[Mark McKeever]

Where was and 9 pinned and on which greens?

Mark

[Chris Roselle]

Where was and 9 pinned and on which greens?

Mark

Mark, I believe you are asking about 8 & 9 and we utilized both left greens on these holes.  The right green on 8 was very stressed and the left green on 9 is one we always use.  The hole location on 8 was back right and one 9 it was middle left.

[Mark Chaplin]

18 playing hardest hole kinda shoots down the bring back the pimple argument.

[JMEvensky]

18 playing hardest hole kinda shoots down the bring back the pimple argument.

I see what you did there--you're just going to force him into a multi-colored rebuttal.

[Mark Chaplin]

I'd prefer an answer rather than 5 questions though!

[Tim Martin]

I'd prefer an answer rather than 5 questions though!

Mark-Could you provide 5 reasons why they should not bring the pimple back?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here are the results:

http://www.gapgolf.org/charts.asp?sfile=static/archive/2012_open_championship_results.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

18 playing hardest hole kinda shoots down the bring back the pimple argument.

Not at all.

It played the hardest due to it's length, not because of the putting surface, which is one of the most benign on the golf course.

Of all the rounds played on # 18,  play from the new back tee probably represents less than 1 %.
In addition, those playing that back tee represent the best 1 %, hence 99+% of the golf played on 18 is played from the regular and Senior tees by average, not exceptional golfers.

Crump conceived, designed and built that hole with a putting surface with a functional internal feature.
He always intended for that putting surface to have a functional internal feature.

If you had a good degree of familiarity with the hole/putting surface you would understand Crump's intent.

With the diminishment/alteration of the 2nd and 5th greens, it would be welcome improvement to the 18th green

To posture that the hole doesn't need that functional internal feature because scores were high from a new, very long back tee, played into the wind, under tournament conditions at a time of year where little in the way of roll was available, would seem to indicate how little you know about Crump's intent, PV and the 18th hole

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris and John,

6,900 par 70 isn't a short course by any means, especially at this time of year in that location.

[Mark Chaplin]

Patrick in an earlier post you told me I didn't know what I was talking about as Crump designed a competition course for the best players and wasn't interested in the average golfer and ladies. Now you go on about regular and senior tees and the 99% of average not exceptional golfers.

You cannot have it both ways was it designed for the exceptional player or the average player or a bit of both?

Ps - I know I can reach the fairway off the back tee and I'm a knackered 11 handicap player, who likes rare roast beef and good claret.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick in an earlier post you told me I didn't know what I was talking about as Crump designed a competition course for the best players and wasn't interested in the average golfer and ladies.

That's correct, you don't know what you're talking about.

Now you go on about regular and senior tees and the 99% of average not exceptional golfers.

That's also correct.

What you fail to understand, not surprisingly, is that things change over 100 years.
PV went from a very limited number of local members to, some say, close to 1,000 members from all over the world.
It went from a local club to a national and international club.

You cannot have it both ways was it designed for the exceptional player or the average player or a bit of both?

Who says I can't have it both ways ?

What it was intended for and what it has evolved into are two different things seperated by a hundred years and alot of new championship tees.

Ps - I know I can reach the fairway off the back tee and I'm a knackered 11 handicap player, who likes rare roast beef and good claret.

Into the wind, I'll bet you can't reach the fairway.
And, if you could reach the fairway, the approach shot from just on the fairway, to the green is probably beyond the reach of most, including you, which directly impacts the scoring average, especially when you consider the water hazard and penalties associated with it and their impact on scoring average.

Your implied declaration, that a hole with a high scoring average, based solely on a two day tournament, needs no architectural amendments, is absurd, especially on # 18 at PV where we have proof of Crump's intentions.  Afterall, he conceived, designed and built his intentions right into the putting surface.

It's likely that the high scoring average had more to do with the inability to reach the fairway and/or the green in regulation.

And, if you were remotely familiar with that green you'd understand it's rather bland, unchallenging nature, especially when compared to all of the other greens, with the possible exception of # 14.

Stick to a subject where you have a reasonable degree of familiarity.

[Brian Colbert]

Pat and Mark,

In both rounds of the Open I hit 6-iron into the 18th green, and both times found myself on the back edge. I hesitate to think of myself as a long player. After putting out I waited around and watched a good 8 groups come through that hole, all of whom had at least one player right of the fairway. I felt that the length of the hole definitely contributed to the scoring but it was also the severity of missing the fairway. If you are off the fairway you have absolutely no chance to reach the green on your second shot. The elevation of the green combined with playing your approach off the downslope also makes it a rather difficult shot to execute even from the rough.

