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CHrisB

Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« on: July 02, 2003, 11:56:33 AM »
Just returned from a trip to Michigan where, among other courses, I played Arcadia Bluffs. We were completely fogged in and had to wait 3 hours to play, but it was worth the wait in the end, as the back nine was sunny and warm with a one club breeze off Lake Michigan. We played the black tees at 7300 yards, par 72, 75.1/143. The Sunday green fee was $160.

What I (*=really) liked:
1*. The greens--interesting combination of bold and subtle contours, and by far the best greens I've ever played at a public course under non-tournament conditions; they rolled fast and true.
2*. The closely mown areas around many of the greens which allowed for a variety of short shots, with the possibility in some cases of putting from 20-30 yards off the green. These areas are tight, fast, and roll true--the closest to what you might find at TOC that I've seen in the U.S.
3*. No tee markers--There was one set for the forward tees, but no others. You choose which tee you want to play and then tee off from anywhere on that tee. Each tee is marked by a colored plaque in the center of the tee.
4. The routing, starting on higher ground away from the lake and then moving to and from the lake so that the lakeside holes were #5, #9, #15, and #16. Three par 5's in the first five holes helped get play off to a fast start, and the pace stayed good the whole way around. There were a few long distances between greens and tees, though.
5. The use of wide fairways and central hazards, and also bunkers which would seem out of play that actually work--for example, there is a bunker about 40-50 yards short-right of the uphill dogleg right 12th hole that doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than to obscure the target, but after I hit it in the deep right rough and had to try to run it on, it was right there waiting for me. There were central bunkers on the 3rd, 11th, and 18th.
6. The atmosphere--the lake, the dunes, the high dune grasses, the lush green short grasses, the clubhouse...  And the dunes were convincing, not over-the-top like Tobacco Road and others.
7. The practice facility--practice greens/bunkers represent what you'll see on the course; nice tight bent grass practice tee.

What I didn't like:
1. The severe green contours weren't as enjoyable on the blind greens; you couldn't tell where the ridges were and so picking a target was a wild guess. For example, on the 195-yard par-3 6th the pin was on the right side, so I hit it 25 feet left of the pin, only to catch a ridge and have the ball funnel down to the fron left of the green, maybe 70 feet away.
2. The 14th hole has a thrilling tee shot over a directional marker to a valley fairway, but a deep vertical-wall greenside bunker covers the left side of the green, which is fine if the pin is on the right side. But for a left-hand pin, you either hit a long iron over the bunker to a green running away, or hit to the right and putt over a steep spine in the green. After the difficulty of the drive, it seemed a little much to me. I missed the green left and actually had an easier shot, using a hill behind the pin to get it close.
3. #18 was a little awkward looking; it didn't seem to have enough fairway and although the backdrop of the clubhouse was interesting, we had to walk left and forward 30-40 yards to see where the pin was. After the round, we sat in the lawn chairs behind the green to watch our other group come in, but couldn't see them in the fairway. I liked the hole (& birdied it!), but just not as a finishing hole. But then again, CPCC and Ballybunion have awkward uphill finishing holes, so...

Favorite holes:
#3, 530 yds, well-bunkered par-5 up to a plateau green,
#8, 486 yds, downhill par-4 with sloping fairway and chocie to fly it on or use the left-right contours to run it on,
#9, 240 yds, par over a canyon to a perched green, with a bunker center-right exactly where you want to aim; the drop in elevation make the green receptive despite the yardage,
#13, 203 yds, nice drop-shot par-3 in a valley below the clubhouse,
#14 tee shot, 481 yds blind over an intruding dune to a valley fairway,
#15, 633 yds, long tumbling par-5 with mountainous fairway funneling down and left into a valley to a saddle green with the lake as a backdrop,
#16, 431 yds, alternate-route par-4 along the edge of the bluff; hug the left side closest to the cliff for the short route, or play right for the longer route but a better angle to the left pins.

Least favorite holes:
#6, 195 yds, hidden green contours as described earlier,
#10, 340 yds, neat short tight par-4 up and left through high dunes, but the front bunker rivals the Strath and TOC for depth, which is neat, but unlike the Strath the green here runs away from the bunker. We hit balls out of it and had to have a perfect lie to get out, which was fine, but we wouldnt have wanted to play out backwards because then we'd just have to pitch it over the bunker to the runaway green. Again, a little much,
#14 approach (see above).

All in all, Arcadia Bluffs was a tremendous experience, one that I would highly recommend. If you could go back-to-back at Arcadia and Crystal Downs, that would be hard to top.

