The Architecture of Royal Lytham.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Have you played there?

What I find really curious is the lack of discussion on HERE about the architecture. I can't recall a major where the course has hardly been discussed.

I played there last year and came away feeling it was completely one dimensional with bunkers here, bunkers there, bunkers every  bloody where.

However on TV I realised I was so beaten down that I failed to notice is it gets much more interesting from 8 on.   Although the over bunkering continues, there’s more variety, elevation change and strategic blindness.

Overall it made for good TV viewing but not as good as last years course.

[Mac Plumart]

I haven't played it.  But watching it on tv, I, obviously, noted the bunkers.  In fact, they had a commercial about the history of the Open and showed Player hitting shots into 18 green.  What was neat about that is that those riveted/pot bunkers weren't riveted at that time.  So, you could see how the bunkers evolved over time.

I also thought the greens were Pinehurst-esque with their apparent domed shapes.

[Marty Bonnar]

Mac,
sorry, but that particular mis-spell drives me MENTAL!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivet

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revet

best,
MB.

[Mac Plumart]

Mac,
sorry, but that particular mis-spell drives me MENTAL!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivet

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revet

best,
MB.

Sorry Marty...sorry for not using that mis-spelling MORE OFTEN!!  

[Marty Bonnar]

Bud,
I'm already more than mental enough. I really don't need any more mental images of 'Rosie the Revetter' building her little turf walls for the war effort...

F.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_the_Riveter

[Marty Bonnar]

Tony,
sorry for the stupid diversion from a really decent question.
I've been a bit of a Slave to the Lytham and succumbed more than a little to the Lytham of the Night. But then again, Lytham is a Dancer so Hit Me With your Lytham Stick.
I'll stop now. Good taste must prevail and Work in the morning looms...
CHECK YOUR PM'S!!!

best,
F.

[Michael Whitaker]

Tony,

I played Lytham & St Annes with Andrew Mitchell a few years ago. It was pouring rain the whole day, as a result my head was down and I don't remember a great deal about the course... except that, as you say, there were bunkers EVERYWHERE! It was a lovely place and of obvious "championship" quality... but, all the bunkers were overwhelming to me. The Butcher, on the other hand, relished the weather and played a wonderful round, scoring in the high 70's, as I remember.

I'd like another go at the place in decent weather. I've found that I rarely have a good memory of course details after playing in poor weather. I think it is because one tends to look at the ground when the rain is pelting, rather than looking around at your surroundings with your head up.

[Jason Topp]

It appeared there were lines across many of the fairways at regular intervals.  Does anyone know what those lines were?  I at first guessed irrigation but I highly doubt that has been turned on much this year.

[Josh Tarble]

It looked to me that the course was a great design for a championship setup but to play on a daily basis would be a long, hard slog.  Especially if the wind was up.

[John Kavanaugh]

As I so correctly stated at the beginning of the week Lytham is the UK's equivalent of Torrey Pines.

[William_G]

It appeared there were lines across many of the fairways at regular intervals.  Does anyone know what those lines were?  I at first guessed irrigation but I highly doubt that has been turned on much this year.

drainage

[Michael Whitaker]

It appeared there were lines across many of the fairways at regular intervals.  Does anyone know what those lines were?  I at first guessed irrigation but I highly doubt that has been turned on much this year.

"Rigs and Furrows." They can be found on numerous courses in England.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rig_and_furrow

[Andrew Summerell]

Tony,

I’ve played it a few times & regard it highly. Yes, it is over-bunkered by some standards, but the course works well & offers more options than initially obvious.

RL&A would fall into my new category of ‘Bunker Negotiation Architecture.’ You generally have many options off the tee, whether you play short, around or over fairway bunkers, and being on the correct side of the fairway is important on many holes. Of course, when people see that many bunkers the word 'Penal' automatically comes out of their mouth, but I don't consider RL&A to be overly penal.

I’ve heard (or read) many say it’s the weak link of The Open rota, but I would place it squarely in the middle of the Open courses, considering easily better than Royal Troon, Royal Liverpool & Royal Birkdale.

[Dan King]

I played it three times back in the 1990s.  Watching it on TV, I was a little surprised at how little of it I remember. All three of my rounds were in very tough wind, twice of the prevailing variety and once in the opposite direction. It was a fun course to play, but much more intimidating off the tee than other Open or links courses I've played. I don't have too much problem with the numerous greenside bunkers, but the fairway bunkers were automatic penalties and tough to stay out of when the wind is howling. The numerous fairway bunkers were fun when watching the pros play, but I sure wouldn't like a steady diet of those for my regular game.

Cheers,
Dan King

He must have left a hole out.
 --Hale Irwin (on Seve Ballesteros shooting a 16 in the last 5 holes of the 1979 British Open at Royal Lytham and St. Annes)

[Tom MacWood]

A good number of those bunkers came as a result of a major redesigned carried out by Colt, I believe around 1919 or 1920, and they've removed about 100 of those bunkers. At one time they had more than 300 bunkers. Colt was the original Open doctor, carrying out significant redesigns of Lytham, Hoylake and Muirfield prior to Opens.

[Steve Salmen]

I played 36 one day at Lytham in 1994.  I remember thinking that the 10th hole was the neatest on the course at roughly 325 yds.  Looking at the hole from the blimp cam, made me remember what a really great hole it is.  Blind off the tee but with many options.  Driver can be used but must be hit straight. Tiger pulled it off Sunday, Graeme did not.

[Jason Thurman]

How well can you evaluate architecture from TV? I feel like I "get" some courses pretty well from watching them televised, but Lytham isn't one of them.

All I can really tell you about the course after four days is that the 10th tee shot looks awesome and I like the bunkering in the landing area at 18. Also, the greens look pretty dull.

