far from the worst hole in all of golf.  It's one of those where you need to have a sense of humor.  It can ruin a good round, no doubt, but it's playable.  It's dramatic.  I've nearly driven the green. I've seen double digits up on that tiny little green too.

There are contributors to this site who helped build those courses, and others who make a career of taking care of them.

Calling BT horse bleep just isn't acceptable, or respectful to them.  More explaining what features you do not like and less broad sweeping generalizations please and thanks.  

Your initial comments have me thinking you are a card and pencil kind of guy.  Perhaps you aren't soulful enough in your golf to appreciate a course like BT.

And that's fine too.  There are plenty of tree lined courses for you to enjoy.  Might I ask, what do you think of Rees Jones' work?

  

[David Davis]

David,

I really didn't see any of the courses at Bandon as having terrible holes, although hole 14 on BT certainly stuck out as one of the worst on those courses, that I agree with. A big problem is that it's not playable for everyone. I think really good players will just make par and be happy with that and leave. I would of love to hear if anyone has gone for the green and actually ended up on it. They would of had to of performed quite a prayer first. Due to the green I think the main way to play it is hit it as close as you can, which will of course roll down below to the right then hit a lob wedge into the middle of the green and hope it holds.

I played it twice, both the way I just mentioned and walked off with par twice, I was happy enough with that. I'm guessing anyone above a 10-15 hcp might end up with a high score, depending on what the caddie advises them.

I had a caddy called Coach, who was or had been a local high school golf coach forever, a spiritual man with a great outlook, certainly one of the best caddies I've ever had. Although only partially for his ability. I highly recommend him.

In my opinion, when the wind is up, we will see BD and PD playing far more difficult than BT in the same conditions.

[Alex Miller]

First of all, Garland, I have probably played more golf than you will ever play in your lifetime, so please don't assume you know me or my golf experience.  

As Grey might say "LOL"


I think a lot of people have a huge problem with 14 because they have expectations which are unjust for the hole. It's a tricky little one, but that doesn't mean 3 or 4 should be the only scores in the equation, even for the scratch player. If it were the worst hole in America, I don't think I'd ever leave any golf course.

Love the course overall; think that 14 is one of the weaker holes; it is a controversial hole, but not a bad one.

[Tom_Doak]

probably more to come

I heard the other day that there will be some significant revisions to Bandon Trails this winter.  I have not asked exactly what they will be.

I've never been a big fan of that 14th hole, yet I was pleased to see that Ben and Bill were not afraid to build a hole that they knew would be controversial and to take their lumps for it if necessary.  [And, for David Bartman, I appreciate that you are a good player with an opinion on golf architecture, but do you think that Ben Crenshaw isn't?]

For that reason, I kind of hate to see the naysayers win out and require changes to be made.  I've heard nothing about who is the impetus behind the decision to make the change -- whether it is Bill and Ben, or Mike Keiser -- but sometimes great architecture is controversial.  And, despite the controversy, Bandon Trails has been very well-received and successful ... in fact, it's odd to hear this discussion, when the general consensus seems to have been that Bandon Trails is the course the low-handicap players prefer and respect the most.  [Perhaps it's different when they've got to post their scores!]

In the end, the customer may insist on satisfaction, but that doesn't prove that the customer is always right. 

[jeffwarne]

\ 

BD is much more infront of you, and is actually playable with winds 10-20 mph, Trails not so much. 

Is there a course that's behind you?

[William_G]

probably more to come

I heard the other day that there will be some significant revisions to Bandon Trails this winter.  I have not asked exactly what they will be.


In the end, the customer may insist on satisfaction, but that doesn't prove that the customer is always right. 

hopefully nothing too significant and similar to what has been done so far.

Of course, Bandon Dunes has also been changed significantly since opening with all the gorse removal, in effect denuding the Bottle Hole #5.

Look at the average score in the tournament...Bandon Dunes is significantly lower than Trails regardless of par under the same conditions as yesterday.