(We also played TimberStone and Pine Grove in Iron Mountain in the Upper Peninsula, a couple of mountainous courses with tall pines lining undulating fairways; it was like kicking a field goal on every shot. Finally, we played Shepherd's Hollow in Clarkston near Detroit, an Arthur Hills course with fast, wildly undulating bent grass fairways and deep encroaching fairway bunkers; the rating/slope was 76.0/147!!!)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2003, 12:11:17 PM by ChrisB »

CHrisB

Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2003, 12:02:26 PM »
I didn't have a digital camera, so I couldn't take pics, but here are some from the Arcadia Bluffs website that are fairly representative:

The par-3 2nd:

The 8th from the right side of the fairway:

The par-3 9th:

The par-4 14th from the left-hand dunes; play is from the right of the picture; when the pin is back left, you have to carry a long iron over the bunker to a fallaway green or play right and putt over the steep spine:

The green at the 633-yard 15th:

The par-3 17th:
« Last Edit: July 02, 2003, 12:11:53 PM by ChrisB »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2003, 02:29:20 PM »
ChrisB:

Darren Kilfara recently wrote about the importance of doing "good" good or bad course reviews. I think your review meets that standard. Well done.

I played Acardia Bluffs a few years back and came away with the following feelings:

1) I thought Herb Kohler would be upset because all the money he spent developing Whistling Straits probably didn't result in a course much more fun to play than Arcadia.

2) I wasn't a big fan of the bunker you liked on #9. Seemed like overkill to me, especially for people playing the hole in the 220-240 yard range.

3) I really enjoyed #18 and thought it made for a good finishing hole. Mind you I always enjoy the walk up #18 at Ballybunion, so maybe you should be surprised.

4) There seemed to be a clash in bunker styles - a point Dick Daley enjoyed and I found distasteful. The same sort of thing exists at Doonbeg and I haven't enjoyed it much there either.

Overall, I think the vast majority of golfers would enjoy Acardia even if it doesn't compare to Crystal Downs up the road.

Again thanks for the detailed report, including the pictures. I especially liked your report format, i.e., what you liked and didn't like overall, holes you liked and didn't like, etc.
Tim Weiman

JakaB

Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2003, 03:53:33 PM »
Chris,

Very nice but I must ask....Items 1 & 2 that you don't like...do you really think its fair to the local residents or members that quirk that may be unenjoyable for the one time player be eliminated from design...It worries me when I see public layouts either dumbed down or visualized for the one time visitor.   Or would you not like these features on a day to day basis either....thanks again for the hard work you put into this write up.   JB

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2003, 04:34:02 PM »
Chris,

Great write up & photo's. I think Arcadia Bluffs is a poster child for how to build great green complexes that are challenging to the top pro and funn for all others. The biaritz green on the par 5 5th, the massive 6th and the 14th are all memorable.

The views from the porch into the setting sun are spectacullar.

If this course was built eslwhere, it would would be lauded upon like few others.
Integrity in the moment of choice

CHrisB

Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2003, 07:28:40 PM »
Chris,

Very nice but I must ask....Items 1 & 2 that you don't like...do you really think its fair to the local residents or members that quirk that may be unenjoyable for the one time player be eliminated from design...It worries me when I see public layouts either dumbed down or visualized for the one time visitor.   Or would you not like these features on a day to day basis either....thanks again for the hard work you put into this write up.   JB
JakaB,

That's a good question, and when I think about it I should have listed these under "Things I didn't like as much as the things I really liked" because it's not like I was turned off or had any unpleasant feelings about them. With regard to the blind greens with bold contours, I would look forward to return rounds there now that I have a better idea of what the greens look like, and I'll bet these holes become more fun the more times I play them. I'm not sure if I'd enjoy playing #14 as much if the pin was always left, but who knows? Maybe I'd figure out the right shot and gain enjoyment out of that.

I love quirky, funky, and even goofy holes and wouldn't want them removed from any course in the interest of "fairness" (which I think should have way less of a place in golf than many). And I wouldn't change the things I listed above; they just didn't turn me on as much as the rest of the course.

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2003, 10:06:00 PM »
Arcadia is really an underrated course IMHO.  As good as the reviews it got, it should be ranked higher.
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2003, 11:41:41 PM »
Chris-
Nicely done, this is the type of review that keeps me coming back to GCA, well thought out -- I learned alot about a course I've played 10 times and consider one of my favorites though I'm much less astute at determining why.

There was a good discussion between the Architect of AB, Warren Henderson and Tom Doak a while back that's worth looking at if you missed it.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=118;start=100

I'd love to be part of that foursome.