The carry to reach the fairway from the back tee is daunting for sure. No problem for any of the players in the field but the average 10 handicapper has no chance of reaching the green in two shots.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

I think you bring up A very good point.

Namely, that approaching that green with a short to medium iron isn't nearly as difficult as approaching from further back off that downhill-sidehill lie, with a far less lofted club.

The added tee length alters the degree of difficulty, exponentially

[Brian Colbert]

Pat,

Though I have never played from the forward tees at Pine Valley, I believe that 18 from the members tee is too pedestrian for top players. At 425 yards (per the scorecard) the approach would be between a sand wedge and an 8 iron for most of the field. I think it's a fair assessment that the reason for the difficulty on the 18th hole is the length. From the rough on either side of the fairway it is nearly impossible to hit that green from 200 yards, but from say, 130, it is an executable shot.

[Mark McKeever]

Brian,

Thanks for the points of reference.  I agree that it's a good "championship tee" back there.


Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

I'm curious about your opinion of # 14 from all the way back.

Do you find the hole more intimidating than # 5 ?

[Brian Colbert]

Pat,

I think that 14 is less intimidating than 5. I have made two double bogeys in three attempts at hole number 5 and I have made three pars in three attempts at hole 14. Granted, they moved the tee up for the Open, but it's still a 4-iron from all the way back. I also think the width of that green is such that there's no reason to ever miss it. However, I like to play a soft draw (something which probably costs me about 3 shots per round out there) so it's easy to start it on the right edge of the green and let my natural ball flight take over. The straight ball finds its way into a pretty benign bunker. On #5 it is extremely difficult to get myself to aim at the right edge of that green when certain death awaits the dreaded straight ball. So the short answer is that 5 is more intimidating than 14 to me. This is certainly not a universal opinion and my guess is it would be about an even split if you asked the field.

[Mark McKeever]

Brian,

I imagine that front right side pin on 5 didnt make your life any easier.

Mark

[Brian Colbert]

Mark,

That pin was fine. Looking back on it, the play was just to hit to the front edge and get up and down if short. There was 1 birdie the whole day. I was on the back edge of the green in the first round and three-putted, There's just no way to get it close from above the hole on that green.

[Mark McKeever]

Funny you mention that playing strategy of missing short and trying you chances getting up and down.  Tom Paul has a thread on here somehwere about playing the hole that exact same way.

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

The 5th green has been softened.

Brian,

The back tee is somewhere around 230 on # 14.
granted it's downhill, but there's no bail-out area compared to # 5, it's purely a pass/fail type of hole

[Ed Brzezowski]

Pat,

Sort of the same situation at Merion?? Watched the old SWWofG video before going over on Monday. Those putts on five would have been in the cottoncandy booth over at the amusement park.  Nice to have some video of when the speeds were less than supersonic.

ed

[JSlonis]

The 5th green has been softened.

Brian,

The back tee is somewhere around 230 on # 14.
granted it's downhill, but there's no bail-out area compared to # 5, it's purely a pass/fail type of hole

Pat,

The back tee on #14 is about 210 to 220 usually.  It may be 230 from the back part of the tee to a very back pin but it never plays that long.

In normal conditions it plays at least 15 yards shorter due to the downhill.  I hit 5 iron from that back tee a majority of the time.  I think #5 plays much tougher day in and day out.  It's uphill and usually into the wind, playing 220-240 yards.

[archie_struthers]

 

Even with the new tees on 14, five is a lot tougher.  The green is so,so much more difficult!   Just getting on the green doesn't guarantee anything on 5 , whereas on 14 there isn't any really tough putt.  Architecturally I'm not fond of the back tee on 14, but it's certainly not the terror that 5 can be.

As a caddie 14 was always the hardest hole , as the wind swirls and you can not figure it until someone fires the first salvo.  Thank goodness Pine Valley isn't a windy place . If it was , I'd reverse my position as to difficulty, despite the green being benevolent.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie, Brian & Jamie,

It seems to me that while # 5 may be a harder birdie or par, it seems like on # 14 it's easier to make a double or higher.

Was there a drop area on # 14 ?

Was there one on # 5 ?

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