No doubt, but golfers may in general just prefer easier courses

lower numbers are more likely to cause a release of endorphin

[David Bartman]

Mr. Dugger -

First of all, I didn't call BT horse bleep I said it had a terrible hole, maybe the worst in America, and some other bad ones, as well as some terrific holes.  

When did you play 14?  It sounds as if they made it more playable by expanding the green to the left, allowing shots to hold.  

As to my reply to Garland, it was his post that had no substance, claimed I hadn't played much golf and should join a driving range, that sir I took offense to.  

If someone is offended by one person's opinion of their golf hole then they can come on here and defend their design, I would love to hear what Bill and Ben were thinking when they designed this hole.  That being said, its just my opinion, did they think that when they built a golf course that everyone was going to like it?

[David Bartman]

David,

I really didn't see any of the courses at Bandon as having terrible holes, although hole 14 on BT certainly stuck out as one of the worst on those courses, that I agree with. A big problem is that it's not playable for everyone. I think really good players will just make par and be happy with that and leave. I would of love to hear if anyone has gone for the green and actually ended up on it. They would of had to of performed quite a prayer first. Due to the green I think the main way to play it is hit it as close as you can, which will of course roll down below to the right then hit a lob wedge into the middle of the green and hope it holds.

I played it twice, both the way I just mentioned and walked off with par twice, I was happy enough with that. I'm guessing anyone above a 10-15 hcp might end up with a high score, depending on what the caddie advises them.

I had a caddy called Coach, who was or had been a local high school golf coach forever, a spiritual man with a great outlook, certainly one of the best caddies I've ever had. Although only partially for his ability. I highly recommend him.

In my opinion, when the wind is up, we will see BD and PD playing far more difficult than BT in the same conditions.

BT plays a ton harder in the wind then either BD or PD , it was that way in the US Mid-am , its that way today at the Pac Coast, its a far more penal golf course , borderline unfair, when the wind blows.  ( I haven't played it since they softened the green @ 14 and widened fairway at 18 ) so the unfair part may no longer be deserved. 

For the record, I am even par on 14, one bird and one bogey.  I went for the green both times with 3 wood trying to end up just short or on the front of the green.  Right bunker for birdie and down the hill right was bogey , i hit a bad 3 wood and a bad l wedge up the hill.  My assessment has zero to do with my personal score on the hole, I personally witnessed very good players , hitting solid shots and not getting the proper results for a wedge.   

[David Bartman]

probably more to come

I heard the other day that there will be some significant revisions to Bandon Trails this winter.  I have not asked exactly what they will be.

I've never been a big fan of that 14th hole, yet I was pleased to see that Ben and Bill were not afraid to build a hole that they knew would be controversial and to take their lumps for it if necessary.  [And, for David Bartman, I appreciate that you are a good player with an opinion on golf architecture, but do you think that Ben Crenshaw isn't?]

For that reason, I kind of hate to see the naysayers win out and require changes to be made.  I've heard nothing about who is the impetus behind the decision to make the change -- whether it is Bill and Ben, or Mike Keiser -- but sometimes great architecture is controversial.  And, despite the controversy, Bandon Trails has been very well-received and successful ... in fact, it's odd to hear this discussion, when the general consensus seems to have been that Bandon Trails is the course the low-handicap players prefer and respect the most.  [Perhaps it's different when they've got to post their scores!]

In the end, the customer may insist on satisfaction, but that doesn't prove that the customer is always right. 

Mr. Doak

Obviously, BC was a exceptional player and now is a great player, I would love to hear his thoughts on the hole as it was originally built, as well as what the impetus behind the decision to make the change.

Courage to build what might be a controversial hole, from one architect to the next, I get that, but you yourself admit you are not a fan of the hole, does that mean you think its a bad hole?  Are we getting into semantics, I generally don't like things that I think are bad? 

That being said, I have never heard anyone who has played BD, PD and BT indicate that they prefer BT of the three, I'd say I know upwards of 100 people of all skill levels that have played the three course, 50 of which are very good golfers.  ( BTW, most say, including me, PD  )