I'll be playing  AB at least once next week and am chomping at the bit. Having played several times I agree with JakaB that part of the beauty of this course is you discover many things the more you play it. While true of all courses I think AB in particular has many startegic twists.

For example:
#1 If you hit you second shot well left of the green you leave a much more open approach then leaving a half wedge over a yawning bunker that can be brutal to get out of if you go right at it.

#3 The Skyline green is very deceptive and in fact it's really a skyine fairway. It looks like there's no place to miss but there plenty of room right if you trust it.

#5 which Tom Doak had an issue with is  relatively straight forward if you're willing to hit two shots down the fairway an attack the biarritz with a medium iron, go for it in 2 though and you have the unpleasant task of hitting a fairway wood at it diagonally.

I could go on and on but I find there to be no weak holes and several of the ones Chris pointed out are terrific. Sounds like the routing will change next year which is my only gripe as 18 isn't a representative finish.

If anyone would like to join me for the first twilight tee time at 4 pm Saturday the 5th drop me a note as I think my Wife is going to bail.

Buck




Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2003, 12:00:26 AM »
Buck:

Can you expand on your comments about #18? Do you not like the hole? Do you not think it fits for a closing hole?

Tim Weiman

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2003, 12:50:16 AM »
Warren Henderson is a lurker on this web site and I'm sure he would comment if you ask a question.  He has a web site which you may want to look up.

Arcadia looked pretty aweful when I first drove on the property a few years ago but after you play it the mounding really works well.  Its a hard golf course for the average Joe but very fair if you place the ball in the right spot.  Our group had a bunch of birdies.  

I still have an issue with the par 3 10th which seemed to me that the green wasn't receptive to most shots especially from the back tee when you have to hit 3 wood or something very long.

All in all its an excellent test and unique.

Brian_Ewen

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Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2003, 01:49:30 AM »
Guys
More Arcadia Bluffs photos can be found at :

http://gallery.consumerreview.com/golf/gallery/Courses.asp

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2003, 12:57:41 PM »
Tim-
I've always found 18 to be an awkward hole that is always a bit of a let down for a finisher on a very good golf course (a small gripe admittedly). The green is very severe for what is usually a crap shoot of a shot even from the correct side of the fairway. From the right (wrong) side of the fairway you really almost need a fore caddie to tell you where your ball is if you miss the green, plus you almost have to walk all the way to the green just to get a line. If the green was more like the punchbowl on #4 I would think it a better hole, in fact you could switch those two green sites and improve both. #4's not that difficult of a hole and you have a down hill punchbowl green where everything feeds to the middle.


Here's the website's description:
"This is an incredibly strong finishing hole. The desired line is over or slightly right of the fairway sod-wall bunker. Aiming right or left will avoid the bunker, but add yardage and difficulty to the approach. Add to your yardage to accommodate for the 50 feet of elevation on your approach.

This green is depressed into the hillside with no surrounding bunkers. Reasonably well-struck shots will feed to the putting surface. "

I am anxious to see how the change to 18 Warren Henderson talked about will effect my perception -- it sounds like they dumbed it down for me and others who miss right on their tee ball.

Buck

Warren- Could you give us an idea of what #18 would be in the alternative routings?
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Warren_Henderson

Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2003, 01:58:10 PM »
ChrisB:

To address a few of your dislikes I offer the following.

6th Hole - This green sits in a natural amphetheater setting. The various elevation changes in the green surface are a reflection of the way the existing slopes and ridges worked down off the preexisting hillside. The fronting bunker on this hole is certainly the most obvious hazard but I believe the contours of the green itself create the most challenge from the tee. It certainly is to your advantage if you have played the course to understand this, the elevation change is some 23 feet uphill from tee to green.  

9th Hole - The bunker on this hole has generated quite a bit of discussion. Most either hate or love it with few in between. As we were building this hole and the more time I spent on the property, the ravine for me became less of a strategic element and more the defining edge of a dramatic setting. As such I felt that the hole should be looked at from the perspective of what challenges should be presented in and around the complex itself. The green is more than 40 yards wide and almost 29 yards deep, a target larger than many fairways I have seen. I felt the elevation change plus the distance made the bunker possible because even for those players using the back tee and potentially hitting 3 wood, the ball would be descending in its flight. Personally, from the rear tee I have always found that playing out to the right side of the green was the best play, the ball then works back into the green.