I just had a hard time getting a grasp of the course. I watched four days at Olympic and thought the place seemed amazing, but I can't tell you after four days of Lytham whether I even think I liked it or not.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I played Lytham quite a lot in the 80s and 90s, often with Tony Nickson, twice past Captain and author of the Lytham centenary book. In those days I was off between 11 and 13 handicap and played to it. I hit a drive 250 yards and a 7 iron 150. From the members' medal tees the course was manageable as long as you didn't hit too many fairway bunkers. Unfortunately there were fairway bunkers at just about every length off the tee, ready to swallow up good players, bad players and all in between.

True, it is a flat course, and yet it isn't. There are all sorts of humps and hollows, little shaved swales off the green, and all sorts of uphill, downhill and sidehill lies on fairways such as the 15th. Royal Zoute reminds me of Lytham in that it is an inland course with no sight of the sea and yet it has all the characteristics of a true links. Both courses are surrounded by housing. But, as I say of Seaton Carew, once you get out on the course you don't notice the surroundings.

Of the English Open courses (and I played them all in the days when I could survive on a golf course) Royal St George's was the most intimidating and Royal Lytham the most unforgiving. I suppose, like most Open courses, Lytham has had its design tweaked every time it has held an Open, and it must be difficult to account for who may have contributed this feature or that.

The greens are not as dull as some of you might make out. Having survived a journey through Hades to get the to the greens you are glad they are not eccentric. Perhaps someone could dig up some putting statistics comparing Lytham with other Open Championship courses. We might then learn how good (or otherwise) these greens are. Remember the criticism of the new greens at Hoylake put in for its last Open? They were criticised for being out of character with the rest of the course for being too interesting! (They are being rebuilt).

Opportunities to play R Lytham as a visitor are expensive and infrequent. If you are paying that sort of money should you not be looking for the positives rather than the negatives? If you own a Ferrari or a Lamborghini it probably has some (or many) shortcomings, but don't you just relish the noise of its engine? Top athletes are rarely perfect. Lytham is a pretty top athlete.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mark thank you for your analysis.

Lytham scores for me in that it is of it’s own style. I know of no links course remotely like it. You know what you're going to get and you get it in spades. Reading Tom MacWoods post, 300 bunkers, amazing!

However you do have to say it fails to be playable for anyone who can’t it straight. A challenge for the high and low handicappers is often cited as a good definition of a great course, and Lytham manifestly fails.  I would also say that even after watching quite a bit this past weekend, I cannot distinguish the Par 4’s on the way out. (With the noted exception of 8 where the cameras don’t’ do the elevation change justice.)

My only ambition in Golf has been to play ALL the Open venues, so I had to do it.  Lytham is the kind of course I’m pleased to have played once. If an invitation came I’d go back, but I’m not paying the full fee again.  This might be another case of Green Fee inflation in the short term, killing the repeat play that could lead to a greater appreciation of the course.  Open Rota courses can get away with it, but lesser courses might find visitors drying up if they try to match the green fees of their famous neighbours.

[Kalen Braley]

Based on what I saw on TV...when/if I make it to GB, I can't say it would ever appear on any wish list of mine.

I don't see the glory of putting in penal bunkers everywhere just for the sake of eventually fubar'ing rounds of good and bad players alike.  I don't see the brilliance in building a brute of a course by making the fairways narrow, the length long, and installing 10-15 bunkers on every hole...

[Sean_A]

I am of the camp which believes the greens are fine - there is enough happening to be interesting.  There is a lot of lovely rolling terrain.  But if a course needs 200 bunkers something is very wrong.  Sorry, I can't call this a great design even though it is obviously a good championship test.  For mine, Lytham is the bottom course on the Open Rota, just behind Troon and Troon tops it because of The Postage Stamp.  Sorry, it takes more than covering ground with bunkers to create a great course. That said, for the pros, the course offered a lot of birdie and bogey opportunities and thats good viewing. 

Ciao

[John Kirk]

I noticed some long green to tee walks for on holes 2 and 3, but the member's tees on those holes are right next to the green.  It looks like fun, if played from the right yardage, which for me looks like 6000-6300 yards.

The greens appeared full of random internal contours, and it seemed they were relatively difficult to read.

Strange Open.  I thought the first three days were pretty boring, followed by a tense, exciting finish.

[Eric Smith]

I was only able to watch a little of the Open on Sunday and thought it to be very much a championship worthy course and wondered where it ranked on the current GOLF list. Just as I was about to look it up I thought I recalled seeing Lytham up there near the top of Ran's list when he posted in Sean's Top 20 In England thread, which I verified when I found the thread (linked below).

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50101.msg1136750.html#msg1136750

[Wade Schueneman]

I played 36 one day at Lytham in 1994.  I remember thinking that the 10th hole was the neatest on the course at roughly 325 yds.  Looking at the hole from the blimp cam, made me remember what a really great hole it is.  Blind off the tee but with many options.  Driver can be used but must be hit straight. Tiger pulled it off Sunday, Graeme did not.

Steve,

I was fascinated by the 10th last weekend.  ust think, a short hole that not only asks you whether you want to hit iron, 3 wood or driver but also asks you to carefully shape and flight whatever club you pick.  Width is generally great on a golf course, but I like a few quirky, tight holes like this per round.  Maybe target golf holes should be used for a good change of pace.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I just read in Donald Steel's book quoting an old Horace Hutchinson article that the large dunes crossing the entire course at the 7th and the 11th were expertly constructed, in Steel's view by Herbert Fowler...

I'm unfamiliar with the course... This may be well known... Either way, it's about the architecture and I just read it... so I thought I'd post it here...