14th Hole - The left side pin location on this hole is well protected by what is the only bunker on the hole at the left front of the green. Based on your comments I would say that it has been succesful because it has caused you to think through the options. Long hitters actually have the option of going at this side of the green because at 60 plus feet in depth it can hold a mid iron shot. For others the choice is to play it safe and run into the open right side or try and turn it over a little and feed the ball down the slope. One of the main goals in the design of this course was to create options at every turn, I think this brings people back and makes the course fun to play.

18th Hole - One of the difficult things in working with a property with dramatic coast line and stunning views is that not all the holes can be on the coast or have the best view and while the 18th tee has a great view behind you of Lake Michigan, it is playing away from this vista. I had noted in a previous thread that the Arcadia course can actually be played in four different routings. Two of them have the current 18th as the finishing hole and the others have the current 11th as the finish. The routing change proposed for next year will continue to have the current 18th as the finish. Having said all that the debate will rage on as to whether it is a solid finish. I like the tee shot and think that it has a big impact on peoples perception of the hole. The center bunker requires a decsion as to the line of play. Hit it right and yes you will be blind into the green, but remember you chose the safe tee shot. Trying to fly the bunker will give you the best angle for the biggest risk. Working it left of the bunker will open up the view into the hole but it will leave you with an even greater uphill shot. Similar to the 6th hole and due to the 42 feet of uphill elevation change, the green was set up to be very receptive. Once on the suface the contours are the cahllenge.

10th Hole - To correct you, only 18 feet of the middle section of this green, which is 60 feet deep, breaks away from play. The back right section drains through the middle and out the front. To take advantage of the slope of the green it is best to play either right or left of the bunker.  

TimW:

The decision to combine two distinct bunker styles was not something I took lightly. I anticipated that it might be criticized by some but I arrived at the decision after careful study of many of the great bunkers from other courses. The one thing that stood out to me was when stacked sod or timbers were used to shore eroded areas of bunkers that it was this contrast of materials that appealed to me. The large waste area on hole 2 was the genesis of this concept. From the tees the bunker works through native grasses, sand and plants to ultimately work into the right side of the green. It was at its termination at the green where I worked the sod wall effect into play. My intention was not to create a look alike effect of other bunkers I had seen but rather to go one step further in the creation of something unique. The fescue blow out style bunkers are for the most part worked into the surrounding hillsides while the more formal sod wall bunkers are worked into the rolls in the fairways or greens. There is some deviation of this for variety.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2003, 02:23:32 PM »
Warren:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the bunkers at Arcadia. My playing partner Dick Daley loved the variety, but it wasn't my favorite concept. Maybe I'm too conservative.

By contrast, I enjoyed pretty much everything on #18, including the tee shot, the approach and the green. It's a demanding hole that I enjoyed to close out the round. My vote would have been to leave it alone.

Very nice of you to address the other issues raised by ChrisB.
Tim Weiman

CHrisB

Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2003, 08:38:47 PM »
Warren,

Thanks for taking the time to comment and I feel I have a better understanding of what I saw on my first look at Arcadia Bluffs. Again, instead of "what I didn't like" it really should be called "what I didn't like as much as what I really liked!", because overall I was tremendously impressed and enjoyed the experience thoroughly (what was interesting, too, is that I actually played all of the holes on the "what I didn't like" list pretty well...I just didn't like them as much as the others). And actually I liked the bunker on #9 and think it is perfectly placed; with the drop in elevation I was able to hit 5-wood and hold the green comfortably.

But I don't think there's a course anywhere about which I like everything, and in every fair review you have to include those things that didn't turn you on as much as the rest. I hope you took note of all of the things I thought were done very well! (But I understand paying more attention to the negatives; I tend to do that in my own golf game.)

I'd agree with you that on #6 the biggest challenge is negotiating the green contours; next time I'll have a better understanding of what's up there. Regarding the 18th, I would much prefer to play it as a finishing hole than #11.

Congratulations on your effort there.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2003, 11:49:43 PM »
Warren:

Can you share the approximate budget to build Arcadia?

I had heard the number was far less than the $30-40 million reportedly spent on Whistling Straits.
Tim Weiman

Warren_Henderson

Re:Arcadia Bluffs - wow
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2003, 11:58:20 AM »
Tim:

I make it a habit to avoid discussing the specifics of a client's financial commitment to a project without their consent. However, I will say that including the land cost, clubhouse, maintenance facility and golf course construction the Arcadia project comes in at less than half the rumored 30 million dollar low end of Whistling Straits.

The owners of Arcadia got into this project because of their love of golf but it is their success as business men that created the opportunity. A stand alone golf operation such as Arcadia could not financially survive with the type of numbers suggested for Whistling.